| Time | Speaker | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00.47 | Unknown | A lot of people are doing Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. |
| 00:00:08.87 | Jonathon Goldman | Good. |
| 00:00:09.62 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:00:10.09 | Jonathon Goldman | I met him. |
| 00:00:32.28 | Jonathon Goldman | on. |
| 00:00:35.87 | Jonathon Goldman | They have. |
| 00:00:39.65 | Jonathon Goldman | Yes, although the microphone can also rove. That's okay. Worse things have happened. |
| 00:00:45.91 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:00:54.60 | Jonathon Goldman | Yes. |
| 00:01:09.17 | Unknown | Thank you. . Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:01:27.46 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:54.97 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:02:19.03 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. I'll do my best. |
| 00:02:26.32 | Unknown | This is your million dollars. |
| 00:02:30.72 | Jonathon Goldman | Oh, yeah. |
| 00:02:31.08 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:02:35.75 | Jonathon Goldman | If we could all get started, There you go. |
| 00:02:45.41 | Jonathon Goldman | We'll give folks a chance to sign in, maybe get something to eat and drink, and then have a seat. I'm happy to rearrange chairs if anybody can't see or... Feels like they're being impeded. Ha, ha, ha. |
| 00:03:08.41 | Jonathon Goldman | That's going to go off with you standing there. |
| 00:03:10.28 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:03:10.31 | Unknown | THANK YOU. Bye. |
| 00:03:10.65 | Unknown | What's this? Thank you. |
| 00:03:11.81 | Jonathon Goldman | . |
| 00:03:11.85 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:03:11.87 | Unknown | I'm not going to be a good one. |
| 00:03:12.39 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:03:14.67 | Jonathon Goldman | I can move it. |
| 00:03:15.19 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:03:15.21 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:03:30.26 | Jonathon Goldman | Richard, if you're going to talk, I'll give you the mic. |
| 00:03:35.68 | Jonathon Goldman | My name is Jonathan Goldman. I am the Director of Public Works for the City of Sausalito. I'd like to welcome you all here this morning. We're here for a couple of reasons. Certainly to welcome visitors and guests that are interested in Sausalito in general and the technologies that we're demonstrating here today. So I encourage you to enjoy yourselves, enjoy some refreshments. We have demonstrations from the representatives of two different technologies. Um, Clarence Labar will talk about their Um, kind of. proximity detecting audio advisory or warning device. And then Tim Cox is here to talk about his pedestrian barricade system. I know they both have demonstrations planned. Thank you. This really is an opportunity for two-way communication and Questions and concerns and testing and manipulating are all a benefit to all of us. This is a kind of an eclectic group of both manufacturing professionals, public works, and other professionals who have responsibilities for construction and other activities that take place in the public right-of-way, as well as both advocates for and disabled people, and in at least one case, they're helper dogs. So again, I'd like to welcome you, encourage you to ask questions at any point. And at this point, I'd like to turn it over to Mr. Labar to talk about his Richard. |
| 00:05:44.80 | Richard Scapp | Right on. Speak slowly, Soy. Thank you. I want to welcome all of you today. This is a joint effort between the city of Sausalito and Jonathan Goldman, the director of public works and myself. I'm the executive director of designing accessible communities. I spent 15 years with the city of San Francisco events like this. not events like this, project efforts like this to push the envelope on products that could benefit people with disabilities and the general population in the built environment. And I really wanted to personally, the reason I took the microphone away from Jonathan, I wanted to thank him. personally for Um, taking an opportunity, taking a chance, in an effort like this to put Sausalito on the spot. And on the map. Not that it isn't already. but to have some products that, um, I know I've been working on for years. become part of the, um, public right away and the use of products that haven't been accessible in the past. Here's an example to my left. And I'm hoping People on the internet can see what we have. We have two or three different types of barricades set up. One is the traditional A-frame and yellow tape caution tape barricade, and the other is the new products we'll be talking about today. We also have a sign system for people who are blind or have limited vision to explain what has changed in the path of travel in a construction site. Um, So, We have a great opportunity here today to see some new products that manufacturers have created and have been responsive to the needs of our communities Again, thank you, Jonathan. Thanks, Sausalito. And thank you all for being here today. |
| 00:07:59.15 | Clarence LeBar | I'd like to thank you as well for her coming out this morning and i'd like to thank jonathan for hosting us and richard scapp for putting it all together My name is Clarence LeBar. And we are a manufacturer of portable warning lights. We've been doing the traffic safety warning lights for 30 some years now. And, uh, about six or seven years ago were asked to come up with something for the visually impaired, some audible information device. And so that's what I actually, right here today and I'm going to do I guess I'll go around. |
| 00:08:36.61 | Clarence LeBar | Anyhow, this is a portable device that you could program up to 60 seconds, whatever is going on in the situation. So if there's a sidewalk closure and you need to get The pedestrians across on the other side. Or if the sidewalk is under construction and you're just rerouting them out onto the street. Or you just want to let the pedestrians know that there's danger ahead and just to be careful. A couple of different scenarios, bus stops are moved, anything that maybe has disrupted that is normally there. you could program into this light. And I'll go through some of the features of it. It's kicking off on me here. We just did a test on it. Turned the volume down. Okay. Basically, it's got a motion detector on the front that once you get within 15 feet of it, it'll trigger whatever message you've got programmed into it. Within the light itself, there's a microphone and a speaker. and some buttons that allow you to record and to play back your message. So for example, Um, We could say whatever we want to say. Right now we're demonstrating the ADA light, the model 400 ML, to a group of people in the city of Sausalito. Now, obviously I'm going too fast for this, but just to give you an idea. |
| 00:09:58.74 | Unknown | you |
| 00:10:07.24 | Clarence LeBar | And there's adjustable volume control so that once you get the light out into the field, you can adjust the volume to the ambient noise that's out there to better communicate what's going on to that situation. I'm trying to say it here. Anyhow, you can see it's triggered by the motion detector. And like I said, you can program whatever you want to say. |
| 00:10:25.08 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 00:10:31.70 | Clarence LeBar | There's some handouts that were given out to you as far as what kind of messages do you communicate to pedestrians as they're going through their various routes There's some research that has been done And Janet Barlow from Accessible Design for the Blind has put together this summary. Hopefully you all got one when you came in. If not, make sure you get one before you leave. But we've got it in various formats, standard print, large print, Braille, and also audio. But basically, three scenarios that pedestrian would come across as they're going through a construction zone Um, The sidewalk is totally blocked. and they need to cross the other side. or the sidewalk is just altered and, you know, just some information on how, it's altered, Or, like I say, just a warning. And she's got some examples here of what to say, what not to say. Um, We've actually pre-recorded one here. I don't know if Art, if you can go over and turn that up. But what some of the examples point out is to mention intersections. And then... How many blocks is the sidewalk closed? And also what to do. Should they cross over? Where should they cross over? How long is it closed so they can know to come back Just different information. But anyhow, that's on the hand that's before you. And hopefully we got it turned up. |
| 00:12:00.97 | Unknown | Thank you. Alternate path on opposite side of road. Pass to the other side of the next area section. Thank you. |
| 00:12:14.99 | Clarence LeBar | That's my voice, but... There's debate as to whether you should have a female voice or a male voice. And on the back of that, there's some research that's been done There's been research that's been done And I don't think it's really conclusive because, well, I think for the most part a female voice is better, but that's my opinion. But like I said, there's no conclusive answers as to whether it should be female or male. The one thing that is important, though, when you do the recording, is that you're in a room that's quiet, with no ambient noise. and you get a clear recording and to be very slow and succinct and Thank you. clear with what you're saying. that's about it. One thing I didn't mention is that actually the federal manual on uniform traffic control devices, which is basically the viable for the people that are out doing the road construction or your traffic signals, your striping on the side of the roads, your pavement markers, all that. There's a Bible, it's a federally produced Bible, essentially a manual on uniform traffic control devices. And in there, there's a chapter 6 that deals with road construction, and then part D deals with pedestrians. And it's actually recommended, it's not a standard, but it's a guidance suggestion that especially when you do mid-block closures or you're changing the crosswalks, that the best way to communicate to the visually impaired is through a voice audible message. And so essentially this light does meet that need. Yes. |
| 00:13:55.72 | Clarence LeBar | Yes. It really depends on how many times it's triggered, but you're probably going to get 30 days out of it, about a month. Yes, yes. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yes, we're asked how long do these lights last on a set of batteries. It's two six-volt batteries and depends on how many times really it's triggered by the motion detector, but you should get about 30 days out of it. |
| 00:14:26.21 | Clarence LeBar | There's. |
| 00:14:31.74 | Richard Scapp | As Clarence said, the MUTCD does have a statement about the need for verbal signage, that a flat painted sign works for the general public but not for somebody who is either blind or has limited vision. Um, It is my interpretation and I realize at this point in my life I have no authority but it is my interpretation of the Americans with Disabilities Act that as Title II entities or Title III businesses there has to be a level of equivalency in what is done that serves the public. And if the public is being served by signage, at a construction site. then it is my interpretation that all Title II entities must, not should, but must, have an alternate way for people with any type of disability. that use the same routes that are being signed they must have an alternate method, whether it's somebody standing there telling them that there's a change in the path of travel, or a speak out sign like the EMCO light sign we have here today. But it is not a suggestion. It can't be a suggestion. We can't just say to a blind pedestrians, Well, you know, we've changed a couple of blocks from here. We've changed the path of travel. Good luck. We have signage for everybody else, but you're just going to have to figure it out yourself. That's not acceptable, especially, you know, it could be an argument if there were no products available that could actually do what's necessary. But now we have one product. I don't know of any others, otherwise I'd have them here today. But now that we have a product on the market that does what it does and that is it provides a message that explains a change of route to a blind pedestrian or a pedestrian with limited vision. I don't believe there's any way that a public entity can say that they don't need to use it. And I'm not here to sell the product. I don't sell. products. through this process and others that I do, I am trying to assure that everybody is able to function in the built environment. And a person who is blind, who has expectations of a standard path of travel, that all of a sudden faces a complete change to that path of travel, that could be very disconcerting. and very confusing. And so we must find a way, and we have found a way. This is the way. And I assume as this becomes more and more used in the public right away, this system. Other manufacturers probably will catch on and say, hmm. Maybe we ought to do something about providing a speak out type of sign. So I think it's important to understand that you have to look carefully at the federal civil rights regulation. |
| 00:17:42.97 | Richard Scapp | Thank you. |
| 00:17:46.92 | Gene Lozano | Okay, thank you. This is Gene Lozano with the California Council of the Blind. A question and then a few brief comments. The question is, Does. Does the device have a sensor that measures the ambient noise so that depending on the volume of ambient noise, it would vary the volume of the output announcement? |
| 00:18:18.83 | Clarence LeBar | Oh. No, it doesn't have a mechanism in there to adjust to the ambient noise automatically. |
| 00:18:29.22 | Clarence LeBar | It has to be controlled manually, but there is a volume control in it. So once you get it out on the job site and attach it to the devices, you could adjust the volume with a little Allen wrench that Art had earlier, that he adjusted that light in front of you to change the volume control, the volume loudness. |
| 00:18:58.40 | Gene Lozano | Okay. It probably would raise the cost, but perhaps that's something the R&D section might want to look at. It may reduce any One of the oppositions you might have that sometimes we face with accessible pedestrian signals Um. So I guess that's a comment. Other would be that It'd be really useful to do and A part of the project where there's large numbers of blind and visually impaired individuals, where this could be done in a construction site to get them in a real environment, to try it out and help develop the I know Janet Barlow, extremely qualified and knowledgeable individual, but to get the messages like left and right is still important to know when it's aimed at. as you're approaching the device that it tells you you need to go to the other side of the intersection so that you know that it's to your right or left, so that it has that information to provide that additional orientation cues. Um, And then, too, further going along, this I could see being very useful. in training facilities like the Orientation Center for the Blind or maybe San Francisco State's Orientation Mobility Training Program where there could be locations set up so that people could get some training at Partisan Orientation Mobility. on those things. Um. And I know the Council would like to be very involved in seeing that these devices and similar other products like these, um, go through the evaluation and us participating and helping out in developing the messages. And we hope, like if you're giving out packets, I'm hoping that both companies will be able to attend our upcoming conference and convention in May, our membership that statewide can get some more, get exposure to this. Thank you very much. |
| 00:21:20.56 | Clarence LeBar | There has been some research done, but I agree with you. I think more research would be good. The most recent one was the Texas Transportation Institute. Brooke Ullman did a study with a number of visually impaired people and just tried in-class examples first and then actually took them out into the real world. and had them go through various situations. And actually, one of the handouts that was given out references her research and her suggestions. But communicating to the visually impaired, the intersections is important. Distance is important in terms of blocks versus feet. Miles. and various other things that she came up with. But I agree with you, more needs to be done with this area. Now, one thing that has been done on a federal level is we've had two federally sponsored and actually, I don't know, American Traffic Safety Service Association, which is what some of the manufacturers that make the traffic related products belong to, and we had a joint sponsorship in two different locations and actually one recently sponsored by Minnesota DOT. But again, just the idea of getting the community together, manufacturers as well as visually impaired and setting up mock work zones and getting feedback. And that was very helpful. And as a result of that, actually, Tim Cox, when he comes on, he can maybe talk about that. But these devices that you see in front of you are as a result of those research projects that we've done. Yes, Spector. |
| 00:23:22.97 | Richard Scapp | Gene you brought up some very good points with regard to the the ambient noise issue. I think it is something that needs to be looked at. I'm less concerned I would be less concerned with this as a noise issue in neighborhoods than I would with a permanently installed accessible head signal. because of the difference. One is a temporary, usually Usually, not always, usually, Very short-lived. The other is a permanent installation. And that doesn't mean, Gene, I'm not suggesting that you're wrong. I'm just saying that I think it's less of an issue. based on experience that may come to the forefront and it may become a very big issue depending on where these are placed. I would hope that residents would understand that it is a temporary situation. And it's not something they would have to live with for long periods of time. Anyway, good points, Gene. Thank you. And actually, |
| 00:24:32.05 | Clarence LeBar | Actually, I'm sorry. I just realized I didn't answer your question, Gene, but actually our engineers are looking into making that possible. Thank you. |
| 00:24:42.97 | Richard Scapp | Thank you. and I'm up to speed on ambient noise. |
| 00:24:47.49 | Clarence LeBar | What does that mean? Well, the ambient noise is the noise that is around your particular area where you're at. The noise we hear just heard a car go by, so that's ambient noise. |
| 00:24:48.14 | Richard Scapp | What is that? |
| 00:24:57.48 | Clarence LeBar | And so there are devices out there that I guess could sense that noise. apart from the noise that's given off by the Audible Information Device, and then control... how loud the audible information device would be. And actually we are working on that. The only real negative thing we see on it is just the fact that it's going to use more energy from the batteries and the light may not last as long, but it is something we are considering. |
| 00:25:24.59 | Rob Simon | Thank you. My name is Rob Simon. Thank you. a member of the San Rafael ADA committee and also a blind person. I use a cane rather than than a dog. Thank you. But my question is, is You know, and I walk all over San Rafael mostly and I've experienced, you know, the barricade stuff that Richard talked about. But if this is in a, as I see it in a busy place, as I understand it, it's triggered by motion. not. by somebody walking along with a dog or a stick or something. So every person that walks up to it will trigger the device. So I mean it could be literally if it's a busy place talking all the time. It's like, you know, as somebody walking around blind, How am I going to know that it's not just some background noise and you know it's actually there for me to uh... know that I need to take a different path of travel. If it's a busy place, the thing could literally talk all day long. |
| 00:26:31.17 | Clarence LeBar | Yeah, it could. The thing is, these devices are not autonomous and they're not there by themselves. They're not independent, that's what I'm trying to say. They're actually hooked to other devices. So if you're walking down the sidewalk, chances are what's gonna happen is you're gonna come across a barrier or a barricade that's blocking the sidewalk and then you're going to hear this device and it'll tell you what's going on. So it'll, It'll kind of cause you, I think, to Listen to what's happening. or listening to what the voice is saying. Now that has been our experience with some of these mock workshops that we've set up. |
| 00:27:09.95 | Rob Simon | So it's set up |
| 00:27:10.51 | Clarence LeBar | set up at |
| 00:27:11.24 | Rob Simon | I'm not sure. Obviously. |
| 00:27:13.33 | Clarence LeBar | So it would be set up at like a, you know, |
| 00:27:15.02 | Rob Simon | At the corner where it's so somebody doesn't walk a half a block and have to turn around and go back. |
| 00:27:19.56 | Clarence LeBar | Exactly, yep. There'll be a barricade there. I mean, it's crazy what's out there, what people do. I mean, all of a sudden there's a barricade that says sidewalk closed. |
| 00:27:20.42 | Rob Simon | Thank you. |
| 00:27:28.36 | Clarence LeBar | to, person. can see it's great, but visually impaired, you have no idea what's going on, so you run into this barricade and you go around it, go across the street or wherever and All of a sudden, you know, the sidewalk's closed. So, yeah, by having it in more of an advanced situation, you'd hit the barricade, you'd hear this voice talking to you, and it would tell you what to do, hopefully. |
| 00:27:52.66 | Rob Simon | Thank you. |
| 00:27:53.14 | Clarence LeBar | Thank you. |
| 00:27:59.55 | Eli Gelardon | Thank you. Eli Gelardon with the Marin Center for Independent Women. And my question is, do you have any cities or municipalities or communities who have utilized your device that could perhaps be a reference or provide feedback to other cities and municipalities who are interested? |
| 00:28:17.05 | Clarence LeBar | Yes, there are cities that have bought them. Actually Idaho State DOT bought a whole bunch of them from us to make them available to the cities. So yeah, we can get that information to you. Is that on your website? It's not. No. |
| 00:28:28.46 | Eli Gelardon | Is that on your website? It's not, no. Okay. But I can. I think that would be helpful to provide. Thank you. |
| 00:28:36.72 | Jennifer Harrison | Have your users reported any issues Oh, I'm sorry. Jennifer Harrison, State Parks again. Have your users reported any issues with pranksters who want to take it apart and record funny messages on there? |
| 00:28:48.44 | Clarence LeBar | Yeah. |
| 00:28:48.84 | Jennifer Harrison | We deal with a lot of pranksters in the parks. |
| 00:28:50.14 | Clarence LeBar | Sure, yeah. Actually, it's got a theft proof bolt that holds it on. And it's not an easy thing to take apart. I mean, that's why when I demoed this one, I already had it taken apart, because you really need a screwdriver to pry it open. So it takes a little bit of work, and you really got to know what you're doing to change it. It's true, and really nothing's impossible. I mean, if they're going to do it, they're going to do it. But we do have some hindrances built into it. |
| 00:29:25.48 | Larry Paradis | Hi, Larry Paradis from Disability Rights Advocates. One of the sample messages that you have suggests that the device would be put on a location before you reach the intersection where a sidewalk on the other side of the intersection is blocked. And I'm curious about that situation because in a four-way intersection, wouldn't that require having the lights, the EMCO light in four different locations? because people could be coming at that intersection from four different places |
| 00:30:02.79 | Unknown | Yes. |
| 00:30:03.12 | Larry Paradis | as opposed to having the light at the point where the sidewalk itself is actually blocked. Now that might require a blind person to reverse course and go back to the intersection. it would be one light versus four or more. |
| 00:30:22.43 | Clarence LeBar | Yeah, well, I don't know how to answer that, Jim. I don't know if you've dealt more with the National Committee part of it, but It's, I don't know, I guess probably engineering judgment maybe based upon whatever they think would be best for a pedestrian coming down there. I don't know how to answer it exactly. Um, But some of the discussions have come up in the National Committee, and Tim Cox has been involved with that. |
| 00:30:56.30 | Richard Scapp | This is Richard Scaff. It would probably, typically it is put at the corner where the construction But... barricade starts and blocks off the block. Although these are sample ideas and sample suggestions, This is going to need more review, more discussion, and I think it will... need more input from Public Works, staff, where they talk about how they actually do their work and what they're trying to do with the barricade systems. And we're those systems would be placed. and that's where the EMCO system would be placed. So I think this is going to, I guess I'll use the term shakeout. during the use of these systems. The problem is if, you know, and I respect Gene's suggestion that more testing needs to be done and I agree, But if we don't get these systems like the barricade and the signage out there in the field. try it. with a responsive manufacturer Um, listening to what's going on. in the field. If we don't do that, We won't have signage out there for people that are blind and low vision. If we put it out there and it's not got all of the answers, uh... at this point but we, as the systems are put out in place, and they have at least some Um, information they can use for the speak out sign messages. But then once we get it out there and get some experience with it, we not only will maybe modify some of those messages, but we'll increase the number of messages that we need for the different types of applications. That's not to say that the messages are perfect. It says it's just like the system is now being reviewed for the ambient noise edition. This is going to be an ongoing process, but it needs to be ongoing. And if we don't get it out there, it won't be. So that's why I'm here today to say We need... We need state parks, we need national parks. By the way, Richard, Hello? Good to have you. Golden Gate National Recreation Area. We need public works departments to step up and say, yes, we'll take it on. We'll work maybe through American Public Works Association. to work with the manufacturer, to make the unit better. And I don't think the manufacturer is going to argue with that. So. |
| 00:33:49.01 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:33:49.35 | Richard Scapp | Thank you. |
| 00:33:49.87 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:33:53.18 | Unknown | There I go. There you go. No easier. |
| 00:33:53.37 | Richard Scapp | Yeah. |
| 00:33:53.40 | Clarence LeBar | There I go. There you go. |
| 00:34:03.96 | Unknown | a noisy construction site and one of these devices there. You're going to need the barricades and everything else. |
| 00:34:18.80 | Unknown | Yes. |
| 00:34:20.38 | Richard Scapp | If I could, I'd like to speak to that. It's interesting that you again state that. This is one of the issues. This unit was tested by PG&E. Is there anybody from PG&E here today? they were going to be here today and then I guess they didn't make it. About a year ago, a year and a half ago, I got PG&E to actually take a unit and test it, and they did, and they came up with a number of concerns. And one of them was the Um, the quality of the sound of the message Thank you. at the highest volume. And, among other issues that they were concerned about. Those issues went back to Mr. LeBar and the manufacturing company and they've spent the last year responding to that and that's why they're also looking at I presume the ambient noise if it doesn't affect negatively the battery use. But that's again, the reason why this needs to get out in the field and not just to test, but to actually use in day-to-day applications and start finding ways of making it better. And as I said, I believe that Mr. LeBar and his company will be more than interested in in making modifications as needed so that they can make it a better system. And I can also guarantee once it gets out in the field, we're going to have competition. So this was Richard Scapp. I'll turn this over. |
| 00:35:56.69 | Dan Kaiser | Thank you. |
| 00:36:00.66 | Dan Kaiser | Dan Kaiser with the California Council of the Blind. Is this type of battery the standard for public works projects? I thought they used those big square batteries. |
| 00:36:11.98 | Clarence LeBar | a standard six-volt spring terminal And all the public works have them. Actually, more and more of our lights are going to desol lights. but but these particular lights do use the six volt standard spring terminal and I mean everybody has them even if your public works doesn't you can go to Walmart and buy them so standard |
| 00:36:33.26 | Unknown | standard |
| 00:36:37.29 | Clarence LeBar | Yes, yes. |
| 00:36:38.17 | Unknown | They used more industrial for |
| 00:36:42.08 | Clarence LeBar | Well, the casing itself is a certain shape and then whatever goes inside them. So they are industrial grade batteries. but they're the same shape as a six-volt spring terminal lantern battery that you could buy at like a Walmart. |
| 00:36:58.93 | Gene Lozano | Gene Lozano, California Council of the Blind again. the I, you know, we'll have to see what in addition to the research that's been done, but seeing the placement of the sign, and I would... think that if we're talking about one sidewalk being closed that the audible sign with some kind of barricade be maybe set back a few feet down that pathway so there's no confusion as to which walkway is the one that's potentially closed or there's a pathway that you have to follow. And I think too, as a general comment, Yes, this is very beneficial for the blind and visually impaired, But it does have universal application and I think that needs to be put out there that anyone who's negotiating the sidewalk with maybe a mobility device such as a wheelchair would like to know what's what they're going to encounter as they're going down there. And they may not be able to see it And maybe there might be a blind spot and there's a curve there. Or no, at the other end of this construction site, if there's a curb ramp, that if you go all that distance you have something to go down to cross over. So I think it's just like the accessible pedestrian signals. Initially they were being promoted for the blind and visually impaired, but then it's been found that it's been very beneficial for all persons with or without disabilities, including those who are not even fluent in English because they get acquainted with the various sounds. Now of course we have a rapid tick sound which is becoming the standard officially at the state nationally. And I think, Suze, that I heard that you are looking into the idea of a solar panel device that could be built in to charge the battery as time goes on so that it at least keeps that going here. Yes, I think, like Richard's saying, is getting out there, but at the same time, balancing out with additional opportunities to improve on it and see that there's standardization from community to community throughout the country. Thank you. |
| 00:39:20.64 | Clarence LeBar | Thank you. |
| 00:39:20.79 | Gene Lozano | Thank you. |
| 00:39:20.83 | Clarence LeBar | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:39:21.49 | Gene Lozano | Thank you. |
| 00:39:21.53 | Clarence LeBar | Next slide. Oh, some more questions. I was going to say, maybe we should turn it over to Tim. Okay. |
| 00:39:29.53 | Unknown | Three more questions and then we'll... |
| 00:39:31.09 | Clarence LeBar | Thank you. Thank you. We are tinkering with, yeah, Gene brought up the idea that we are tinkering with a solar version of this to extend the battery life even more. but it's still in the early stages at this point. |
| 00:39:43.07 | Unknown | Maria Sabinante from Caltrans. What we would be concerned about as a public entity is that we have a lot of tort liability and so design defects, vehicles crashing into it or just malfunctioning. Would the manufacturer be inclined to indemnify the department? |
| 00:40:12.67 | Richard Scapp | Do the manufacturers of all the products that Caltrans uses in the right-of-way indemnify Caltrans with regard to liability? I mean we have plain signage, the flat signage we have. all types of different products that are used in the field here. |
| 00:40:36.95 | Unknown | When the department puts a product like this or any other product for testing, we do enter into an agreement in which the manufacturer does indemnify the department, especially when it's in the testing stages. We do that. And I'm the one that deals with those type of agreements. because of the fact that it's going to be in the testing stage and the fact that we also have to deal with vehicles in our right-of-way or anything like that. And we do have a huge amount of tort liability. |
| 00:41:16.42 | Richard Scapp | Well, let me speak to both points. First, it is not in the testing phase. It has been tested. As you heard, it actually works. It does what the manufacturer says it will do. when somebody walks by it or rolls by it like I would, Yeah. if there is a message been put into it. First of all, it's a flasher like any other flasher used by Caltrans. state parks, national parks, PG&E or anybody else doing work, a utility or a private contractor in the public right-of-way, They're using a flasher. They could use this as a flasher without the speak-out system. However, the speak-out system is an additional system that does the same thing as a flat sign. Actually, it does more than a flat sign. It gives more information than a flat sign. So I don't believe that it creates any more liability than putting a flat sign out saying the sidewalk is closed. Certainly the flasher by itself doesn't create any more liability than any other flasher on any other A-frame sitting in the public right-of-way. still being tested. Just like a lot of different things in the public right-of-way that we use, products that we use in the public right-of-way, there's sort of a continuum when a product is put out and modified. How do we handle when we decided to tie A-frames together to make them a real barricade? Thank you. which we did in San Francisco by using plastic ties, putting them end to end instead of doing something like this with yellow tape, which I still see contractors and public and private entities still doing. You know, are we creating more liability by putting something like this barricade out? With a flasher like this, I don't think there's any difference in liability. There's always liability. for anybody who does anything. And if there's a reasonableness in what you've done, then I think that's the protection you have. So I think Thank you. |
| 00:43:32.47 | Unknown | Well, And I understand and I think that it's a very good idea. And what we're concerned about is that when it comes to barricades And we have to not only deal with pedestrians, we have to deal with traffic vehicles. And when you say that, you know, the liability that it comes with putting regular barriers on, well that liability is taken by the construction company that puts up the barriers, not the Department of Transportation. So that's the only thing is if the Department of Transportation would be putting these particular devices up, we would want some, there is, and there's people that sue for just about anything. And as a public entity, we would like to be protected like anybody else. And that's what we would be concerned about in our tort thing is the fact that these particular devices will be going on the right-of-way, and not only pedestrians will be dealing with it, but also the traveling public. |
| 00:44:36.22 | Unknown | Here's Jesus. |
| 00:44:42.35 | Richard Scapp | Richard Scaff again, the issue again continues to be a concern of liability. Let me suggest that the way Caltrans, the way state parks, national parks, PG&E. private contractors all have to work in the public right-of-way. is by following the manual on uniform traffic control devices. OK? when the work is being done in such a way that it causes a path of travel to be created in the vehicle way. Would I use a plastic barricade? No, I would use a K-rail. because a K-Rail would protect the pedestrians I'm asking to go in the vehicle way. from vehicles, running into the barricade. this all comes from the way Caltrans and any other public or private entity is dealing with a contract. and in the contract, Caltrans asked to create. standards that they require. For example, When they... have a barricade system required that's going to be protecting people in a vehicle way. They would say, when you're doing this with a barricade, you need to use a barricade that will protect a pedestrian from a vehicle. then it's up to the contractor to figure out what that product is. when they're working on a sidewalk where there isn't a vehicle, this type of barricade would be absolutely perfect. It won't be protecting them from vehicles. It will be protecting the pedestrian from going in the construction site. And that's what this will do, and it will do that. Again, if we look at the comparison between what Caltrans and others have used for use and continue in many cases to use, this to this. And flat signs... to that system I don't think there's any question that there's any more liability. There isn't. and neither one of these products are still being tested. They may be modified in the future because based on use. there's been a need to add or remove or change some feature but that doesn't mean it's still in testing. This does speak out, and it can tell a blind person or a person with limited vision that there's a change in the path of travel that they are used to using. That's what it's supposed to do. It's providing the alternative equivalent alternative to a flat sign that you and I use. by not using it, Caltrans has more liability than using it. That would be my thought. Jonathan, do you have any thoughts on liability from a public entity's point of view? |
| 00:47:25.27 | Jonathon Goldman | I'm happy to talk around it. |
| 00:47:31.86 | Richard Scapp | It's not the city attorney, it's the public works director, so that's not a fair question. |
| 00:47:36.14 | Jonathon Goldman | I do want to preface this with two things, though. Just a time check. I want to make sure that we give Tim a chance to demonstrate his technologies and that we have an equal opportunity for the same kind of discussion there. And so within the next few minutes, we need to go that way. The short answer from my perspective is that it really has to do, it's a function of timing. When we grant an encroachment permit to a private contractor to take over a portion of the public right of way, we have to take over a portion of the indemnity to the city, the protection to the public entity, comes in the form of their insurance. We have the authority to require them to protect pedestrians and vehicles from one another and from the dangers that the encroachment, the construction, represents. In some cases, those encroachments last for 25 minutes. If everybody's on top of their game, the guy who needs to put scaffolding up to wash the windows at Jimmy Bob's down the street gets a permit and actually listens, if we're speaking coherently, and tell him that he needs to accommodate people in wheelchairs, needs to accommodate sight impaired, needs to take into account the fact that somebody could accidentally be injured as a result of his or her activity in the public right-of-way. It's a little bit different story if the encroachment is going to be in place for months, if a building gets scaffolded and, you know, we need to construct temporary improvements for that purpose. The bottom line from my perspective is, and I've learned this lesson from you, and I expect to continue to learn these lessons, if we aren't conscious of the needs of people who have language or abilities that are different from ours, we're not protecting them. And so the ability to, and I've been kind of hiding my Sausalito A-frames and caution tape from the camera, but the recognition that for a person who has to navigate with a cane, that this doesn't constitute adequate warning and, in fact, probably represents an opportunity to become entangled and injured in and of itself let alone then fall into the open excavation behind it is the realization I think is important the ability if we are paying attention and doing our jobs well to plan ahead, to plan for a temporary encroachment, and set things up that do a better job of protecting people equitably. That's our responsibility. And there's never going to be a magic bullet where we drop something out of an airplane and it protects everybody without us having to pay any attention or give it any further thought. The obligation is for people who are responsible for the public right-of-way to understand the issues, make diligent efforts, and adjust and learn based on the experiences that different people have. So the liability issue, yes, there are lots of liability issues out there. Does that mean that we wouldn't consider changing our standard of care from A-frames and caution tape? Absolutely not. We have no choice. A-frames and caution tape, in my judgment, represent much more significant liability than improvements in technology and warnings. |
| 00:51:33.17 | Richard Scapp | Larry, and then I think we have to move on. Yeah. |
| 00:51:40.00 | Unknown | I would ask if we could, if you could hold those questions. When we finish our part of it, Clarence and Joe and I will be here as long as possible, and we'd love to answer all of your questions as we go along. |
| 00:51:58.73 | Larry Paradis | I am a lawyer so I can add a little bit to this in debt liability issue. If you're following the MUTCD, properly, you're going to be including channelizing barricades that are detectable by blind people using canes. And that will provide a baseline level of safety. adding the audible speak out alert on top of that It adds increased information to the blind pedestrian It can't create any liability situation if you're also doing that baseline of the channelizing devices like some of those that are depicted here today. Adding additional information can only help a blind pedestrian. If you didn't provide the channelizing device and relied solely on the speak out alert device, then you might have a liability concern. But by providing both, I don't think you're going to risk any liability. And I did have one question, which is, What is the cost of the device and Thank you. Is there any opportunity for volume discounts? |
| 00:53:21.61 | Clarence LeBar | Yeah, suggested list on it is $150. And yes, there is opportunities for volume discount. |
| 00:53:33.05 | Richard Scapp | Clarence, thank you very much. As was said just a moment ago, I think both manufacturers will be here. I don't know what the... Jonathan, what the issue is with getting everybody out of here? at noon exactly, but if they, can we have a few minutes afterwards for people to ask questions? Thank you. Do you want to use the mic there so we can still use this? |
| 00:54:12.97 | Unknown | Thank you. of five years and over here in the city. Thank you. |
| 00:54:51.97 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:55:01.62 | Unknown | you |
| 00:56:35.43 | Unknown | Bye. Thank you. |
| 00:56:57.98 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:57:16.07 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:59:30.70 | Unknown | you |
| 01:01:42.52 | Gene Lozano | Jane Lozano, California Council of the Blind. Yes, I very much personally liked... both devices, but particularly the one that is more solid. And less likely if somebody the cane going through the under, between the two, the original device going between the two horizontal portions of it. And that there's no sharp edges and that helps with the guidance. I think what I really would like to comment on is, yes, contrast is Contrast is very important. However, it has to be recognized Um, and as standardized. Even though it's not in the federal codes, but like detectable warnings, many places in California we are using federal yellow, which is a yellow-orange-y color. and That is recognized universally for people as caution. to be cautious when you're entering so it has the contrast even though it may have less contrast than other colors, though it contrasts well enough for people with low vision and different lighting settings to see it, but it's recognized as a warning device. And I would say is, yeah, maintain your contrast, but stick with the color and the industry should stay together so it's predictable. So when it's a color scheme that's recognized as a barricade so that person with a low vision sees it from a distance, say, oh, here's a construction site. Um... I don't know where the orange is. I know orange vests are used and so forth, and if that's the industry standard, but... Again, that is the yellowish-orange with the yellow more in it is something that stands out a lot better in the photoptic peak for people with low vision as well as the fully sighted. So don't give up standardization of a recognizable color scheme that all companies would follow. Thank you. |
| 01:04:00.70 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:04:04.97 | Unknown | Thank you. There's a great question right now. There is a drawing in the burpees that's being sent out. Thank you. |
| 01:04:33.97 | Unknown | Thank you. I'm going to talk to you all. you Thank you. |
| 01:04:55.98 | Unknown | Thank you. I don't know if the one is just a requirement to have a contract of devices that are used. |
| 01:05:16.26 | Gene Lozano | Do look at the formula for the color contrast, and that's something I can provide. Yes, it's been in some of the appendixes for signage in the original ADAG, and it's been found that that formula needed to be tinkered with a little more, and there's something newer out there that the scientists have worked up with. But the two's comment is make certain that you have some reflective, preferably yellow, reflectors on it so that it will gather light, especially if there's dim lighting or no lighting near, that at least for a low vision person, what ambient night light that's out there. as they're walking that they'll be reflecting off those little reflectors so it will ease in the guidance visually for somebody with low vision. |
| 01:06:50.97 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:07:15.91 | Unknown | on the last minute, accepted our request to deliver this to information on the table. |
| 01:07:37.42 | Richard Scapp | And I want to say thank you also. And I take full responsibility for being so late in getting the request to them. Can I use my age as an excuse? I'm not an ageist, but I, only thought of it last week. how's that for the problem i would like to thank the manufacturers for bringing their products into show. Again, Jonathan and I are not here to sell a product. were, I think I've convinced Jonathan and I, I am sure I've convinced him that, that, uh, this is a good thing to do? to help manufacturers find ways of creating products that will make the built environment more accessible and safe for everybody. And Gene, to your point, this is exciting because more of a universal design in both features, both the barricade feature and the Speak Out Sign feature that speak out sign will serve. those of us that are sighted. that aren't paying attention or, aren't thinking about the change in the path of travel. So I hope I can convince Jonathan to do more of these events in Sausalito. I know it's difficult for many of you to get here, but I have found very few department heads, public employee, management level public employees that are willing to put themselves out like Jonathan has here in Sausalito. And I want to thank him for that. This is an important step, not only because of these two products and getting them out into the communities to start using them, but to let everybody know that manufacturing of products is an important aspect in accessibility and universal design. without people in the manufacturing industries that are willing to be forward-looking and take a chance and create new products. we won't be anywhere. Our community won't be able to function. It's because there are people like the two you've met today that are willing to move forward with a product that there is no guarantee in manufacturing. that we get something that actually makes the built environment functional for us. So thank you. And thank you, Jonathan. |
| 01:10:08.20 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you very much, Mr. Scaff, our presenters today, and those of you who came. I'd also like to thank our signers who've been very helpful and not only benefit those of us in the room, but as some of you know, we're both streaming this demonstration via the city's website and also archiving it so that it's available to any of you who are here or any of you who happen to catch word of it somewhere else. You're welcome to contact me at the City of Sausalito. Via our webpage, if you have any questions or problems with accessing that information, I'll be happy to provide details as to how it can be made available to you free of charge. My telephone number is 415-289-4176. and my email address which is also available on the city's website is jgoldman at ci and my email address which is also available on the city's website is jgoldman at ci.sausalito.ca.us with that we're going to close our webcast presentation the room is still available and I encourage people to again help themselves to refreshments and try out the equipment and engage in Wonderful conversation. Thank you all for coming. |
Rob Simon — Neutral: Expressed concern that constant triggering in busy areas might make the audible message blend into background noise, reducing effectiveness. ▶ 📄
Eli Gelardon — In Favor: Asked for references from municipalities that have used the device to help other cities consider adoption. ▶ 📄
Jennifer Harrison — Neutral: Inquired about vulnerability to pranksters altering recorded messages, noting issues in parks. ▶ 📄
Larry Paradis — In Favor: Questioned optimal placement for intersection closures and later added that combining audible alerts with detectable barricades minimizes liability risks. ▶ 📄
Maria Sabinante — Neutral: Asked if the manufacturer would indemnify public entities like Caltrans against liability, especially during testing phases. ▶ 📄
Dan Kaiser — Neutral: Asked if the batteries used are standard for public works projects. ▶ 📄