| Time | Speaker | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:10.66 | Herb Weiner | I have everybody take their seat, please. Welcome to the Tuesday, October 4th, 2011 meeting. This time here, roll call, please. |
| 00:00:23.27 | Debbie | Councilmember Pfeiffer? Here. Councilmember Ford? Here. |
| 00:00:26.07 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 00:00:27.22 | Debbie | Vice Mayor Kelly. Thank you. |
| 00:00:28.38 | Herb Weiner | too. |
| 00:00:28.60 | Debbie | Thank you. May our whiner say, |
| 00:00:29.88 | Herb Weiner | President. At this time here, we have to go in on a closed session item on a workman's comp claim pursuant to the California Government Code, Section 54956. Is there any public comment on this closed session item? Okay, therefore we'll go to closed session and see you back here in 10 minutes. |
| 00:01:05.44 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. |
| 00:01:27.97 | Herb Weiner | Good evening and welcome to the Tuesday, October 4th, 2011 meeting. At this time here, Debbie, take the roll call, please. |
| 00:01:40.45 | Debbie | Council member Pfeiffer. |
| 00:01:42.38 | Linda Pfeifer | here. |
| 00:01:42.63 | Debbie | Councilmember Ford. Here, Councilmember Leon. |
| 00:01:45.67 | Herb Weiner | here. |
| 00:01:46.31 | Debbie | Vice Mayor Kelly? Here. Mayor Weiner? |
| 00:01:47.37 | Herb Weiner | THE END OF THE END OF THE present. This time here... We'll go to the Pledge of Allegiance. One alpha on the leaders. |
| 00:02:00.33 | Unknown | I My pleasure. Please repeat with me. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to |
| 00:02:04.64 | Herb Weiner | Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for our country. |
| 00:02:09.97 | Herb Weiner | Republic for which it stands. I'm not. |
| 00:02:12.97 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 00:02:15.13 | Michael Rex | indivisible. liberty and justice |
| 00:02:19.86 | Herb Weiner | Thank you, Ron. We met in a closed session to talk about a workman's comp item. And was there any public comment on that closed session item? Thank you. Okay, moving ahead. Go for the approval of the agenda. |
| 00:02:42.57 | Mike Kelly | movie? |
| 00:02:43.67 | Herb Weiner | All in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay. |
| 00:02:44.70 | Mike Kelly | Aye. |
| 00:02:47.43 | Herb Weiner | this time here. We'll have a special presentation, an update from the Sausalito Marin City School District. And, uh, Thomas Noumaier. |
| 00:03:04.71 | Thomas Neumeier | Good evening, and I'd like to have Dr. Valerie Pitts, our new superintendent, join me up here. |
| 00:03:05.17 | Michael Rex | No, but you're... |
| 00:03:05.50 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:03:12.46 | Thomas Neumeier | Hello, I'm Thomas Neumeier, President of the Board of Trustees of the Sausalito and Wind City School District. |
| 00:03:18.94 | Stephan Bühn | I saw Sleet on Wednesday. |
| 00:03:21.82 | Thomas Neumeier | Adam Pulitzer recently reached out to me, identifying this is a good time for us renewing cooperation between the school district and the city and I strongly agreed Um, Would it be helpful to give just a very quick primer on the structure of the district? Okay. So, hi Sam. Family in attendance, good sign. |
| 00:03:44.27 | Stephan Bühn | family. |
| 00:03:47.84 | Thomas Neumeier | So we have our, in the 380 kids, we have three schools. We're a K through 8 district. We have two district schools. The first is Bayside Elementary. And it's a K through four located right down here on Nevada Street, sort of across, along across from Molly Stone's. It's a K through four. then the district middle school is MLK Middle, and that serves five through eight and it's in the gorgeous new building in Marin City on the MLK campus. Then we also have the K through eight Charter School, Willow Creek, K-8 charter, free education. And that too is located along with Bayside on the campus on Nevada Street here. So they share that campus. I am very excited about the district right now for two reasons. The first reason is the woman standing right next to me. Let me introduce Valerie Pitts. I'll give her the floor in a minute here, but I wanted to say a few words. Valerie is bringing a level of organization to the 94965 school district that we have never seen before. We are now building proper financial models looking for forecasting, you know, four or five years ahead. at appropriate staffing levels. Moreover, Valerie is bringing educational discipline to the classroom. We've completely overhauled teacher training, program coordination with all the outside agencies that want to work with us, proper use of our administrative staff. There's a lot of work to do. Valerie just came on board in July, but we're off to a very good start. Um, Valerie comes to us from the county. We hired Valerie through the county office, through Mary Jane Burr. We're sharing her services with Larkspur Court of Madeira, where she's also superintendent. Her exposure to the county and other districts has distinct advantages for us. We're a very small, somewhat isolated district, and she's able to coordinate with, she's able to, you know, being in two districts, having these connections with the county office, she's really able to coordinate very well with the other districts, help us share services, share knowledge, do a lot of key exchanges, and help us provide a great education for our kids. Valerie is also on the vanguard of what's happening in the broader educational spectrum. So when there are changes and things coming down the pike, |
| 00:06:27.85 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 00:06:30.94 | Thomas Neumeier | We're one of the first districts to know about them. The last benefit is she's been incredibly valuable to us as a leader of our board. There's a lot of tension on our board and that tension has dropped dramatically since she arrived. It's been pivotal as there are a lot of very tense issues that we face and she's helped us in our ability to discuss these really hard matters. I can't overstate that enough. The second reason I'm really excited right now is for the first time in decades, truly, Sausalito parents have a wonderful option. for K-education for their children, right here in Sausalito. Willow Creek has come of age, it's now in its 10th year, in fact, celebrating 10 years, two Saturdays from now, the 16th at Sausalicious. You're all invited. And so for the first time, we truly had the option. There's no longer this talk that you go to nursery school here and then you have to move north to Mill Valley to Tiburon or you have to go to St. Hillary's or MCDS. You can stay right here in town. and get a great K-8 education. Families are moving here for Willow Creek. A lot of families, you know, they try to deal with getting into their top seven choices in San Francisco. They can't deal with it. They're moving here. Consequently, we're starting to look at a lottery system. my daughter, who just ran out of the room, third year at Saucelida Nursery School, it's very probable that nine of the 12 kids in her class will go to Willow Creek. Five years ago, I can tell you definitively that number would have been zero. Um... The success, however, is tentative. Willow Creek must be nurtured, protected, and helped to move forward. Um. The old view, move or go private, has been held for so long, I mean I still bump into people daily, that it will take a lot of time for this new reality to permeate local thinking, local conversations. If Willow Creek could be more of a centerpiece in the city's planning, This will occur much more quickly, and that's where I think Valerie, Adam, leaders from Willow Creek, Um, All of you, Adam, can work together, and I'd certainly like to be a part of that process too, so we can better coordinate and get this word out. And now I'd like to turn it over to Valerie. |
| 00:09:02.43 | Valerie Pitts | Thank you, Thomas. I don't know what's left to say after that. That was a very good overview of the district. I would just like to say thank you. Thank you for having me here tonight. very much forward to working with all of you on the vision of the school district and the schools in the district and improving what we have here in Sausalito and Marin City so that public education can be a very real option for everyone here. I look forward to having more conversations with you, Adam, and really in building a partnership looking to a very optimistic future here for our schools. So thank you very much, and I'm sure I will see you again soon. |
| 00:09:39.75 | Thomas Neumeier | Thank you. We're more than willing to take a few minutes to take questions if we have time. Any questions? Thank you. |
| 00:09:45.68 | Herb Weiner | Any questions from the, any public comment? Okay. Thomas, thank you very much. |
| 00:10:00.76 | Herb Weiner | Okay. |
| 00:10:03.08 | Herb Weiner | THE FAMILY. |
| 00:10:03.78 | Herb Weiner | Don't forget your children. |
| 00:10:03.82 | Herb Weiner | Don't forget your children. |
| 00:10:08.83 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. At this time here, we open it up to the public, the citizens here. If they'd like to make a comment on something that is not on the agenda, I have a list of names, so I'll call them out one at a time. Stephen Buell. |
| 00:10:32.71 | Stephan Bühn | My name is Stephan Bühn. I own Yoga of South Celido. We are a vibrant yoga studio. We have a beautiful boutique, and since about one half years, also a little spa. And I wanted to give it out to the city. We kind of... The last retailers here in Caledona Street, we kind of left, felt very left alone there, at Caledona Street together with Green Apples and which probably is going to close down by end of the year. And I wanted to ask the city if they have any vision, Uh, for the future of Caledonia Street, if they would like to have retailers there or probably they're not interested. My second question is if we can do anything about parking there. Since we have these new parking regulations, I have lost at least 50 to 100 clients, regular clients coming in after 6 o'clock. I woke home every day in the evening and woke up. one of the side streets and I will see five to ten parking spaces empty. So if that could be a change to put the parking date times from 9 o'clock on in the evening so people can come in and use my studio from six to eight would be very nice. And the third thing I would like that we just got, an order out from you guys that we cannot put any sandwich boards out anymore. I'm putting my sandwich board out since 10 years now on my private property. and is the only way to catch these last people who walk around the Caledonia Street to bring them into my store. So I would like to give this out to you guys that we can probably make a change in this too. That's about it. |
| 00:12:17.03 | Herb Weiner | I know. |
| 00:12:17.45 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 00:12:17.47 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. As you know, at this time here, we really will listen to your comments. We really cannot, up here at the dais, make a comment back to you. The next person, Dan Howes. |
| 00:12:34.43 | Dan Howes | Thank you. |
| 00:12:34.46 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:12:34.60 | Dan Howes | Thank you. Hi there. Hello to the City Council. My name is Dan Howes and I'm here with my father, Sean. We're new residents or occupiers of the beautiful Princess Street area, which has just undergone a lot of revitalization in the last year to two years with more local area businesses filling in some of the empty spaces on Princess Street. And so a number of us are here from those businesses to come and make our voices heard about, once again, the signage issue, which has been raised recently with the ordinance about not having any sandwich signs being able to be placed in the public egress or even on private property. For the new retail shops in the Princess Street area, it's really a very valuable tool for us to be able to get a little bit more exposure to the people and so much traffic that's concentrated more on Bridgeway and kind of the main downtown area to try to capture some of those people and you know let them know that there are more local air you know businesses and shops to be seen if they just come up the hill and so you know hoping that the City Council can you know be open to hearing some suggestions or maybe there's something that can be done in order to you know either have the signage via permit process or maybe there's even another solution that may be possible with more permanent signage that could be a collaboration between local area businesses and the city. So anyhow, we're just here in support of this and just wanting to make you guys aware that this is an issue that really affects us day-to-day, you know, prior to the ordinance and the letters going out that this was an issue and enforcement was going to be started again. We get customers in our door on a daily basis that are referencing something that they saw on the sign. So it's something that they saw, they were curious about, and they came in our door because of that. So the value of those signs is definitely very well established, at least from a business owner's perspective. So thank you very much and that was something that you'll put some thought and consideration into. |
| 00:15:38.43 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:15:38.47 | Adam Politzer | Good timing. Thank you. |
| 00:15:39.88 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:15:39.92 | Adam Politzer | Mr. Mayor, if I may, I think that the council is aware that we have sent out letters to the businesses and have been working closely with the Chamber of Commerce on enforcing the sign ordinance. Jeremy Graves, our Community Development Director, is here and I think what you're hearing now are from encouragement from some of the folks that have been a part of the discussion. to come and share with you how that impacts their business and to see if there is some flexibility with the language in that ordinance that the city would like to look at in the future. As many of the council members know and maybe even members here in the public that are here tonight, we have a lot of signage challenges throughout town and some would say it's signage pollution. And in particular, the north end of town from Gate 6 Road down to the down to about Napa Street, we had a lot of clutter of signage along Bridgeway. And so once we started enforcing the signage, people appreciated that we were cleaning up the area and making access throughout town easier for folks, especially with outside dining and other activity on the sidewalks made that possible. but we do continue to work with the Chamber of Commerce and we'll continue to work through the Business Advisory Committee to address these issues and see if there is something that could work for both the community and for the business community for something that's maybe more uniformed in nature to help. So I'm sure there are some others that would like to comment tonight, but I did want to give you just a quick brief update of why folks may be coming and how community development staff and the city manager will continue to work with the Chamber of Commerce to see what options there may be and then bring that back for further discussion and future council meeting. Thank you. |
| 00:17:55.47 | Herb Weiner | Okay, thank you. Next, I have Susan Nathans. |
| 00:18:05.85 | Susan Nathans | I am Susan Nathans. I'm the owner of I Italia on Princess Street, and I've lived here in Sausalito for 17 years now. |
| 00:18:08.52 | Stephan Bühn | THEIR HANDS. |
| 00:18:13.84 | Susan Nathans | I think more of us are going to speak and it's probably going to start getting a bit redundant, so I'll try to cut to the chase. We all have an issue with business right now. We are all struggling to survive. These are tough, tough economic times. And when this sign ordinance, the notification of it, I frankly didn't know it existed as an ordinance. But when it became enforced, I think we all, particularly on Princess Street, because these are my neighbors, Donna is here from Chaubella, Sandy from Hillside, and of course Sean and Dan from Dynamic Energy Crystals. And we are the end of the line on Princess Street. We're the very, you know, we're off the beaten path. We are at the end, the very end of the commercial district. And especially since what I've heard is those buildings, all four of them, or three of them actually, were vacant for a number of years. And the Altamira going out of business, and it has totally decreased the traffic that comes up for us. So our little signs are kind of all that bring attention to the people that are strolling along Bridgeway and might happen to look up. Otherwise, they don't really even know we exist. We certainly understand the issues of aesthetics, the issues of safety, if you will, but I think this ordinance is frankly kind of draconian and counterproductive to business and to the economic health of our town. We're small business owners, again, operating in a very difficult economic climate, and I think we also have a right to know how this enforcement came about, and how many resident and visitor complaints that this has have been formally filed with the city about the signage and what the nature of these complaints have been. Is it safety issues? Is it aesthetic issues? What is it? But I just wanted to point out that as business owners, we make our stores attractive both inside and out. which in turn contributes to Salcedo's charm, its ambiance, And we act as host, we act as concierges to our visitors who come here from all over the world. We talk to scores of people every day, every week. We smile, we welcome them, we chit chat, we make small talks, to give restaurant recommendations, We give directions. We offer them our trash cans to throw away their coffee cups and their ice cream cones We give them quarters for the parking meters because there are no change machines in this town, and most people don't normally carry a pocket full of quarters. And some of us have even made hotel reservations for weary, confused travelers. And because... I'm going to finish this, I'm sorry. And because there's a rather shocking scarcity of public facilities in our town, we let them use our restrooms. And I just want to say that we pay our business licenses, our fees, we collect sales taxes that flow back to the city. And we just hope that the city will recognize what we contribute on a day-to-day basis and that we need help. Thank you. |
| 00:21:37.62 | Herb Weiner | Mm-hmm. |
| 00:21:38.04 | Unknown | One out. You run this. I'm not here to talk about signs. |
| 00:21:44.77 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. Thank you. |
| 00:21:46.41 | Unknown | I'm here in my capacity as both as a resident and as president of Rotary Housing. A month ago on the council's agenda was supposed to be initial discussion and possible action on an exclusive negotiating agreement between Rotary Housing and the city regarding the city's one-half ownership interest in a two-acre lot off Butte Street. Unfortunately, that was placed on the consent calendar. It caused some consternation here in town. The council took it off calendar. I did request that evening that it be put back on the council's regular calendar for open discussion with the public as soon as possible that evening. Since then, I believe you've all received a letter from the owner of the, the private owner of the half interest in that property detailing how they'd been in discussions with Rotary Housing for over a year regarding this property. Thank you. and also detailing their efforts to deal directly with the city for a number of years prior to that. Uh... So I'm here again on behalf of Rotary Housing, but I'm sure if the Hunts could be here, they would also request, let's get this on the City Council's agenda as soon as possible. I think the longer we delay on it, the more questions it raises with certain members of the public as to what exactly were we planning to do. And it was never intended to be anything secretive or mysterious. There's a draft exclusive negotiating agreement that staff prepared for your consideration. It's a non-binding agreement that simply lays out a structure by which the council would authorize the staff to spend some staff time on puzzling this out and whether it made any sense. by which the Council would authorize the staff to spend some staff time on puzzling this out and whether it made any sense for the city to proceed with some sort of agreement with Rotary Housing and then to come back again and report to the Council. In any event, I'm here to request that we get this on the Council's agenda as soon as possible, hopefully your next meeting in October, and let's have the discussion. |
| 00:24:07.42 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Okay, thank you. Robin Sweeney. |
| 00:24:23.21 | Robin Sweeney | Hello there, my name is Robin Sweeney, and this evening I am simply going to ask that the Council remove from the consent calendar one item that has to do with surplusing your Ford van from the Recreation Department. I would like an opportunity during that time to, report to you on a food program that we have that would love to have that van. If you would simply be willing to hear that out of consent, that would be nice. |
| 00:25:04.96 | Herb Weiner | Okay. |
| 00:25:06.63 | Robin Sweeney | OK? |
| 00:25:07.42 | Herb Weiner | Thank you, Robin. Mm-hmm. you Yes. |
| 00:25:13.33 | Jonathan Leone | We'll move on. |
| 00:25:14.01 | Herb Weiner | We'll move on now. |
| 00:25:15.61 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:25:15.62 | Mike Kelly | We're not supposed to tell you that yet, sir. |
| 00:25:18.02 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:25:20.81 | Herb Weiner | Now, Kyle Phillips. |
| 00:25:23.02 | Jonathan Leone | What can I do to get you in that van today before you leave this room? |
| 00:25:24.92 | Herb Weiner | before you leave this room. Thank you. |
| 00:25:26.21 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. |
| 00:25:30.07 | Herb Weiner | Is there a Kyle Phillips? I have it here. Okay, Marina O'Neill. |
| 00:25:41.09 | Herb Weiner | That's Doug Yang. That's not Marina O'Neal. Go ahead. Yeah, I'm not alone tonight. This is Doug Yang. |
| 00:25:43.23 | Marina O'Neill | Yeah, I'm not alone tonight. This is Doug Ewing. My name is Marina O'Neill. I'm on the Saucido Chamber Board of Directors. Also an owner of a small local business called San Francisco Bay Adventures located here at 1001 Bridgeway. I'm here in response to the letters received and the current enforcement of the portable sign ordinance. Doug here is the president of the Chamber of Commerce, and we've put together a packet for you guys. I stayed up late last night researching other cities, trying to find a solution to propose to you, about this deficit of signs that you guys are pulling them all of a sudden. And I've come up with a package of information where Other cities have navigated with a similar ordinance and have overturned that ordinance in order to be favorable for the merchants. We're all suffering right now in a bad economic climate. we really need your help. We really need your help as merchants to continue to bring people, especially these businesses that need the additional visibility that are off the beaten path. They're really suffering since you guys have been enforcing this. So my solution tonight is to present you with this package that I stayed up so late putting together off of different websites from different cities that face the same situation that we're facing right now that had a very similar ordinance in place that they were enforcing. And all the merchants got together and did exactly what we're doing tonight and made their council aware of what's happening to them as merchants. We do need your help. There's information here. I really recommend that you guys take a few minutes. I know you're busy, but to look through this, it goes even through to a, all the way in the back of this packet, you guys, is a... application. |
| 00:27:34.86 | Marina O'Neill | for a permit for these signs. So I hope you guys take a minute, take a look. Doug's gonna hand them out, and I really appreciate your time tonight listening to our merchants, and I beg of you to help us with this. We really do need the visibility out there. Thanks. Let's change the ordinance. |
| 00:27:48.87 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 00:27:55.97 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. you Thank you. |
| 00:27:58.70 | Herb Weiner | Yeah, you should dispose. |
| 00:28:00.44 | Herb Weiner | Yeah, so it'll be, I think, good to settle there as well. |
| 00:28:03.68 | Herb Weiner | Okay. Okay, is there anybody else that wanted us? Okay. Come up. that. State your name, please. |
| 00:28:21.15 | Carla Jacobs | Carla Jacobs. My business is Electric Wheels West. You may never have seen me because I'm out of sight in the walkway behind the yoga center of Sausalito. And the only way anyone even finds me from my Google ads is by those little signs I used to have out on the street. And then a policeman came by and said I had to take them in. So there's really no way to find me. I've been in business for two whole months, and I'm going out of business because of this. The irony is that after I got the citation, I put an ad in Craigslist trying to sublet my place and maybe move into a more visible place, maybe on Bridgeway. You know, I want to stay in town. But there's another ordinance that says that once I'm retail, the space is always retail and people who responded to the ads were offices and I have to spend about $2500 to apply to change my zoning and then with no guarantee that it would be approved. So I'm in a really tough spot. I'm giving a lot of money to my landlord, and no one's coming in the store anymore. Thank you. |
| 00:29:35.53 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Lorna. |
| 00:29:44.01 | Lorna Newland | My name is Lorna Newland. I've been a resident of Sausalito for 17 years and a business owner for nine years. I have a pottery studio in town, and I also want to speak in support of this for the signage. It is a tough economic time, but what everybody has to realize, it's the sales tax and the parking fees of people coming into town that is primarily supporting the city budget. Residents, if they're complaining about something, we just need to find a way that we have aesthetic signs, we can have people find the businesses. We're known as an artist community. I'm also off the beaten track and if I can't put a sign out when I'm doing an open studio or something like that, it's hard to get tourists or even locals from the county to find the artists in town. So I would like to find some way that we can all work together, have aesthetic signs, have our residents understand that we need business and we need a healthy business environment and community for our city to survive. Thank you. |
| 00:30:48.08 | Herb Weiner | Thank you, Lana. Okay. With that, I'll close it and bring it up and move on to the approval of the minutes of the City Council meeting on September 27th, 2011. |
| 00:31:07.38 | Herb Weiner | No, that's it. Okay, move to approval of the minutes. |
| 00:31:14.29 | Jonathan Leone | So, |
| 00:31:14.34 | Herb Weiner | Bye. |
| 00:31:14.37 | Jonathan Leone | move. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:31:16.48 | Herb Weiner | Okay, all in favor. |
| 00:31:19.33 | Linda Pfeifer | I'm sorry, Mr. Mayor, I did have one comment, if I may. |
| 00:31:27.72 | Herb Weiner | Yes. |
| 00:31:28.07 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. for Tuesday, September 27th. I've sent City Manager a comment with respect to perhaps being a little bit more... reflective and direct with regards to what happened because it's seems to be at a very high level regarding the incident on the 13th. That's just a comment. But specifically on item 7B, future agenda items, it says Council Member Pfeiffer requested placing the analysis of impediments to Fair Housing on the council agenda. I was actually very specific with regards to that future agenda item as to why I wanted it. And just to summarize, I said on the next council agenda, because this report could impact Sausalito in terms of high density development, And so I just wanted, you know, to at least add that level of specificity because I did go into that level of specificity when I mentioned the future agenda item. |
| 00:32:50.95 | Herb Weiner | Okay. Taken. Okay. So do we have the approval of the minutes now? |
| 00:33:00.79 | Jonathan Leone | you have to make a motion with that change. If somebody has to make a motion with that proposed change and then it has to be seconded. |
| 00:33:02.13 | Herb Weiner | we had. |
| 00:33:08.43 | Jonathan Leone | you |
| 00:33:08.60 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 00:33:08.85 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:33:10.23 | Linda Pfeifer | I move to approve the minutes of Tuesday, September 27, 2011 with my comments. Second. All in favor? The mayor needs to say that. |
| 00:33:23.06 | Carolyn Ford | Here. |
| 00:33:23.97 | Herb Weiner | You know. I still have to gamble. I'm sorry. |
| 00:33:27.58 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. I'm sorry. |
| 00:33:29.81 | Herb Weiner | you So, Thank you. |
| 00:33:30.08 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 00:33:31.97 | Herb Weiner | Okay, well, we have a motion on Debbie. Votre on that, please. |
| 00:33:38.48 | Mary Wagner | And Mr. Mayor, just so that we're abundantly clear, that's only with the change to the section to add the word the next council agenda to 7B future agenda items. |
| 00:33:49.32 | Michael Rex | OK. |
| 00:33:52.00 | Mary Wagner | That's the direction I agree. Thank you. |
| 00:33:53.62 | Herb Weiner | Yep. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? No. Okay. Thank you. |
| 00:33:57.86 | Jonathan Leone | Bye. |
| 00:33:58.87 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 00:33:58.97 | Herb Weiner | Aye. |
| 00:34:03.47 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Okay, on the next item here on the consent calendar. |
| 00:34:10.46 | Mike Kelly | I move that we remove item B and place it |
| 00:34:11.12 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:34:11.14 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 00:34:16.87 | Mike Kelly | It becomes item 6F. |
| 00:34:20.35 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. |
| 00:34:22.78 | Mike Kelly | Huh? Oh, okay. You do this. |
| 00:34:25.26 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. 6. |
| 00:34:29.26 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:34:29.29 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:34:29.97 | Jonathan Leone | See you. |
| 00:34:30.04 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. |
| 00:34:30.80 | Jonathan Leone | you |
| 00:34:30.85 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:34:30.97 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:34:31.01 | Jonathan Leone | . |
| 00:34:31.10 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:34:31.20 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Okay. |
| 00:34:32.91 | Jonathan Leone | Mm-hmm. |
| 00:34:33.46 | Jonathan Leone | for a few minutes, Robin? Can you hang out for a few minutes for the band? Okay. Okay. All right, with that, move to... I have to go in the back room and talk to the finance manager. Talk... No, I'm just kidding. |
| 00:34:48.97 | Susan Nathans | Thank you. |
| 00:34:49.04 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:34:49.07 | Susan Nathans | Transportation home. |
| 00:34:49.97 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:34:50.03 | Herb Weiner | Now you can use the van. Okay, with that, the consent calendar. |
| 00:34:50.05 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:34:50.07 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:34:50.10 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. |
| 00:34:50.51 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 00:34:50.93 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:34:50.96 | Herb Weiner | I'm sorry. |
| 00:34:52.45 | Vicki Nichols | Thank you. I know. |
| 00:34:54.00 | Herb Weiner | Uh. |
| 00:34:55.01 | Mike Kelly | you |
| 00:34:55.16 | Vicki Nichols | Thank you. |
| 00:34:55.21 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. you |
| 00:35:00.68 | Jonathan Leone | of approval |
| 00:35:01.80 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 00:35:02.00 | Jonathan Leone | It's 4. Just 4A. 4A. Mm-hmm. |
| 00:35:05.03 | Michael Rex | All in favor? |
| 00:35:05.30 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you, Fayeba. |
| 00:35:07.53 | Michael Rex | All in favor? Aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay. Thank you. |
| 00:35:08.36 | Jonathan Leone | Hi. |
| 00:35:12.83 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 00:35:12.85 | Herb Weiner | Next item that we have on the agenda is the historic guidelines. Resolution approving historic design guidelines, adoption of ordinance number 1204, way further readings and reading by the title only, ordinance number 1204, an ordinance of the City Council of the City of Sausalito amending section 10.54.050D. One. of the Sausalito Municipal Code to require design review permits consistent with the applicable design guidelines. |
| 00:35:55.10 | Herb Weiner | Staff report, Heidi Burns. |
| 00:35:57.13 | Heidi Burns | Good evening, Mayor Weiner, members of the City Council. basically described why we're here tonight, but I'll try to simplify the terminology a little bit. We're here to hopefully for the final adoption of the historic design guidelines. |
| 00:36:03.54 | Stephan Bühn | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 00:36:03.62 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:36:03.74 | Stephan Bühn | I'll try to. |
| 00:36:11.57 | Heidi Burns | The purpose of this item tonight is to conduct a public hearing on the historic design guidelines that have been updated, as well as a public hearing on zoning ordinance amendment which would require design review permits to be consistent with applicable design guidelines, and also the repeal of Resolution 5253, which was approved on July 26 for the approval of an initial environmental study, negative declaration pursuant to the California Environmental Quality Act. So I'll talk about that in a little bit. So just to provide a brief little background on how we got to where we are right now. On July 26th, a few months ago, the City Council conducted its first public hearing regarding the historic design guidelines. At that time, I presented a timeline of events that got us to where we are. There was also discussion on the purpose and objectives of the guidelines, how the guidelines will be used. an overview of the guidelines, recommended amendments to the guidelines, and compliance with the California Environmental Quality Act. Since that time, the city's consultant, Winter and Company, has revised the historic design guidelines and the final document has been attached to your staff report and can be accessed on the city's website. However, since that time, a local architect, Michael Rex, reviewed the document and determined that there might be a recommended verbiage change. That email with the recommended changes was included in your staff report. Staff forwarded that information to the city's consultant. The city's consultant reviewed that information and determined that the proposed language was inconsistent with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for the treatment of historic properties. However, Winter and Company did come up with modified language that would attempt to meet or address the concerns that Michael Rex raised and also ensure consistency with the Secretary of the Interior Standards. Basically, we have revised language and I'll just briefly discuss it. The revised language speaks to page seven of the proposed document, which speaks to determining of treatment strategy for features of a historic building. So essentially when you're trying to determine whether or not a building is historically significant and what type of treatment to be used, there are five steps. And the proposed changes would be to the treatment number three, which is replace. And the new language would be, if it is not feasible to repair the feature, then replace in kind for example, materials detail finish, replace only that portion which is beyond repair. The new language for treatment for regarding reconstruction is if the feature is missing entirely, reconstruct it from appropriate evidence or simplified interpretation may be considered. Also, if a portion of a feature is missing, it can also be reconstructed. And the last recommended change would be treatment five, compatible alteration. If a new feature, one that did not exist previously or addition is necessary, Design it in such a way as to minimize the impact on original features. It is also important to distinguish new features on a historic building from original historic elements, even if in subtle ways. So Mr. Rex and a subcommittee of the Historic Landmarks Board are acceptable of this language and staff is recommending that it be modified this evening. The other component to this project is a zoning ordinance amendment. So currently in the zoning ordinance, the design review permit is required for exterior modifications to any structure located in the historic overlay zoning district, any property that's listed on the local, state, or national register, as well as ARCs. in order to put teeth into our zoning ordinance and to be able to use the historic design guidelines as a basis of making design review permit findings, staff is recommending that the language be modified in finding one which will state that the proposed project is consistent with the general plan, any applicable specific plans, and the new language would be any applicable design guidelines in this chapter. This also leaves it open for any future design guidelines that the city may Thank you. consider So. regarding secret compliance So at your last meeting, the council approved an initial environmental negative declaration. and a draft resolution was included in your packet, however, since that meeting, and the resolution was inadvertently exchanged out and a number was assigned to it. Once that number is assigned to it, then that resolution Thank you. becomes public and in order procedurally to remedy it, we have to actually repeal the ordinance. So what got approved was the historic design guidelines and not the initial environmental study negative declaration. So this is just procedural. The resolution was previously included in your July 26th staff report and staff is recommending that you approve that. resolution and the repeal of Resolution 5253. So with that, Staff is recommending the City Council adopt a resolution approving the Historic Design Guidelines as modified for Peel Resolution 5253. adopt a resolution approving the initial environmental study negative declaration and approve the second reading and adoption of, and I'm going to read this because it's specific language, an ordinance of the City Council of the City of Sausalito, amending Section 10.54050, |
| 00:41:31.59 | Herb Weiner | Mm-hmm. |
| 00:41:37.92 | Heidi Burns | point D.1 of the Saucelita Municipal Code to require design review permits to be consistent with any applicable design guidelines. So with that, I'm available to answer any questions you may have. |
| 00:41:48.75 | Herb Weiner | Any questions from that? |
| 00:41:51.37 | Jonathan Leone | Mr. Mayor, Heidi, quick question going back to the zoning ordinance amendment. In this particular section, I can't remember what 1054 is. Is that historic district or is that? |
| 00:42:07.50 | Heidi Burns | It's actually the design review permit findings. |
| 00:42:09.04 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Okay, all right. Thank you. Is there, would you have to perform a separate NGDAC for, if you made it applicable to the 50-year and older structures, to apply these to 50-year and older structures? Or could we just, if we so chose, could we amend those to include these guidelines to, because the way it reads at the top, it applies only to a historic district or historic places or local register? |
| 00:42:32.48 | Heidi Burns | register. Yeah, the 50-year review policy is interesting how it's applied to our zoning ordinance. Essentially, that policy was created for compliance with the California Environmental Quality Act. And essentially, once you have a discretionary permit, such as a design review permit or a nonconformity permit or a conditional use permit or variance, you automatically have to consider the environmental impacts pursuant to CEQA. any building that's determined to be historically significant through the 50-year process would automatically have to go through these findings as well. Does that, I don't know if I answered your question. |
| 00:43:11.24 | Jonathan Leone | No, I want to make sure that that's the case. And since I'm pro-development at any cost, I want to make sure that this does apply to the 50-year and older structures, even though it's not specifically called out. |
| 00:43:12.54 | Heidi Burns | Thank you. |
| 00:43:25.14 | Heidi Burns | That's correct. It would only apply for those permit or projects that require discretionary permits. discretion meeting action by the Planning Commission, zoning administrator, or city council. |
| 00:43:37.22 | Jonathan Leone | So is it, Mary, is it belt and suspenders to actually include language to that effect in this sort of, I don't even know if this is being amended at the top here, if that, what section, I forgot to bring my sound words with me, but. |
| 00:43:48.92 | Mary Wagner | but Yeah, the section that's being amended is the design review finding section. The section on the top is not, oh, you want to, what section is that you're asking? Yeah. But I think that the broader question that you're asking and the applicability of all the city's regulations to 50 year or older structures is the next step. |
| 00:43:56.51 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:43:56.55 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. Thank you. and the other. |
| 00:44:05.03 | Herb Weiner | Right? |
| 00:44:05.42 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 00:44:07.03 | Mary Wagner | And that's the step that staff is working working on the RFP or has released the RFP, for a consultant to update all of our regulations regarding historic guidelines and that that will be addressed in that process. So if you want to add- |
| 00:44:23.23 | Jonathan Leone | So if we did it here, would it cause harm to insert this here? Would it be unintended consequences? It would only cause harm if you're in |
| 00:44:28.27 | Mary Wagner | It would only cause harm if a 50-year-old project isn't subject to a discretionary review because then you have some, you have a, an inconsistency between all the regulations and we'd have to go back and look at whether that's inconsistent or consistent. |
| 00:44:43.17 | Heidi Burns | And the aforementioned language up at the top is basically identified under the triggers, which would require a designer review permit. So if the language would be modified, to have a trigger that for any building that's 50 years or older, it would need a design review permit than Thank you. |
| 00:45:02.01 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, you'd be creating a new category of items. |
| 00:45:06.11 | Jonathan Leone | Right. So I know there's a lot of nuances to changing the zoning ordinance, and you have to make sure it hits all the right areas to make this apply. But my concern, it's not really a concern, my hope would be in the interim between this period of where you have this applying, you know, making these particular categories much clearer than they've been in the past in terms of what guidelines you use to review things. you still have a very broad and gray area or more gray or less of a roadmap inside 50 or an older until we go through this RFP and da-da-da-da-da. I know we have to do that so we catch all the right eyes and hit the right sections. |
| 00:45:06.12 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. Right. So, |
| 00:45:45.17 | Jonathan Leone | Um, Can we just maybe come back with a policy that will – as an adoptive policy that will tide us over between this point and whenever we go through that whole round of amendments for the 50-year and older structures as to direct? |
| 00:46:01.07 | Mary Wagner | Councilmember Leon, I don't know if we can do something that will cover it in that period of time absent a modification of the zoning ordinance. And I don't think that this section is the place to make that. |
| 00:46:08.90 | Herb Weiner | AND I THINK THAT'S A Yeah. |
| 00:46:12.46 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. change, it would be a broader change. And if the council directed that change tonight, we'd have to come back to you. a first read and we'd have to come back with a second read. |
| 00:46:20.32 | Herb Weiner | We have to. |
| 00:46:20.71 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 00:46:22.35 | Mary Wagner | I think we understand the issue that you're raising and we'll certainly identify it when we bring forward the next phase of the historic guidelines to clarify that. But I'm concerned that we're creating an inconsistency and making it less clear if we add it here. |
| 00:46:30.31 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 00:46:35.97 | Jonathan Leone | I agree. |
| 00:46:41.70 | Jonathan Leone | No, I understand. |
| 00:46:43.37 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor. Yay. |
| 00:46:44.96 | Jonathan Leone | Amen. |
| 00:46:45.28 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 00:46:45.31 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:46:45.33 | Linda Pfeifer | you Thank you. So, Heidi, I have a question. I know that I guess there's kind of an in-between state where sometimes the historic structure is eligible. deemed eligible for listing on the national or state register, you know, but for whatever reason we haven't gone through the process of getting it formally listed. So what about, would there be, would it be possible and would it make sense, I guess to include something in this statement that would allude to that. or remodeling of any structure listed or on the National or State Register of Historic Places, you know, are eligible as such. |
| 00:47:39.43 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 00:47:39.89 | Mary Wagner | If I can jump in Councilmember Pfeiffer and see if I can address that question and then Heidi can fill in the blanks that I leave. Hopefully not many. But I think it's the same question because I think there's a very distinct process that you have to go through. under national regulations, state law for for structures that are listed on those registers and then the city zoning ordinance and other regulations that deal with local register structures, and it's a notice and hearing process that you have to go through to get those structures listed. So to I think it's the same issue that we need to go through all of those regulations and that by adding something here I don't believe it would... give you the teeth that you're looking for. I think the process to get a structure on the local register is already defined. |
| 00:48:32.07 | Linda Pfeifer | So I have a follow-up question for Mary on that. So, and this, it's just a question. Thank you. It's my understanding that there is a separate category of being eligible to be listed, that there's a process that a structure has to go through even to kind of jump through the hurdles and hoops to be able to be eligible. Is that correct? |
| 00:48:58.85 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. I would look to Heidi, I think this goes back to the process that we went through with the machine shop and whether or not it was eligible to be listed on a certain register, gave it a status on another register. I don't know if the same issue exists with your local register. |
| 00:49:06.05 | Linda Pfeifer | whether or not it was a |
| 00:49:19.26 | Linda Pfeifer | But with the state or the national, is that the case? That a structure would have to jump through, you know, kind of meet a certain bar to be In other words, the reason I bring it up is because it's my understanding that even to have the designation of being eligible to be registered. is actually a higher bar than just, hey, we should look into this structure. Is that the case? |
| 00:49:46.80 | Heidi Burns | It is, and your question actually covers a couple different subjects. One is regarding the California Environmental Quality Act. If a building is eligible for a state or national register, then that automatically requires heightened review and compliance with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for the treatment of historic properties. The other element to this, which is the bar, is the actual preparation of the DPR 523 forms that essentially identifies what the property is. It identifies what the character defining features which makes that property historically significant are. And it also identifies the four criteria as to whether or not it's historically significant. One would be it's associated with a person, the other that it's associated with an event, the other is that it has a special type of architecture vernacular, and the other one is that it has some type of archeological prehistory significance. So in terms of the city of Sausalito's current inventory, the State Office of the Historic Preservations database has a listing of those properties that are eligible for the |
| 00:50:51.81 | Herb Weiner | that |
| 00:50:52.75 | Heidi Burns | the state and national register, the majority of those properties are within our historic overlay zoning district. So the current language actually addresses that. |
| 00:51:01.59 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Mm-hmm. |
| 00:51:01.95 | Debbie | you |
| 00:51:02.00 | Heidi Burns | Another piece is that we do have a listing of, I believe, 64 noteworthy structures. Those are also, the majority of those buildings are identified on the State and Historic Office of Preservation's website as being eligible. And the Historic Landmarks Board is actually... |
| 00:51:14.72 | Debbie | Thank you. |
| 00:51:17.88 | Heidi Burns | working on a project where we're essentially updating those DPR forms to try to populate our local register. |
| 00:51:26.00 | Linda Pfeifer | So follow-up question, if I may, Mr. Mayor. It's still the same question, really, then. is you said the majority. of the majority. So I'm really kind of zooming in on the minority groups that kind of fall through the loopholes. And because those are the. |
| 00:51:39.36 | Valerie Pitts | Yeah. |
| 00:51:44.29 | Herb Weiner | So try to keep it at a question, please. |
| 00:51:46.58 | Linda Pfeifer | So my question is, would it make this statement stronger to include those structures eligible as well? |
| 00:51:54.70 | Heidi Burns | I don't believe it's necessary only because of the California Environmental Quality Act. In our zoning ordinance, well, state law requires it, but in our zoning ordinance, it specifically says that when you have a discretionary permit, it automatically needs to comply with CEQA. In CEQA, you have a listing of statutory exemptions and categorical exemptions. One would be 15331, I believe, or 15332, which speaks to historic properties. Again, if it's eligible, there's automatically a trigger that's going to require heightened review of that, which would be a special report by an architectural historian. So the city is going to be able to analyze what those impacts on that building would be. |
| 00:52:03.12 | Stephan Bühn | I know. |
| 00:52:12.40 | Stephan Bühn | categorical. |
| 00:52:19.83 | Stephan Bühn | Again, it's... going to require. |
| 00:52:36.70 | Linda Pfeifer | And that would include a design review permit. Thank you. |
| 00:52:40.21 | Heidi Burns | Yes, it was. |
| 00:52:40.84 | Linda Pfeifer | Okay. |
| 00:52:41.22 | Debbie | Thank you. |
| 00:52:43.72 | Herb Weiner | Any other questions up here? |
| 00:52:45.04 | Mike Kelly | Have you looked at San Francisco's most recent ordinances, particularly the one that set up the historic preservation board? |
| 00:52:53.54 | Heidi Burns | I have looked at it, and we will be looking at that and analyzing it through our historic regulations update. And just to give you an update on that process, we originally sent out a proposal to qualified consultant agencies to prepare, well, request for proposals, to prepare proposals for the work. And we only received two responses back. So in the meantime, the city became certified local government. So with that, we had to include additional items in that RFP. And the draft is completed, and we're hoping to release it next week sometime. |
| 00:53:29.66 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:53:29.67 | Heidi Burns | Thank you. |
| 00:53:30.04 | Herb Weiner | Okay. |
| 00:53:31.16 | Linda Pfeifer | And Mr. Mayor. |
| 00:53:31.21 | Herb Weiner | All right. Thank you. |
| 00:53:32.34 | Linda Pfeifer | I had another question with respect to the changes that were a result of Michael Rex's comments, if I may. Go ahead. So, Heidi, I think it was the first slide where you were reviewing the edits per Mr. Rex's input. And I guess I had a question with respect to the insert of in-kind. Is that clear as to the definition? mission. I know you have a lot of questions. I know you have a question with respect to the insert of in kind. Is that clear as to the definition? I know you have materials, detail, finish, but that is as, would you say that in kind |
| 00:53:39.90 | Herb Weiner | Your friend. |
| 00:53:40.25 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 00:54:07.34 | Linda Pfeifer | in In kind, that phrase is as strong as with one that is simplified interpretation of the original. |
| 00:54:15.56 | Heidi Burns | Yes. |
| 00:54:16.74 | Linda Pfeifer | OK. |
| 00:54:17.34 | Heidi Burns | because in kind is basically a replication of what was previously there and that includes materials and finishes. |
| 00:54:23.64 | Linda Pfeifer | Okay, thank you. Thank you. And then with respect to or a simplified interpretation may be considered Does that substantially change the impact of what we're going for here? |
| 00:54:42.62 | Heidi Burns | Wintour & Company actually came up with this language and so with that they believe that this statement is consistent with the Secretary of the Interior Standards. |
| 00:54:51.48 | Linda Pfeifer | Okay. And my last question is the even if in subtle ways, the last edit was, I mean, I saw that in, and, It just seems, it struck me as seeming to downplay the historic, you know, going back to that bar. Mm-hmm. |
| 00:55:16.19 | Herb Weiner | questions. |
| 00:55:17.05 | Linda Pfeifer | So would you say that that addition was kind of downplaying, or do you think that still protects us? |
| 00:55:26.09 | Heidi Burns | It still protects us. You know, each building is so unique and reviewed on a case-by-case basis, and you never know what you're going to find with these character defining features that make these buildings historically significant. So in some cases, and the Secretary of the Interior Standards allow. some subtle ways that allows us to approve those types of modifications if it doesn't significantly alter those features which make it historic. So this is completely consistent and appropriate. |
| 00:55:43.85 | Stephan Bühn | All right. |
| 00:55:54.73 | Jonathan Leone | you |
| 00:55:54.78 | Herb Weiner | Absolutely. |
| 00:55:55.03 | Jonathan Leone | um mr mayor i might some of the questions that have been raised tonight kind of highlight that maybe at some point um it'd be educational for those who have not served as planning commissioners and maybe to have the planning folks put on a little you know of what historic preservation is all about and what the criteria are and how the process works and so that way you know It's confusing if you haven't had to live through it a number of times, so that might be something that might be of use, Jeremy, at some point to come back with just a presentation of what CEQA means and how CEQA bolts onto this stuff, bolts onto CEQA essentially, so. |
| 00:56:36.09 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:56:37.19 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 00:56:37.22 | Herb Weiner | Okay, any other questions? At this time here, would the public like to have any comment on this? Michael. |
| 00:56:45.44 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 00:56:48.66 | Michael Rex | Michael Racks, local architect. And this is a long time in coming. I'm proud of what the city's put together. I particularly want to thank staff and the historic landmarks for it. particularly Heidi for shepherding this to this point. This will be, as far as I understand, the first time that our town will have a set of guidelines that can be applied when a discretionary review application comes before the city. And we've been somewhat limited in our ability to review important historic projects without such guidelines. The comments that I've raised, I've actually, currently I raised back when this was before the public in a workshop format, and I was told then that, subtle ways would be possible to distinguish new work from original work on a historic building. But that terminology didn't make it into the guidelines, and that's why I suggest that it be added now. But, My primary concern, there's two things. One's when you replace a component of an historic building I kind of shuddered at the thought that we were going to, through guidelines, almost mandate Um, a simplified interpretation which could be a watered-down parity that would be inappropriate. the inserting language in kind simply gives an option to do a full restoration of that component. And I think that options should be made available to the applicant. Um, The change allows some way of distinguishing old from new, When you add to an historic building, Um, was again to provide an option, but you wouldn't have to... It really defines the degree that you'd have to distinguish old and new. This, the way it was originally written, doesn't distinguish to what degree Would something new have to be a drastic difference? or could it be something subtle? The consultant the city hired to write this said it could be subtle, and so I simply asked them, can you say that so the guidelines clear and that options made available? So I think these are minor changes, but words are important, and we're going to be using these guidelines for discretionary review, so I ask that you approve these changes that the Historic Landmark Board Subcommittee looked at, your consultant looked at, and staff looked at, and all think it's consistent with the intent of what we're trying to do here. |
| 00:59:41.24 | Herb Weiner | Thank you, Michael. |
| 00:59:46.49 | Vicki Nichols | I'm just going to say a few words for our chair, Morgan Pierce, who has a voice thing. So he asked if I would get up and speak. He's got a little cold. |
| 00:59:50.88 | Jonathan Leone | and asked if I You might want to switch seats. |
| 00:59:55.28 | Vicki Nichols | have a chance. I just wanted to say from the perspective of the Landmarks Board, we did see Mr. Rex's letter, and furthermore, we fully agree with all the language that Nori has presented here. And to just add on to this, even in subtle ways, I'm sure you didn't remember every page, but there is a section in this that's illustrative of doing exact replication and more simplified and even less simplified thus the subtle effects. So you're still replicating the components in a little bit more simplified manner. So it's also illustrated to back up the narrative. But I hope that you would see fit to recommend them, and I hope that we can clap our way out of your approval this evening. Thanks. |
| 01:00:44.14 | Herb Weiner | Yes. |
| 01:00:44.36 | Vicki Nichols | Thank you. |
| 01:00:44.37 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:00:44.57 | Herb Weiner | Thank you, Vicky. Anybody else? Okay, let's bring it back up here. |
| 01:00:49.06 | Mary Wagner | Mr. Mayor, if I may, I just want to point out to the Council that the change that you directed to the ordinance that it includes A parenthetical reference that the adopted guidelines can be found in the Community Development Department or the Office of the City Clerk is in the text of the ordinance that's in front of you. It wasn't included on the slide, but I wanted to point out to you that that language that you added is in there. |
| 01:01:11.54 | Michael Rex | Okay, thank you. |
| 01:01:12.93 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Okay. I think that the you know, the devil's in the subtlety sometimes with when you codify something. And Mary, my question for you is always when you put may be considered, especially in a reconstruct, you know, this sort of obviously leaves it open for subjective interpretation, you know, at later dates in terms of may be considered. Is there a way to qualify that such that it does not imply implicit that the goal is, that that is a higher goal than reconstructing it from appropriate evidence. So if you say may be considered, obviously that's, you know, is not implying that that will automatically be approved, but it also leaves the door pretty open for um, putting it on the same level as reconstructing from appropriate evidence. |
| 01:02:08.26 | Mary Wagner | level at. |
| 01:02:11.82 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, I'm a little concerned about wordsmithing, something that Winters & Company has spent a lot of time on and has, you know, really analyzed with respect to the guidelines and the state requirements. You know, we could... easily say something that says, you know, if the feature is missing entirely, reconstruct it from appropriate evidence, or if that's not possible, a simplified interpretation may be considered. But I don't know if that's consistent with the manner in which these structures are treated, and I'd be hesitant to recommend to you that you add that without getting a consultation with winners and company. |
| 01:02:46.92 | Jonathan Leone | Well they reviewed this language, is that correct? |
| 01:02:48.81 | Mary Wagner | They reviewed and they actually, I believe they proposed or approved of this language. |
| 01:02:54.23 | Heidi Burns | Thank you. Yes, Winter and Company prepared this specific language. And they were, |
| 01:02:58.75 | Jonathan Leone | How about we just change considered to proposed? Because proposal implies just you can put forward a different concept whereas considered implies the decision-making process. that |
| 01:03:13.24 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, I mean it's up to the council to direct us to make that change if you would like. I agree that proposed is different than considered. So proposed implies that it's going to be. You know you're going to be. |
| 01:03:23.23 | Jonathan Leone | You know you're going to have to justify your proposal versus considered means I can just put something forward, and that could be the only thing I put forward. |
| 01:03:25.36 | Mary Wagner | Yeah. |
| 01:03:38.08 | Jonathan Leone | Heidi, do you have any comments on that? |
| 01:03:39.08 | Herb Weiner | Heidi, do you have any comments on that? |
| 01:03:41.21 | Heidi Burns | Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The Winter and Company and the Historic Landmarks Board are recommending, and staff, are recommending that that language be made just because you never know what you're going to face with these buildings. in the Historic Design Guidelines. These are policy documents, so these are a guiding tool to help you with your project. Thank you. THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 01:04:04.46 | Jonathan Leone | I give. I give. Let's just go for the gut. God bless. |
| 01:04:04.48 | Heidi Burns | All right. |
| 01:04:04.80 | Jonathan Leone | I give. |
| 01:04:05.52 | Heidi Burns | you Thank you. |
| 01:04:06.50 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:04:06.60 | Heidi Burns | Okay. |
| 01:04:06.86 | Jonathan Leone | Bye. |
| 01:04:06.94 | Heidi Burns | Yeah. |
| 01:04:07.11 | Jonathan Leone | I'm sorry. Okay. |
| 01:04:11.19 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. So I'll make a motion to... That's the formal. |
| 01:04:21.37 | Carolyn Ford | We need Heidi's slide back up so we can make a motion. They're also on page. There we go. |
| 01:04:25.49 | Herb Weiner | They're also on page. There we go. |
| 01:04:29.11 | Carolyn Ford | Thanks. |
| 01:04:29.37 | Herb Weiner | There's four votes. 5A1. |
| 01:04:29.38 | Carolyn Ford | There's four. |
| 01:04:30.03 | Herb Weiner | 5A, 5A1. Right. Jonathan up on the board. |
| 01:04:31.97 | Jonathan Leone | Right. Motion to adopt a resolution approving historic design guidelines as modified. There's a clarity to the modifications. Right. |
| 01:04:42.58 | Mary Wagner | The modifications as proposed by staff. |
| 01:04:44.94 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. Do we need to make these separately? Can I make them? Yes, please. Okay. So I make a motion to adopt a resolution approving the historic design kind that is modified. |
| 01:04:49.31 | Mary Wagner | Yes, please. |
| 01:04:50.17 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:04:54.32 | Unknown | So good. |
| 01:04:56.62 | Jonathan Leone | I think you gotta, are we gonna get them all, you can only have three motions on the floor and you've got four. |
| 01:04:57.89 | Mary Wagner | Are we going to get a I would just recommend that you take them one at a time. Okay. All right, okay then. On the first motion, all in favor? |
| 01:05:03.47 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. |
| 01:05:07.32 | Herb Weiner | Aye. Second motion. Any opposed? No. |
| 01:05:07.35 | Mary Wagner | Bye. Bye. |
| 01:05:13.01 | Mary Wagner | Motion carries 5-0. |
| 01:05:14.57 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 01:05:14.63 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Second motion? Motion to repeal resolution number 5253. |
| 01:05:16.33 | Herb Weiner | Yeah, I don't know. |
| 01:05:16.99 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:05:20.75 | Mary Wagner | Second. |
| 01:05:21.98 | Jonathan Leone | All in favor? Aye. Aye. |
| 01:05:23.03 | Mary Wagner | Aye. Aye. Motion also carries, 5-0. |
| 01:05:27.20 | Jonathan Leone | approving a help me out with I-E-S-N slash N-D is negative declaration is the last... |
| 01:05:35.48 | Heidi Burns | Initial environmental study. |
| 01:05:36.73 | Jonathan Leone | There you go. Second. Proving a new environmental, initial environmental study and negative declaration. Second. All in favor? Aye. Closed. |
| 01:05:38.03 | Heidi Burns | Second. |
| 01:05:43.62 | Heidi Burns | Say it. |
| 01:05:45.62 | Herb Weiner | Bye. Thank you. |
| 01:05:49.17 | Jonathan Leone | and a motion to approve the second reading and adoption of an ordinance of the City Council of the City of Sausalito amending this section. 10.54.050.D.1 of the Asosceladum Municipal Code to require design review permits to be consistent with applicable design guidelines. Second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? |
| 01:06:07.87 | Herb Weiner | Bye. |
| 01:06:08.03 | Michael Rex | Aye. Close. |
| 01:06:09.94 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:06:09.99 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 01:06:10.04 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:06:10.06 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 01:06:10.08 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Michael. |
| 01:06:10.97 | Mary Wagner | THANK YOU. |
| 01:06:11.06 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:06:11.19 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 01:06:11.28 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you, Michael. Thank you. And thank you, Heidi. |
| 01:06:14.23 | Herb Weiner | Bye. Thank you. I'm not going to be here. . |
| 01:06:16.78 | Herb Weiner | Okay, next business item we have is endorsement for the concept of food scrap recycling. Andy. Thank you, Heidi. |
| 01:06:16.84 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Yeah. |
| 01:06:29.01 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:06:44.97 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:06:55.88 | Andrew Davidson | I would like to thank The mayor, city council, city manager, director of public works, citizens, and of course the Sociology Sustainability Commission for the opportunity to introduce food scrap recycling here in Sausalito. My name is Andrew Davidson. I'm staff engineer with your Department of Public Works. I will be brief as the chairman of the Sustainability Commission, Mr. Ray Gerges, will describe what food scrap recycling is, why it's important, and how to make it happen here in Sausalito. |
| 01:07:27.74 | Andrew Davidson | The city is a member of the Marin Hazardous and Solid Waste Joint Powers Authority, the JPA, which has set a zero waste disposal goal by 2025. The JPA board is made up of city and town managers and the county administrator. and is the group charged with complying with the California Integrated Waste Management Act of 1989. The goal of this act is to reduce the flow of land, materials flowing to landfills. As you know, Bay City's Refuse is your solid waste collector. The current agreement with BCRS includes unlimited curbside green waste pickup twice a month along with vegetable scraps. |
| 01:08:12.27 | Andrew Davidson | some of the issues and costs associated with this. There will be an attraction of animals to your green waste containers. This would be similar to current issues related to food waste in your garbage cans and is manageable by having lids that close and by placing containers about two feet away from adjacent surfaces from which animals can reach up and remove the lid. The frequency of green waste food scrap pickup will increase from twice a month to weekly. food scrap recycling fell below the City Council's priority list. It was place 37, and while projects 29 and above were above that line. |
| 01:08:52.72 | Herb Weiner | I try. Yes. |
| 01:08:54.47 | Andrew Davidson | It had a good number though. |
| 01:08:55.50 | Herb Weiner | Sorry. |
| 01:08:57.01 | Andrew Davidson | The cost of food scrap recycling program would have to be negotiated between the city and BCRS. So it is currently unknown. However, as of April of this year, communities that do have food scrap recycling have increased their monthly rates by an average of $1.45. there would be additional costs in terms of staff time. Now, as a means of moderating any increase in your cost, Full enforcement of the Sausalito Municipal Code section 122440, which is entitled Garbage Collection and Disposal, would ensure full participation in garbage pickup services, increasing the number of residents paying and basically improving or increasing the base for that service. |
| 01:09:46.45 | Andrew Davidson | So tonight, we will be asking you, the council, to endorse the concept of food scrap recycling, direct the sustainability commission to conduct public outreach, direct staff and BCRS to develop a food scrap recycling program to be presented to the city council at a future meeting. And now I would ask that the chairman of the Sustainability Commission, Mr. Gerges, present to you food scrap recycling for Sausalito. |
| 01:10:33.09 | Ray Gerges | Yes, I am in fact, Ray Gerges, the chairman of the Sustainability Commission. And I'm going to give you... |
| 01:10:39.54 | Herb Weiner | I'm going to give |
| 01:10:43.84 | Ray Gerges | and I'm going to be giving you a presentation on that subject. So welcome aboard to the proposed food scrap recycling for Sausalito. I'm going to make a couple of comments before I go into my PowerPoint presentation. We began talking about this almost two years ago, and it slowly came into fruition in the form of a report. It should have happened much sooner. That report wasn't submitted to the Council until May 23rd of this year, and you may have gotten copies of that report at that time. I take the responsibility for delaying it to that extent of time. And with that in mind, I would say that it's long past due for Sausalito |
| 01:11:40.86 | Ray Gerges | The things I'm going to be telling you tonight, not only be repetitive, Repetitive from what Andy said. but you may also be knowledgeable of some of the things I'm going to tell you. But I have to assume the worst condition, and that is that you don't. So bear with me for some of that. I would like to compliment our staff for the good staff report that was given to you, and due credit is due, I think, to Andy Davidson. |
| 01:12:14.19 | Ray Gerges | As you've already heard, Wren County has adopted a zero waste program to be fully implemented by 2025. I must say that that is an ideal goal. with emphasis on goal. I would be amazed if we got full implementation of zero waste by 2025. But it is a goal that is worthwhile working towards by all means. |
| 01:12:45.56 | Ray Gerges | The food scraps can account for over 20% of landfill, and that is by weight, I'm sure. I will have to say at this time that we're only considering recycling food waste from residents Mostly because, if not only because, The volume coming from restaurants is too great and too concentrated. We depend, in essence, to mix it with green waste. But as you know, food waste from restaurants doesn't have any green waste. So none of the cities in Marin County have yet attained the ability to recycle food waste from restaurants. That is certainly part of the goal. And Sausalito is the only city left in Marin County which has not yet adopted a food scrap recycling program. Even the county of Marin has such a program. |
| 01:13:57.80 | Ray Gerges | This is simply a picture of what a dump looked like before there was any recycling. Everything went to the dump at that time. Fortunately, I don't think any dump looks like that now. This is more like what we see as the result of recycling. We see compost used on farms and vineyards to rebuild healthy soils. And it is a very positive goal. In the not too distant past, there was some negative feeling about using compost material on agricultural lands that grew products for public consumption. I firmly believe that that has largely, if not entirely, disappeared now. |
| 01:14:57.59 | Ray Gerges | Now, if we divert organics from the landfills, we will achieve all these things. We will help meet that zero waste goal. We will conserve natural resources. and we will replenish healthy soils with organic matter and nutrients. The use of this reduces the use of artificial or synthetic fertilizers, pesticides, peat, water, and energy for landscaping and agriculture, and obviously it decreases the amount of landfill production. Running off. And that's mostly because food weights have a high moisture content, and when it's dumped in the landfill, that moisture just settles down and becomes part of the drainage of the landfill. And of course, it reduces greenhouse gas emissions and captures carbon. |
| 01:16:02.73 | Ray Gerges | This is largely self-explanatory. When we dump food materials into the land dump, a lot of methane is created. Methane is very injurious to the environment. You see a number there, it's about 72 times more potent than carbon dioxide as far as damage to the environment. So the less food scraps that we could dump into the landfill, the cleaner our air becomes. |
| 01:16:38.42 | Ray Gerges | And compost and mulch also saves energy and emissions by reducing, as it was already said, reduces water, fertilizer, and pesticide use. you The next slide, I think, is very graphic. uh, And this has to be looked at in terms of a given amount of food waste that would generate the first bar graph with about 55 metric tons of carbon dioxide. |
| 01:17:16.79 | Ray Gerges | If the landfill is generating electricity, that amount of CO2 emissions decreases. if they find a way to burn that stuff off, the CO2 goes down. almost to zero. If we compost that same amount of food waste, you can see what happens. we actually take CO2 out of the air instead of putting it into the air. |
| 01:17:55.64 | Ray Gerges | Gee, okay, we're there. This simply illustrates that When you dump food waste into a landfill, you're not completing the cycle. It ends there at the landfill. If that same food waste goes into composting The cycle becomes complete. What starts from the soil goes back to the soil. Very simple and basic. |
| 01:18:32.56 | Ray Gerges | Now there are many things that can go into food waste and not just food waste. The first picture you see is meat, fish, naturally vegetables, but the other things illustrate anything from pizza boxes to cardboard cups to milk cartons and so forth, as well as the picture on the far right, regular green waste. So it can take a lot of things besides just food waste. |
| 01:19:12.37 | Ray Gerges | This might look pretty ugly, but it represents a pile of stuff that includes food scraps. This is the way it looks when it arrives at a composting facility. this is what happens to it. during the composting process and the picture in the lower right hand corner is the end product. And now that is ready to go back to the soil. |
| 01:19:42.49 | Ray Gerges | So how can we make this happen in Sausalito? |
| 01:19:49.49 | Ray Gerges | Well, it involves several things, of course. and I have to get to my notes before I can say. The first thing that we see has to happen is that these our city manager must meet with Bay City's Refuge, and hopefully that meeting would include representatives of our Sustainability Commission. And the purpose of that would be to define the program. As I see it, there are four basic elements that would make up the program. Number one, we have to go, as already been mentioned, to a weekly pickup instead of basically every two weeks. It has to be every week because of that food going into that bin. Secondly, we have to have special containers, not just containers to put up there for PCR-Rest to pick up, but the people that are doing this program do have to have some special containers, which they keep in their house until it's time to bring that stuff up to the green waste container. |
| 01:21:08.47 | Ray Gerges | BCRS also has to have a collection methodology. They have to get some new equipment in order to pick up these new type of containers. And, of course, the final element, a very critical one, is cost. It will cost more. There's just no way of getting out of it. And you already heard from Andy that the average cost amongst the cities in Marin County so far averages $1.45. BCRS has estimated that it may cost us as much as $2 a month additional to go this route. Now there are ways, there may be ways to ameliorate that somewhat. because at the present time, our garbage rate includes weekly sweeping downtown and bathroom clean up on a seven day a week basis. It also includes unlimited green waste. Most towns in Marin County do limit the amount of green waste that you can put out every week. We have unlimited green waste. We also have two general cleanups per year. These are all very nice things to have, but if we feel that we have a problem in the initial cost, it is possible to lower that cost by either reducing those things or having to pay for it in some other way. The second thing, the city must negotiate with BCRS to modify the existing contract that we have, including that rate increase. |
| 01:23:17.07 | Ray Gerges | The third bullet says that the Sustainability Commission and the Green Team is willing to undertake a public education program in order to get the people to better understand what's involved here, the responsibility thereof, and the cost thereof. |
| 01:23:40.73 | Ray Gerges | I myself feel that before we would undertake such a program that we would like some guidance from Adam as to what he would like to see us do in that regard. Lastly, we would like to see you formally approve the DEVELOP program and the resulting contract amendment by January 1, 2012. Whether or not you can make that, that's up to you. But we would like to set that as a goal. |
| 01:24:16.09 | Ray Gerges | So my recommendation to you is that we vote, that you vote to endorse the concept of food scrap recycling and direct our staff to develop the program. Before I entertain questions, I would like to let you know, I think I've done this once before with you, that we are all very fortunate, including the City Council, to have an excellent sustainability commission. And I'm not talking about me, because I just try to control those people. |
| 01:24:53.97 | Ray Gerges | They are very diligent, they're very imaginative, and they're good workers. So we are very fortunate to have all of them. |
| 01:25:05.38 | Ray Gerges | Another concluding comment is that When we had a booth for the Caledonia Street Fair, It was there just to let people know what we do and what they can do. But we also had a paper there that said, I endorse food scrap recycling. And they had a place to sign your name, and we asked for only Saucydeo citizens to sign their name And we didn't push it. We just have the paper there for them to see. And that's important to know. With that in mind, we got 130 signatures. without even trying. Uh. Now I'll be glad to try and answer your questions, but I'm going to tell you, that there are at least two people in our audience tonight Kuchen. give you some additional information. One of the persons represents the Marin County Food Scrap Recycling Task Force. That would make a dandy acronym, I think. Thank you. |
| 01:26:08.96 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 01:26:10.06 | Ray Gerges | And the other person is a resident of Sausalito, but he is also in overall charge of the recycling program in the city and county of San Francisco. And they are years ahead of us in the program. So with that in mind, It's up to you now. |
| 01:26:27.96 | Herb Weiner | Okay. |
| 01:26:28.01 | Ray Gerges | Thank you. |
| 01:26:28.45 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor, do you have a question? |
| 01:26:28.49 | Herb Weiner | . Question? Go ahead, Mr. Kelly first, and then Linda. |
| 01:26:33.33 | Mike Kelly | uh, There's 350 people that aren't paying garbage service or are not taking advantage of garbage service. Is that right? In the report, I read 350 residences. |
| 01:26:45.04 | Andrew Davidson | Andy. Yes, according to VCRS. |
| 01:26:49.51 | Mike Kelly | Okay, and how do they dispose of their trash? We don't know. |
| 01:26:52.73 | Andrew Davidson | it's possible that they put them out in the public trash. |
| 01:26:56.40 | Mike Kelly | Bye. And so therefore, they would be, this program would encompass those and try to get those people back on them. Is it track again? |
| 01:27:05.27 | Andrew Davidson | I'm not sure it would help get them. I think it's an enforcement issue about getting them to do it. |
| 01:27:11.77 | Mike Kelly | That was my second question. Who enforces the code? It's supposed to be base citizens or base citizens. |
| 01:27:18.22 | Andrew Davidson | They're the ones with the information. Whether or not they enforce it, I do not know. |
| 01:27:21.79 | Mike Kelly | Okay, so then, and then last but not least, my third question is, I keep asking this to the Seward District and I keep saying no, |
| 01:27:28.97 | Jonathan Leone | Uh-oh, you're talking to the man over here. Watch out. I know, I know, I know. So I got him. So I'm going to ask him. |
| 01:27:30.67 | Mike Kelly | I'm not sure. |
| 01:27:30.76 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:27:30.86 | Mike Kelly | I know, I know, I know. So I got it. So I'm going to ask you. So doesn't composting, won't composting take an enormous load out of solids out of the sewer system? |
| 01:27:42.52 | Jonathan Leone | you don't use your garbage disposal. |
| 01:27:44.51 | Mike Kelly | Yeah. |
| 01:27:44.96 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. |
| 01:27:45.57 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 01:27:45.62 | Ray Gerges | Thank you. |
| 01:27:45.77 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 01:27:47.23 | Ray Gerges | Incidentally, the best friend of the plumber is that garbage disposal. The less you put down there and into the food waste stream, recycling stream, the better off your plumbing bill will be. |
| 01:27:51.09 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:27:51.12 | Mike Kelly | Yes. |
| 01:27:51.36 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:27:53.84 | Mike Kelly | Yeah, recycling. I love you. Yeah, because I went on the web after I heard that the last time somebody from the district told me it didn't matter, and I found that it does matter. It was a huge amount of particulate and solids. Okay, thank you. Good. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:27:58.02 | Ray Gerges | I went on the |
| 01:28:04.22 | Ray Gerges | to. |
| 01:28:09.58 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 01:28:10.09 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 01:28:10.11 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 01:28:10.12 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you, Mr. Mayor. So thank you, Mr. Gurgis, for the presentation. |
| 01:28:10.18 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 01:28:17.65 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. So my question, oops, oops, one more question. Go ahead. |
| 01:28:23.05 | Herb Weiner | Go ahead. |
| 01:28:25.90 | Linda Pfeifer | Is it possible to, I heard curbside, and as you know in Sausalito we have vertical living. A lot of people have multiple 10, 20, 30 steps up to their front door. And I fully support this food scrap. program and in investigating it, I was wondering if you could look at moving that from a curbside service to, you know, the front, the, I don't know what they call it, but the backyard service or whatever. |
| 01:28:57.43 | Ray Gerges | My understanding with the BCRS, if a given resident will specify where their garbage can is going to be, wherever it is on the property, BCRS will go down to that place and pick up the garbage there. Other cities in Marin County do not allow that. They charge extra if the garbage man has to go any distance from street style. |
| 01:29:02.13 | Herb Weiner | I've given a row. |
| 01:29:16.81 | Michael Rex | OK. |
| 01:29:29.79 | Ray Gerges | Yeah. |
| 01:29:31.21 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. Because I ask because historically, as you know, we've had our garbage picked up generally. There are multiple steps. They pick it up at the top. So I was just curious about the curbside versus the backyard service. Yeah. Thank you. |
| 01:29:48.51 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:29:48.54 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:29:48.74 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:29:48.84 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:29:48.98 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 01:29:49.03 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:29:49.77 | Jonathan Leone | member leon yeah i think the difficulty here linda is is it needs to be mixed with the green waste so unless you're going to have your your lawn clippings and your branches also in your trash can and currently that's all curbside right so the |
| 01:29:50.35 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 01:30:04.47 | Jonathan Leone | and they only have that one can that they carry on their back. So unless they want to, which I don't know how they do it. Because it's a heavy can. I use a lot of trash. |
| 01:30:12.69 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:30:12.72 | Herb Weiner | They use a lot of trash. |
| 01:30:14.83 | Linda Pfeifer | I'm a young man. |
| 01:30:14.85 | Herb Weiner | I know. |
| 01:30:14.93 | Jonathan Leone | Bye. |
| 01:30:14.97 | Herb Weiner | youngest person. |
| 01:30:16.06 | Linda Pfeifer | And I'll talk about that at comment. you Thank you. |
| 01:30:20.35 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 01:30:20.38 | Linda Pfeifer | you |
| 01:30:20.42 | Carolyn Ford | Mr. Mayor? |
| 01:30:21.16 | Michael Rex | Yes. |
| 01:30:22.68 | Carolyn Ford | I noticed, I have a question for a city attorney. I noticed that... In the sustainability committee's report, they mention that Sausalito Municipal Code Section 12.24, et cetera, mandates that those 350 residents be part of the pickup and that the city should find a way to enforce the code. Isn't the city responsible then for enforcing the code? Should we not be getting the names and addresses of the people who are not having pick up and start enforcing that, how would we do it? |
| 01:31:07.48 | Mary Wagner | Well, the first thing I would want to do is look at our contract with Bay Cities to see if there's anything in there that talks about assistance in enforcing the code. if the direction of the council is for us to look into that and to move forward on code enforcement, whether it's through Um, the staff planner who is working on code enforcement or some other city staff, we could certainly look at that. In some situations, for example, when somebody drops debris boxes that aren't Bay City's debris boxes, they help with that enforcement. They tell us who the people are and where they're being dropped and they will mention to folks that if some other company has dropped a debris box, they can't have it there. |
| 01:31:45.40 | Stephan Bühn | has dropped. |
| 01:31:48.05 | Mary Wagner | So I would assume that we would do something similar with them, but I would want to first go through the contract and see what, if anything, it says about that particular issue and then move forward with staff and direction from the city manager on how to, and the city council, on how you would want that to roll out. Thank you. |
| 01:32:04.57 | Ray Gerges | The BCRS has told us in the recent past that they, to a large degree, know the addresses that do not participate in garbage pickup. |
| 01:32:18.47 | Herb Weiner | Okay. Thank you. Good night. Any other questions up here? |
| 01:32:22.39 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:32:22.40 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. |
| 01:32:22.69 | Jonathan Leone | Just to add some color to that, so over the least 10 years, Bill remembers most of this. You know, there have been cycles of this where sometimes the Sustainability Commission will actually walk, has walked and gone to each one of these addresses, and it's a thankless and very difficult process to get the people who don't pay to pay. But I may suggest that perhaps we just, once there's some certainty from Bay Cities, which sometimes is a little gray here, just publish the list. Just, you know, publish the list, put it up on the city website. Shame is sometimes a good thing to bring people into paying. |
| 01:33:01.35 | Herb Weiner | How many billion? |
| 01:33:02.70 | Jonathan Leone | Well, you really want to actually, you have to confirm that somebody's actually living in apartment X, you know, and all this other. It's unfortunate, but it's a little bit of a task. |
| 01:33:02.74 | Herb Weiner | Well, you really want to dump on them, huh? |
| 01:33:16.73 | Michael Rex | Mary? |
| 01:33:17.08 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:33:17.37 | Mary Wagner | Ms. Mayor, the other thing I need to verify, and I apologize I don't have that code section in front of me right now, is to ensure that people don't have the ability to deliver their own garbage to other locations and that's just something I would look at also before we started an enforcement program. |
| 01:33:32.17 | Herb Weiner | Okay. |
| 01:33:33.15 | Mary Wagner | That's it. |
| 01:33:36.42 | Herb Weiner | At this time, do you have any comments from the public? Thank you. |
| 01:33:43.96 | Ray Gerges | Mr. Mayor, can I sit down? Yes. |
| 01:33:46.41 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. laughter laughter Thank you. |
| 01:33:48.99 | Ray Gerges | Thank you. |
| 01:33:50.05 | Herb Weiner | You might want to sit in the first row. |
| 01:33:54.39 | Jonathan Leone | . |
| 01:33:54.43 | Herb Weiner | So, |
| 01:33:54.46 | Jonathan Leone | He's headed. |
| 01:33:55.20 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:33:57.01 | Vicki Nichols | Vicki Nichols, I'm really excited about this. Um, no in a couple other cities that they are doing this. So I'm glad that we're finally getting on board. But I have a couple of questions because this does make a difference. I don't know if When this contract is entered into, you need to check to see where this carrier is going to be dumping this compost, or if they're going to keep it close, are they going to be going through Garbarino's system in San Rafael, some people are taking this so far away, like way out in the East Bay or way up north, that really your carbon footprint and everything else with this has been totally reduced and it isn't really being composted. So you need to see from the vendor if you're really trying to do this authentically. And I'd also say that I'm a renter, so my owner pays for each of us to have our own garbage system, so the $2 wouldn't necessarily, I guess it would get passed through my rent to me. But I think for $2, if you're able to compost, you're going to be amazed how much your trash is going to go down. You may be able to reduce the size of your bin the size lower, which is going to reduce that part of your bill anyway. So the cost of composting, I think, would really sort of be equal. I would hate to lose the services or negotiate the services they're already giving us to compensate for the $2. |
| 01:35:17.15 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you, Vicki. Any other public comment? Let's bring it back. Oh. |
| 01:35:22.34 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah, who's the San Francisco, I want to hear from you what your experience has been. |
| 01:35:31.15 | Jonathan Leone | Give us some tips. |
| 01:35:32.18 | Robert Haley | Good evening. I'm Robert Haley. I'm a Sausalito resident, and I'm also the Zero Waste Manager for the City and County of San Francisco. I just want to say that I fully support the presentations I've heard tonight. I'll just make a couple exceptions and answer a couple questions. One is that I would urge you to consider composting at businesses. There's a lot of food scraps there. That's where we started in San Francisco. And to answer a question that was just asked recently, I believe there's a lot of capacity at Richmond at their facility, and that's where your hauler is based out of. So I think that would be a convenient option for a facility. And with respect to people not paying, in San Francisco we put liens on properties that they don't pay. So there's a lot of ways you can get people to pay their bills. And we can talk about lots of other mechanisms short of liens. But to kind of get back to food scraps composting, I was very involved in the development and implementation of food scraps composting in San Francisco over 15 years ago now. |
| 01:36:19.94 | Herb Weiner | Mm-hmm. |
| 01:36:36.32 | Robert Haley | And we've gone so far in San Francisco, it's now mandatory for everyone. All businesses, all residents, all visitors are required to recycle and compost in San Francisco. So we've come a long ways. Food scrap composting is spread throughout the Bay Area and beyond. After San Francisco, it's spread throughout the East Bay. It's spread down the peninsula into the South Bay. It spread throughout Marin and a number of cities, Portland, Seattle, on and on. It's really time for Sauce Leader to catch up. And I just want to say that it's the most crucial thing you can do to achieve 80% landfill diversion and to achieve zero waste. It's the number one programmatic change that can be made in Sausalito. And Sausalito will not achieve either mandate without food scrap composting. So it's really important to take that action. I don't see any real compelling reasons not to take that action from my perspective. And I urge you to vote tonight to make it a priority for implementation. And I'd be happy to answer any questions. You know, we're doing it at thousands of businesses, thousands of apartment buildings, and hundreds of thousands of households in San Francisco. It's been a very successful program. |
| 01:37:52.68 | Carolyn Ford | Mr. Mayor? Yes. I have a question. Excuse me, I have a question. I'm sorry. No, that's fine. Thank you for the information. It's good to hear. I heard earlier that there would be a bit of an issue with starting with the food scraps with businesses. Can you tell us a little bit about how you did that? |
| 01:37:53.91 | Robert Haley | Yes. |
| 01:37:54.22 | Dan Howes | Thank you. |
| 01:37:58.44 | Dan Howes | I'm sorry. |
| 01:38:18.97 | Robert Haley | So in San Francisco, we actually started with the produce terminal, the absolute biggest food generator in San Francisco. The next thing we did was, of all places, a downtown restaurant route. And that was because the last hog farmer was moving too far away from San Francisco to collect the food for his hogs. So we actually worked with our refuse company to take over that route and send it to, of all places, Richmond Sanitary for composting. That was the only facility back in those days. We then built three compost facilities for San Francisco. So I think the key is when you mix restaurants and business food scraps with your yard trimmings, it actually bulks it up very nicely. It's a very good combination. So that's what we do in San Francisco. We mix the two together in most cases. |
| 01:38:40.79 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:39:14.00 | Carolyn Ford | Oh, thank you. And you're available to consult with our sustainability committee and staff? |
| 01:39:20.90 | Robert Haley | I'm happy to. |
| 01:39:21.82 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you very much. |
| 01:39:23.50 | Robert Haley | Thank you. |
| 01:39:23.91 | Jonathan Leone | Council Member Leon. How did you handle the businesses let's say, about, you know, frequency and storage and lack thereof to store. I'm not sure how many times a day you collect from, in San Francisco, collect from restaurants versus normal trash routes. But, you know, the complaint we're going to get, the point that's going to be raised is that, I don't want to store this stuff on site. So I need to have it picked up every day. Um, And then that drives the frequency. So what, how does San Francisco handle that? |
| 01:40:00.95 | Robert Haley | So in San Francisco, we pick up your food scraps as often as we pick up your trash. And if you need seven-day awake collection, seven days a week, we'll do that. But you do pay extra for Saturday and Sunday service in particular. Most restaurants can get by fine with Friday and Monday collection. |
| 01:40:05.56 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 01:40:19.80 | Jonathan Leone | And as far as the, well, this is going to get me in trouble with the health department if I'm storing scraps for two or three days in a, I'm sure you've gotten the litany of reasons why people shouldn't comply. And what's your advice on that? |
| 01:40:29.74 | Stephan Bühn | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 01:40:36.32 | Robert Haley | The state law only requires that it be hauled at least once a week. So there's really no problem having it on premises for a matter of days. |
| 01:40:48.10 | Robert Haley | And also if you containerize it and handle it properly, you can have no health impacts. |
| 01:40:54.78 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 01:40:54.81 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:40:54.83 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 01:40:55.02 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:40:55.07 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 01:40:55.09 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Do you have someone behind you for a question? |
| 01:40:55.96 | Robert Haley | Thank you. |
| 01:40:56.03 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you very much. If you were ever interested in volunteering for the Sustainability Commission. |
| 01:41:03.03 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you. I'll consider that. |
| 01:41:03.86 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. I'll consider that. |
| 01:41:05.94 | Beth Muth | . |
| 01:41:10.64 | Beth Muth | My name is Beth Muth and I'm representing the Marin Food Scrap Recycling Task Force. I've been working with the Sausalito Sustainability Commission for probably about two years on this topic. And just wanted to share with you some of the experience of the other, some of the other cities in Marin who have been working on this for So, um, Marin Sanitary Service, which serves San Rafael and some of the other, a lot of other areas, they have the most experience so far and they've been able to, The amount that's going into their green collection now has increased by 250 tons a month. So it's really significant. And they've had a lot of positive feedback from their their customers about the program. Mill Valley Refuge Service, has seen their increase in their green waste collection of about 169 tons per month. And their uh, drivers believe what they say that now that they've gone to once a week pickup of the green waste, basically everyone is putting at least some food scraps into their yard waste. So they're feeling really positive about the participation rate. And they look at it as sort of like recycling was, you know, started to catch on and it continues to build. So they feel really good about it. Novato. is very new to this food scrap recycling and they don't have any hard numbers yet on the tonnage, but what they've noticed is that people A lot of people are converting down to the smaller garbage cans. And there's been a lot of interest in the program. So I encourage you to Look favorably on the recommendation and direct the staff to come up with a program that will work for Sausalito. Thank you. |
| 01:43:22.69 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Okay, any other comments from the public? Ah, told you you should have stayed up there, right? Go ahead. |
| 01:43:31.13 | Ray Gerges | Thank you. |
| 01:43:35.77 | Ray Gerges | You did hear from Mr. Haley, but he has been, he's done more than just come here tonight. He's been attending some of our meetings, and I treat him as an advisor to us. He helped us to put together the PowerPoint presentation. And Bette Muth has been coming, as she just said, has been coming to our meetings on a regular basis for about a year and a half, and she has done a lot to help us in this entire proposal. |
| 01:44:05.06 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 01:44:05.15 | Herb Weiner | Okay, thank you. One more. Yeah. |
| 01:44:05.62 | Michael Rex | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:44:06.72 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. |
| 01:44:06.78 | Ray Gerges | Thank you. |
| 01:44:06.80 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:44:07.90 | Michael Rex | you |
| 01:44:07.95 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:44:07.97 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 01:44:08.98 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 01:44:09.18 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:44:10.92 | Alexandra Hanson | Hi, my name is Alexandra Hanson. I've been a resident of South Little for nine years now. And I've come here today to address the urgent issue of a lack of composting systems in Sausalito. I think composting is important. because it will reduce the amount of harmful gases that are emitted from landfills into our fragile atmosphere. In landfills, the waste breaks down. and forms methane gas and carbon dioxide. Both are causing climate change. methane can stay in the atmosphere for 9 to 15 years. and carbon dioxide can stay for hundreds of years. Over 20% of the waste in these landfills is compostable. Many big cities such as San Francisco and Berkeley have already taken the initiative to create a better environment by introducing a composting system in their city. Sausalito is one of the only cities in Marin County. that still doesn't have a composting system. Since methane and carbon dioxide affect and stay in our atmosphere for so long, The impact on the environment now can have a lasting effect on the environment of my generation and of many other future generations. I think this is an urgent matter, which I said I must act upon now. |
| 01:45:27.52 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Anybody else from the public? |
| 01:45:27.97 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 01:45:33.91 | Herb Weiner | Okay, let's bring it back up here. Any comments from the Thank you. |
| 01:45:38.18 | Jonathan Leone | All right. |
| 01:45:38.43 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:45:38.47 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Thank you. Can I just add, thank you so much for coming tonight because, and this is Adel McCuller, it's been a year since I met you at your house knocking on your door, and we talked for about 15 minutes about this very topic. And not that I just run around and knock on people's doors during the election. Yes, he does. And, you know, it's great that thank you for staying with this. It takes the government move slowly, but thank you for keeping on board with this, and thank you for coming tonight. I think that's just a tremendous show of determination to do that, and thank you very much for doing that. |
| 01:45:55.71 | Herb Weiner | yes he does |
| 01:46:15.90 | Carolyn Ford | Mr. Mayor, I'd like to add to that. I also, Alexandra and I talked a year or so ago about this very subject. And I know that she has followed it with the sustainability committee and she's been right on top of it. |
| 01:46:16.86 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. |
| 01:46:31.39 | Carolyn Ford | And I think it's so refreshing and so promising to see a young woman of her age. fighting this battle, and so my hat's off to you, Alexandra. Thank you very much. |
| 01:46:47.00 | Herb Weiner | Okay, so now do we have a... Move on the staff recommendation. |
| 01:46:51.37 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Yeah, two things I think that, if you don't mind, I think we need to sort of throw in the mix here in revisiting Bay Cities is, I think they're proposing doing it out of Richmond, if I'm not mistaken, isn't that what you guys have found? So, but I think in there, one of the things that people have commented about in the way Bay Cities charges under our contract now is that you're charged the same amount regardless of the size of your container. |
| 01:46:53.22 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:47:17.34 | Jonathan Leone | So the whole goal here is to eventually reward people for limiting the amount of waste that you generate. So the more you can dump into the free take away and you need to subsidize that, nothing's free. You want to reward people, particularly in, you know, I wouldn't call it vertical living, but living in a multi-unit house where they don't want, they just need a smaller container, regardless of how, because their volume is less if you're by yourself or if you live in a smaller unit or whatever the case may be, or if you're recycling an incredible amount of your trash. Um, So I think that has to be part of this, is part of the discussion with Bay Cities is rewarding those who don't generate as much trash. They don't need your 50-gallon or 30-gallon, I forget what size the trash can is. And that needs to be sort of part of the equation. Obviously that drives the number up on the other side of the you know, for someone like me who has kids who generate a huge volume of trash, diapers. But the, so that, you know, everything's going to balance out in the numbers and the numbers will go up obviously for your trash collection. But it's about time we've done this. Thank you to you folks for driving this even though the council didn't get behind it. I think we should just, we should move it forward even though it isn't on the priority calendar. Though that being said, I think council or city's, Staff should come back and we have to take something off the priority calendar and replace it with this because that's the only way you can you know, balance things off. |
| 01:48:49.32 | Herb Weiner | Okay, so... Do we have a recommendation? |
| 01:48:52.93 | Carolyn Ford | So I move that we endorse, that the council endorse the concept of food scrapping recycling, that we direct the sustainability commission to conduct public outreach, and that we direct staff and VCRS to develop a food scrap recycling program to be presented to the city council at a future meeting and that we direct staff to look into enforcing trash pickup |
| 01:49:02.82 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 01:49:02.98 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 01:49:27.66 | Carolyn Ford | for those who are not currently Having their trash picked up. |
| 01:49:34.48 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:49:35.48 | Mike Kelly | I'd like to amend that motion to also have staff investigate with some priority restaurant and business food scrap pickup. |
| 01:49:36.67 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 01:49:47.56 | Mike Kelly | Yeah. |
| 01:49:47.69 | Carolyn Ford | Thanks. |
| 01:49:47.86 | Mike Kelly | Yeah. |
| 01:49:47.88 | Carolyn Ford | that, |
| 01:49:48.10 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 01:49:48.11 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 01:49:48.13 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 01:49:48.15 | Carolyn Ford | And. |
| 01:49:48.23 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 01:49:48.30 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 01:49:48.34 | Linda Pfeifer | you And |
| 01:49:49.19 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 01:49:49.21 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. |
| 01:49:50.04 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 01:49:50.85 | Jonathan Leone | Sorry, go ahead, Linda. |
| 01:49:51.98 | Linda Pfeifer | And Mr. Mayor, may I? Thank you. |
| 01:49:54.06 | Jonathan Leone | Right. |
| 01:49:54.75 | Linda Pfeifer | I'd like to suggest an amendment to that motion. It's something I've been thinking about for a long time, which is with respect to the yard trimmings and such, it would be great if that didn't have to be curbside. If we could make that picked up with the regular garbage, I think it would be easier for people who are, you know, living in vertical, you know, multiple steps. That's very hard to pull down cardboard and pull down these things for recycling. So my amendment would be to direct staff to explore, I guess, the backyard to pick up not only of the food scraps but, you know, yard trimmings, you know, as well, recycling. |
| 01:50:43.36 | Herb Weiner | Well, my comment on that is that If you look at some of the steep hills and some of these steep stairs, you're going to have just workers there just going up and down the stairs. I think it should be our obligation to have that out on the curb right now. and see how that goes. to burden them I know, I walked this town. And I go up and down the stairs. I don't know. or when I am putting out or communicating with the public. And I think that would be a, at this time here, I think that would be a burden that we're asking them to to do too much. |
| 01:51:25.28 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor, if... |
| 01:51:27.04 | Jonathan Leone | Can we step back for a second so there's a lot of being thrown out once in one thing. Maybe we can... um, Were you commenting on your motion or his comment about your amendment? How about Can we just summarize what it's been so far so we all have it down? So there's the motion for the support. Then there was the ad. |
| 01:51:50.86 | Carolyn Ford | And then there was the added enforcement. |
| 01:51:52.84 | Herb Weiner | in a |
| 01:51:53.48 | Jonathan Leone | You had enforcement and business and then the non-curve side. Okay, so we got a little complicated there. So my suggestion would be that let's tackle the support one first. Let's just pull the motions back apart and adopt that one first, and then we can discuss these other ones. Okay. And... |
| 01:52:10.17 | Robin Sweeney | She's back. |
| 01:52:16.07 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 01:52:16.11 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:52:16.26 | Linda Pfeifer | you And Mr. Mayor, if I may respond. |
| 01:52:19.27 | Jonathan Leone | Who made the first motion? Was it? Carolyn did. Carolyn. So is that, you know, it would be. |
| 01:52:21.39 | Linda Pfeifer | Carolyn did. Carolyn. |
| 01:52:22.91 | Carolyn Ford | you I accepted the amendment. |
| 01:52:27.15 | Jonathan Leone | Would you accept just pulling the support out separately, and then we'll discuss the enforcement, the business recycling, and the- |
| 01:52:32.49 | Carolyn Ford | My first motion included the enforcement. |
| 01:52:32.95 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 01:52:36.85 | Mary Wagner | The first motion included moving staff recommendation to endorse the concept and to direct staff to look into the enforcement issue. |
| 01:52:44.14 | Jonathan Leone | We don't need to adopt a resolution to direct staff. We can just direct staff as far as the enforcement goes. Because you need to research what the enforcement is. |
| 01:52:48.68 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. because you need to know. of surgery. You're being asked to endorse the concept of food scrap recycling and the development of the program. |
| 01:52:56.00 | Jonathan Leone | Right. |
| 01:52:57.08 | Linda Pfeifer | And Mr. Mayor, if I may respond. Thank you. Currently, our contract with Bay Cities Refuse entails them going up the stairs to collect our garbage. And so my intent in moving that from curbside is to enhance the recycling frequency and the likelihood that people would recycle. |
| 01:53:23.49 | Jonathan Leone | Right. |
| 01:53:26.27 | Linda Pfeifer | So that was my point. Thank you. |
| 01:53:26.33 | Jonathan Leone | So that was fun. It's a valid point, but Mr. Mayor, my point is let's tackle this first one first and then let's talk about the... Is it okay if we pull the enforcement out just for the second for this purpose? All right, sure. Yeah, let's just go down. So let's reconsider it. Yeah, no, we'll stay on this item if that's okay. So would you amend your motion to just be this motion to start? Endorse the concept of food staff. |
| 01:53:31.68 | Herb Weiner | person. |
| 01:53:31.96 | Stephan Bühn | I know. Absolutely. |
| 01:53:37.40 | Herb Weiner | purpose. So that's what we consider. Yeah. |
| 01:53:43.05 | Michael Rex | Okay. |
| 01:53:43.42 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:53:49.44 | Carolyn Ford | Enjoy. All right, let's start over. I pulled my motion off the floor, and I move that we request the Sausalito, well, that I move that we endorse the concept, City Council endorse the concept of food scraps recycling, direct the sustainability commission to conduct public outreach and direct staff in VCRS to develop a food scrap recycling program. And if that says the same thing, I move that we endorse the concept of food scrap recycling and direct staff to develop the program. That's my motion. |
| 01:54:03.18 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:54:20.34 | Herb Weiner | Yeah, that's... |
| 01:54:21.41 | Jonathan Leone | to endorse my move? |
| 01:54:28.93 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. I'll second that. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? |
| 01:54:29.98 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. All right. Bye. Then my second motion would be to enforce, direct staff to enforce. |
| 01:54:42.75 | Jonathan Leone | Well, what I was going to suggest is that we direct staff to come back with suggestions on enforcement. Yeah, how well. And obtaining the right data and methodology to enforce, and that's a very good suggestion. We just adopted that lean capability a few years ago, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, I'd have to look into it. See if it applies. And I think what you're going to need to do for all these other nuances, whether it's the business, which I am all in favor of, the business scraps, the restaurant scraps, non-curbside pickup, and... |
| 01:54:49.60 | Michael Rex | Yeah, how are you? Thank you. |
| 01:55:01.06 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, I'd have to look into it that one. |
| 01:55:14.92 | Jonathan Leone | Um, different size containers i think what we'll need to do is look at a matrix of all of those and base cities is basically going to come back and say this is going to cost this this is going to cost that and we'll have to pick and choose and decide how much we want the bill to go up all at once i don't think the businesses needs to be a separate that could be included in this but that can be part of this general discussion but as far as the non-curve side as far as the different size containers and all that other stuff and one of the complaints has always been we don't supply people with containers so all those little nuances in this program we could have them come back |
| 01:55:51.60 | Carolyn Ford | Yes, that's fine. |
| 01:55:53.63 | Jonathan Leone | in their research that we're doing here, and that way we can sort of decide what the financial impact on the monthly bills can be. |
| 01:56:00.19 | Carolyn Ford | Sure. |
| 01:56:03.53 | Jonathan Leone | Does that make sense? So can we direct staff to that? Was that clear enough to staff? |
| 01:56:03.58 | Carolyn Ford | Does that make sense? So can we direct? |
| 01:56:05.81 | Jonathan Leone | just after that. |
| 01:56:07.01 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 01:56:08.46 | Jonathan Leone | Yes. |
| 01:56:09.02 | Carolyn Ford | Okay. |
| 01:56:09.03 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. But we don't need to vote on that. We can just direct. There's a general consensus to direct staff on enforcement and the different components of the... Correct. |
| 01:56:12.44 | Carolyn Ford | Okay. |
| 01:56:18.28 | Herb Weiner | Correct. OK. Yeah. OK. All right. Good. Thank you very, very much. Cheers. . |
| 01:56:25.05 | Herb Weiner | No, no, no. |
| 01:56:25.64 | Herb Weiner | All right. |
| 01:56:25.98 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:56:25.99 | Herb Weiner | Bye. |
| 01:56:29.66 | Herb Weiner | And thank you to the sustainability committee. I know you've really worked really hard on this. |
| 01:56:32.76 | Thomas Neumeier | Yes. |
| 01:56:35.77 | Herb Weiner | So thank you very, very much. Appreciate it. Thank you. |
| 01:56:39.07 | Jonathan Leone | THANK YOU. Okay. |
| 01:56:41.06 | Herb Weiner | All right, next item is the... Because they don't take no for an answer, right? |
| 01:56:42.40 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. Right. |
| 01:56:44.61 | Mary Wagner | I'm sorry. |
| 01:56:46.50 | Herb Weiner | Okay, next item is the update of the zoning code amendments. |
| 01:56:49.84 | Mary Wagner | Mr. Mayor, I believe you moved your, oh sorry. No, we did the 6B. |
| 01:56:51.93 | Herb Weiner | No, we did the 60. Sorry, 60. Yeah. That's the next item. |
| 01:56:53.94 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. that. Thank you. |
| 01:56:56.10 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:56:56.47 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 01:56:56.49 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 01:56:56.82 | Herb Weiner | That's okay. I'm actually on it. You're welcome. Thank you, folks. Jeremy. Mayor, members. |
| 01:57:03.37 | Jeremy | Thank you. Council, as you indicated, the item I'll be covering tonight is the status report of the omnibus zoning ordinance update. As you may recall, at your July 12th meeting, the staff report suggested that the omnibus zoning ordinance update be divided into two sections. One section that we're calling the minor amendments, essentially the low-hanging fruit items of the zoning ordinance update, and then the second, the more challenging items that we termed the policy amendments. Staff requested the, or excuse me, the council requested staff to invite local architects and design professionals to participate in subsequent meetings of the legislative committee. Staff notified 21 local architects and engineers via email notification. And then in later July, the legislative committee began its series of meetings with the staff to review the minor amendments. Local architect Michael Rex participated in meetings in July and August. |
| 01:57:26.09 | Stephan Bühn | hit |
| 01:58:13.89 | Jeremy | And at the conclusion of the August meeting, the legislative committee directed staff to proceed with initiating study sessions at the Planning Commission level on the minor amendments. The Planning Commission subsequently discussed at study sessions the minor amendments two times in September. and we anticipate another meeting of the Planning Commission study session later this month on the minor amendments, and then the Planning Commission would initiate public hearings on the minor amendments. Michael Rex has been participating in all of those as well as Vicki Nichols. On the policy amendments, the legislative committee met and discussed those at their August and September meetings with input from Michael Rex again. Staff is continuing to meet with the legislative committee on a monthly basis to discuss the policy amendments. These are much more involved and there's a fair number of them, so this discussion may continue over several meetings. In addition to these omnibus zoning ordinance update amendments, staff is also working on several other amendments. The first of these shows up on your priority calendar. That's the standards for single family residences and multi-family zones. This is currently at the planning Commission level and a subcommittee of the Planning Commission has been meeting once again with Michael Rex and architect Jeff Butler and real estate agent Sherry Faber. And the last meeting of this group of the Planning Commission subcommittee, was in August, but we are putting progress on that on hold until we can get to a little – we're emphasizing the omnibus zoning ordinance update at this point. We can only, you know, work on so many – have so many irons in the fire at one time. So staff will resume the work on the standards for single-family residences and multi-family zones after the Planning Commission gets completed with its minor amendments on the omnibus. The second other zoning ordinance update we're looking at are the regulations for nonconformity structures and uses, and staff will initiate that work with the legislative committee after the completion of the standards for single family residences and multi-family zones. And also earlier tonight we mentioned the historic regulations that we're going to be proceeding with a request for proposal later this month. And then lastly we have the work on the accessory dwelling units or second units and that will be initiated after the housing element is certified by the State Department of Housing and Community Development. |
| 01:59:18.74 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:01:04.36 | Jeremy | Mary Wagner has been and her ABLE assistant have been providing strong SAF support in the omnibus zoning ordinance update and Mary and I are available for any questions you |
| 02:01:21.97 | Herb Weiner | All right. Any questions for me? I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm going to be on. |
| 02:01:23.82 | Jeremy | Thank you. |
| 02:01:23.84 | Jonathan Leone | What would you guess? I'm sorry. Would you guess that first round is going to come from the Planning Commission here? |
| 02:01:32.60 | Jeremy | We think we'll have one more, the Planning Commission, when do we think it will come back from the Planning Commission? So I would anticipate the Planning Commission would be wrapped up with that in the November timeframe assuming two public hearings over two meetings and then from that it would be making the transition over to the City Council in the December. Possibly it might fall over to the January timeframe depending on other. Thank you. |
| 02:01:57.39 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 02:01:57.69 | Jeremy | you items on the council agenda are lining up. |
| 02:02:02.80 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor, thank you. So, Jeremy, you mentioned the ADU policy would come after the state certification of housing element. And I was just wondering, considering the presumably, you know, presumable application of ADUs in the housing element, If we would as a council be receiving like a draft policy of ADU at the same time as the housing element or a draft. you know. if that timing would be in sync. |
| 02:02:40.57 | Jeremy | So in the housing element itself, there will be goals, policies, and implementation programs, and so there will be a lot of attention in that component of the housing element on the ADUs. What I was mentioning here was the ordinance, the implementing ordinance on that specifically says how large the ADU can be, you know, 250 square feet to 750. You know, the specific regulatory details will not be in the housing element, but the housing element will set the policy that we want to encourage ADUs, we want to set up an amnesty program for ADUs that are already existing, and we want to establish a program for encouraging creation of new ADUs. |
| 02:02:55.57 | Stephan Bühn | implementing |
| 02:03:05.81 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:03:05.97 | Stephan Bühn | Well, no. |
| 02:03:09.66 | Stephan Bühn | Okay. |
| 02:03:25.19 | Linda Pfeifer | Mm-hmm. So you don't see the alignment, I mean, the fact that we're looking at current existing ADUs that may be a certain square footage not being in conflict with a later ADU policy that may establish larger square footage. I'm just wondering if. |
| 02:03:41.91 | Jeremy | Well, we'll certainly fashion our ADU policy in the housing element The council needs to feel comfortable with the ADU policy that is in the housing element before we make the transition of that housing element over to the State Department of Housing and Community Development. And so it would probably be advisable to set a wide range on that ADU policy recognizing that it can be brought down and refined as we go through the regulatory process. |
| 02:03:50.16 | Beth Muth | policy. |
| 02:04:06.43 | Linda Pfeifer | this week. Okay, thank you. That's what I was hoping. you |
| 02:04:12.59 | Herb Weiner | for. |
| 02:04:12.86 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:04:12.88 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:04:12.93 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:04:13.65 | Herb Weiner | Any questions from the public at this time on this item? Thank you. |
| 02:04:19.00 | Jonathan Leone | Okay, let's bring it back up here. just one suggestion on the single to multi-family um for mary actually is we might want to you're going to get the taking question i think at some point here so if we can just resolve that at some point before that you know if you're downsizing zoning is that a take can somebody lob a taking suit at you and that would be something we should um do it's |
| 02:04:23.00 | Herb Weiner | Hmm. |
| 02:04:48.09 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:04:49.19 | Jonathan Leone | which I don't think is the case, because that's what Sony's all about. |
| 02:04:53.88 | Jonathan Leone | Right. |
| 02:04:54.35 | Jonathan Leone | We should at least, it's better to have that armed up front than wait till somebody, till a real estate agent or developer comes in here and loves that later. |
| 02:05:05.09 | Mary Wagner | be happy to address that when that um as the issue makes its way through makes its way through the planning commission and then the city council |
| 02:05:12.95 | Jonathan Leone | But maybe even helpful at this level. Absolutely. Because you're getting that already, I think, to a certain degree. |
| 02:05:13.17 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:05:19.14 | Mary Wagner | Okay. |
| 02:05:21.19 | Herb Weiner | Okay. Jeremy, thank you. Since that was for information only, we'll just move on to the next item. Since I'm for Del Belva today, cost. I don't want to downsize at all. All right. Now, we're going to bring up the item that we took off the consent calendar before, and that's a resolution declaring the city's 1995 ford e350 |
| 02:05:47.90 | Herb Weiner | I believe. |
| 02:05:51.71 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. you |
| 02:05:52.00 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:05:52.03 | Mike Kelly | you |
| 02:05:52.08 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:05:52.10 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:05:52.12 | Herb Weiner | what you want for that day. |
| 02:05:52.13 | Mike Kelly | much. |
| 02:05:52.56 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 02:05:52.98 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:05:53.11 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:05:56.12 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Jonathan Goldman, your Public Works Director. I am delighted to have the opportunity to discuss this matter this evening. I apologize to the council and to Ms. Sweeney for the fact that I may have acted too quickly in bringing this item for surplus. But let me explain a little bit of the context. The van in question is no longer operable, or was not operable. Our mechanics were unable to It was towed to Nevada Ford and an estimate was prepared for based on their diagnosis they indicated Nevada Ford indicated that in order to render it off operable to repair it required would require rebuilding the transmission and the front pump the cost to make those repairs exceeds the value of the vehicle based on the Parks and Recreation directors indication that the vehicle is no longer needed, I directed that it be towed to auction and agreed to bring this resolution to the City Council this evening to take care of the paperwork in doing so. In speaking to Ms. Sweeney earlier today today I find that an organization that she represents was using the ban and was interested in acquiring it from the city or having the city donated or something in order to serve a need that her organization has unfortunately I don't think we're really in a practical position to do that. However, because the vehicle is already at auction, and I think that in order to recover it from auction, you know, we have two alternatives. One is to potentially compensate the auction house for their lost profit and their time in taking it in, then paying to have it towed back to either the corporation yard or somewhere where it would be repaired. Or alternatively, we could seek council permission to go bid on our own vehicle. So I know that Ms. Sweeney pulled the item because she would like to ask some questions and perhaps ask something of the council. I'm certainly available to answer questions or, as I have already offered to her, to try to figure out ways to help the organization that she represents fill the need, but wanted to give you the facts on how we got where we are. |
| 02:08:52.98 | Michael Rex | Okay. |
| 02:08:53.88 | Carolyn Ford | I have a question. |
| 02:08:54.06 | Michael Rex | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 02:08:54.23 | Jonathon Goldman | Bye. |
| 02:08:55.72 | Carolyn Ford | you How did we decide to dispose of this, to send it to auction before we voted on disposing it? |
| 02:09:04.34 | Jonathon Goldman | I decided that it would be unlikely that the council would disagree with the conclusion to avoid the repair costs or avoid storage costs at Nevada Ford while we discussed the item. |
| 02:09:19.21 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:09:19.24 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:09:19.34 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:09:21.92 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor. Yes? |
| 02:09:22.84 | Jonathon Goldman | Yes. |
| 02:09:24.91 | Linda Pfeifer | So, Jonathan, how much money are we talking about? I'm just curious with respect to bringing it back from, you know, compensating. You said compensating the auction house and towing it back. What's the price tag on that? I don't know. |
| 02:09:42.31 | Jonathon Goldman | I don't know. |
| 02:09:43.47 | Linda Pfeifer | Okay. |
| 02:09:43.96 | Carolyn Ford | How much is the fan worth? |
| 02:09:47.25 | Jonathon Goldman | The Kelley Blue Book for a ban in fair condition, as I recall, is $2,800. I would not consider an inoperable ban fair condition. |
| 02:09:58.80 | Carolyn Ford | Yeah. Thanks. |
| 02:10:06.32 | Robin Sweeney | I guess sometimes that depending on how you look at something, the values change. uh, I, I am somewhat retired from. Ah. but still tonight representing something called the Southern Marin Hot Meal Coalition. And, uh, Susan Daniloff is sitting here with me tonight. She's a Saucydeo resident who has taken on the responsibility of this program, which has been running in Southern Marin for I don't know how many years. Thank you. Okay, so that's... And we've had several vans over time and with a collection of churches. in Sausalito, in Mill Valley, in Tiburon, including a temple also in Tiburon, we managed to provide hot lunches and the ability for someone to get to and from these hot lunches. Recently, our own van, the one that we had, expired. And the city has been generous enough to lend us this particular van in question. and then, I got the word just recently that it had expired. And then I discovered, just by scanning the |
| 02:11:22.55 | Stephan Bühn | And |
| 02:11:30.46 | Robin Sweeney | Yeah. Council agenda that was on here to be surplused And by doing a little investigating, I discovered that It could be repaired. And I could understand Jonathan Goldman's contention that Why are you going to spend more money on something than it's worth? But. you know, the value that's involved in giving someone a meal when they're not going to get one otherwise is very different than the value of the Blue Book. At this point, I'm asking if there's any possibility of getting the van back. Now, we do, our program that we do, we do it in conjunction with St. Vincent de Paul organization in San Rafael. Now, if that van were available, they could tow it. away from where it is now, back. to San Rafael, they could repair it and are willing to repair it. in exchange for which we would share that ban with them we would be the primary users for our lunch program, but at other times, then it would be available to them to use. But it may be too late if the thing's been crunched or sold. Well, so much for a good idea. Thank you. I had no way of knowing that this other thing was happening or I would have been |
| 02:13:00.37 | Herb Weiner | I don't know. |
| 02:13:01.06 | Robin Sweeney | Waving my hand a little sooner. |
| 02:13:01.08 | Herb Weiner | Wait. Well, let's see if we can help you out. First of all, um, I don't know what the cost to the auction block would be. It's not a lot. It's not much at this point. The towing. Hm. That's simple. Just a triple A card. And I could use that for you. |
| 02:13:21.95 | Jonathan Leone | I'll give away your secrets here. Please, keep some of it behind the curtain. |
| 02:13:25.21 | Herb Weiner | Um. |
| 02:13:29.28 | Herb Weiner | And, uh, If they're willing to repair that, I think that the, I would be in favor of them. Let's bring it back, or bring it to Santa Fe, let them repair it. And I'm in favor of donating it to your organization. |
| 02:13:53.83 | Jonathan Leone | And what? Thank you. |
| 02:13:55.21 | Herb Weiner | Can we do that? |
| 02:13:55.99 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:13:56.01 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:13:56.02 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:13:56.07 | Mike Kelly | Do it? |
| 02:13:56.43 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:13:56.45 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:13:56.56 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:13:56.58 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:13:56.95 | Jonathan Leone | you |
| 02:13:57.00 | Robin Sweeney | We do have a possibility that Jonathan Goldman mentioned that it may have been crunched or sold already. |
| 02:13:57.07 | Jonathan Leone | No. |
| 02:13:57.74 | Herb Weiner | We do have |
| 02:13:58.72 | Jonathan Leone | We have a... |
| 02:13:59.40 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:14:03.87 | Jonathan Leone | Well, if that happens, there's not much... |
| 02:14:06.25 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:14:06.27 | Jonathan Leone | So bring it down. |
| 02:14:07.04 | Herb Weiner | We'll see. |
| 02:14:07.58 | Jonathan Leone | I'm sorry. |
| 02:14:07.60 | Robin Sweeney | I'm not. |
| 02:14:10.98 | Herb Weiner | I don't know. |
| 02:14:11.28 | Herb Weiner | Now you know what the word clonker means. |
| 02:14:11.84 | Jonathan Leone | you Thank you. I'm going to do it. |
| 02:14:12.97 | Jonathan Leone | you |
| 02:14:13.14 | Ray Gerges | I would. |
| 02:14:16.61 | Herb Weiner | But let's find out. If not, Robin, then I'll be glad to meet with you and see what I can help you on, on a van. |
| 02:14:26.26 | Robin Sweeney | Now in the short... |
| 02:14:27.40 | Mary Wagner | Oh, yeah. |
| 02:14:30.62 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:14:30.99 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, Mr. Mayor, a question was asked if the city has the ability to donate it, and the answer is yes, if you find it's in the public interest to donate to an entity that's providing services to residents of Sausalito and the county of Marin, that it wouldn't be a gift of public funds to the extent that you could get any value from the auction for the van. You would just, you know, if the council believes there's a public interest in doing it, believe it's supported by the nature of the organization, then you can make that kind of donation. |
| 02:14:41.03 | Herb Weiner | You bet. |
| 02:15:00.65 | Jonathan Leone | Eric, can I ask a question? I don't know, Robin, if you can answer it, or ma'am, if you could answer it. How many times a week do you use the van? |
| 02:15:01.99 | Jonathan Leone | I don't know. |
| 02:15:07.00 | Robin Sweeney | you Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Sunday. |
| 02:15:15.57 | Jonathan Leone | Okay, so it's a lot. It's a lot. Okay, so you couldn't really use the other van, the other van that you had. |
| 02:15:16.30 | Robin Sweeney | It's a lot. It's five days a week. Friday night, the Baptist Church here on Filbert Street does a dinner, so that's why we don't do Friday. |
| 02:15:26.49 | Jonathan Leone | Right. I mean, we have the senior van, but that sounds like this is a high intensity of use, so it'd be hard to share it. Okay. |
| 02:15:34.84 | Herb Weiner | Okay. |
| 02:15:35.38 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 02:15:35.40 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:15:35.55 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 02:15:36.67 | Herb Weiner | . All right, so there's a move to Jonathan. Would you find out if it's gone to the cruncher or not? |
| 02:15:41.10 | Jonathan Leone | and, uh, |
| 02:15:45.29 | Jonathan Leone | All you have to do is remove this item. It's going to take no action on this item and the staff can |
| 02:15:49.74 | Herb Weiner | Okay, so be it. |
| 02:15:50.44 | Jonathan Leone | So be it. Have fun. OK. They're going to have to come back with some things as we donate it anyway. All right. |
| 02:15:52.04 | Michael Rex | Yeah. I'm not. |
| 02:15:55.47 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. Thank you. |
| 02:15:55.97 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:15:56.17 | Herb Weiner | Okay Robin. |
| 02:15:57.22 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you very much. |
| 02:15:58.64 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. |
| 02:15:58.86 | Herb Weiner | welcome. |
| 02:16:01.15 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. Let's move along now to... You have to continue this item to a date on... I make a motion to continue this item to a date uncertain. Okay. Second. |
| 02:16:11.06 | Herb Weiner | Yes, sir. |
| 02:16:11.61 | Jonathan Leone | I'm fine. |
| 02:16:13.03 | Herb Weiner | favor. |
| 02:16:13.51 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:16:13.69 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:16:13.77 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:16:13.82 | Herb Weiner | Bye. |
| 02:16:13.94 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:16:13.98 | Michael Rex | Yeah. |
| 02:16:14.05 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:16:14.06 | Michael Rex | Bye. |
| 02:16:14.38 | Jonathan Leone | you Thank you. |
| 02:16:14.64 | Michael Rex | Okay. |
| 02:16:16.07 | Herb Weiner | Okay. Next item that we have the status update of the, uh, Sausalito yacht harbor and Jonathan Goldman. |
| 02:16:23.78 | Jonathon Goldman | THANK YOU. |
| 02:16:23.93 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:16:23.97 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. Thank you again, Mr. Mayor. The status update is in your packet, and I'm not going to read the entire thing. But the reason it's a business item on this evening's agenda is to draw your attention to the fact that essentially since our last meeting, with some of the costs associated with either potential change orders that were identified at that time or and the costs associated with mitigating the presence of 14,000 gallons of bunker fuel in underground storage or in underground tanks, we have now more than accounted for the contingency funds remaining. Um, we are not in a position this evening to ask you for a supplemental appropriation, but I am certainly prepared to discuss the specifics of both those potential change orders that have turned into actual change orders, the actual costs associated with the characterization and remediation of the presence of oil. We are also in the process of working with the three utility companies that we have made an allowance for their costs in this project, PG&E, AT&T, and Marin Municipal Water District trying to finalize their costs so that if there are funds that have been kind of encumbered in the form of an allowance that could be transferred to other places in the project, we have that opportunity. I'm spacing a little bit. Oh, the engineering services and construction management services during construction. I've asked for budget status updates from, it's actually three firms, to make sure that either they're going to be on budget or in the best of all worlds that they say we're going to, we estimate that we're going to be able to complete the project for less than the budget was allocated. Since this staff report was written, well, let me take a small step backward. In your staff report, page 3 of item 6C, I have bolded the changes or the most recent change orders, $84,713 for partial changes in the fire protection plans. As you may recall from the last time you had a status report, we were looking at, I don't remember the number exactly, but on the order of $120,000 for that item by virtue of some sharpened pencils and some changes in materials and changes in methods of construction. that overall dollar amount has been reduced. It's listed as partial because we are acquiring some of the parts directly rather than paying the markup through the contractor so until those details are all finalized it's a partial change in addition, we have almost $26,000 invoice for labor, equipment, and materials that Reyes Construction incurred in responding to finding fuel oil in the tanks. That invoice is through September 27th, depending upon what the outcome of testing of some of the soils that were considered clean overburdened but can't be reused on the site is, we may have additional soil handling charges. So I wanted to make it clear it was only through that date. And then we do have a progress invoice from NRC Environmental through September 23rd, $57,951. Their final charges, their estimate for everything based on assumptions about where the materials can go was $100,000 round numbers. We have already sent the 14,000 gallons of fuel to recycling. It's been received by the recycler, so those costs are known. The questions at this point have to do with the oily soil that is still stored in rollout bins. We finally got the analytical results for those samples earlier today. And then in addition, I alluded the to soils that we considered clean or not visibly affected that there may still be some disposition costs with. |
| 02:20:13.81 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 02:21:18.71 | Jonathon Goldman | Um, I also have the, we retained AEW Environmental, who was the environmental consultant that assisted us, as you may recall, with the fuel tanks at the fire station. I have their proposal in hand, and as I recall, it's, total's approximately $18,000, about half of which is services they've already provided, monitoring the excavation, monitoring the remediation, collecting the samples, managing the analytical through the laboratories, and then the second half of those, of that budget is expected for buttoning up a closure report that will allow the regulatory agencies to close their file on the matter once that's all resolved. There was something else, but... I can't think of it. In any event, I also listed some of the other items that are in the form of pending change orders at the moment. And I'm happy to try and answer any questions you have at this time. |
| 02:22:30.04 | Herb Weiner | Any questions from the Council? |
| 02:22:32.74 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:22:32.75 | Jonathan Leone | Yes. |
| 02:22:33.55 | Herb Weiner | you Go ahead, Jonathan. |
| 02:22:34.44 | Jonathan Leone | Jonathan. Go ahead. |
| 02:22:36.70 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:22:36.74 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:22:36.77 | Herb Weiner | Well, you put your hand up first. I'll go ahead, John. |
| 02:22:38.96 | Jonathan Leone | Where was it? On whose property were these tanks found? Thank you. |
| 02:22:46.41 | Jonathon Goldman | At the risk of sounding evasive, |
| 02:22:51.03 | Jonathan Leone | It's not clear. Okay, so given that there is, so do you know? Why are we paying for this if it's not on our property? And since this whole strip of land was created by the current owner... Because it's not clear. And the resolution of this issue... So no one photographed it in place when they were found, before they were removed? So that we know where they were? It's been photographed |
| 02:23:15.09 | Jonathon Goldman | for. extensively. |
| 02:23:17.83 | Jonathan Leone | So, |
| 02:23:17.98 | Jonathon Goldman | I'm sorry. I would like to go back and finish answering the first question, though. |
| 02:23:22.37 | Jonathan Leone | Oh, okay. If you don't mind. Yeah, yeah. |
| 02:23:23.80 | Jonathon Goldman | if you don't mind. The reason that we are processing these invoices and managing this on a 50-50 cost basis at this point is that the consequences for delaying our overall project are a significant financial risk. And I think that in the long run, |
| 02:23:33.23 | Stephan Bühn | Yeah. |
| 02:23:47.58 | Jonathon Goldman | These are very legitimate questions to ask and for staff and our partners in the project to evaluate down the line. And in the short term, in my judgment, it's imperative that this issue got resolved and that that part of the project site got turned back over to Reyes Construction as quickly as possible. |
| 02:24:05.50 | Jonathan Leone | as quickly as possible. Well, it's one thing to just clean up the problem. It's another thing, who pays for what? Those are two separate questions. That's correct. Right? So it doesn't matter unless you, the city has agreed right now that it would pay 50% of the total cost at the end of the day, rather than just as part of the remediation process. But it's, you know, you're looking at, you know, $100,000, as you said, and your project is now over budget. So, so I, given that, A, the pro-, the, whosever property this is, it's being disputed, B, this property was created by the current landowner. So no one else snuck these tanks in. and certainly not the city. why should the taxpayer be on the hook for the cost of remediating tanks that were installed, obviously by these folks? I don't... Regardless of where the property lies. |
| 02:25:08.97 | Jonathon Goldman | I don't, regardless of where the property line is. I'm suggesting that the property owner, that the city or the taxpayer should be on the hook for anything. What I'm suggesting is that under the circumstances, The provider of services, NRC Environmental, Reyes Construction, AEW, they are entitled to be compensated for their emergency response. And the most expeditious way to do that, rather than having a discussion about who is ultimately legally liable or whatever, is to process those payments as part of this project so that this project can be completed as quickly as possible. |
| 02:25:47.05 | Mary Wagner | One suggestion that the council might wish to consider is direct staff to to preserve that right to Indicate that the fact that it's been processed this way doesn't Prejudice either parties ability to determine if there's a if one party solely responsible for the for the waste And if it should be handled in a different manner |
| 02:26:10.85 | Jonathan Leone | But is the way this is worded that you're this is a change order and we're accepting a change order. |
| 02:26:18.22 | Mary Wagner | And what I'm suggesting is we can document it at the direction of Council to |
| 02:26:18.25 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. |
| 02:26:23.64 | Mary Wagner | the other party that it was processed this way in order to keep the project moving forward and that we are neither accepting responsibility for the waste that that issue is still open. |
| 02:26:36.78 | Jonathan Leone | but that leaves it open for argument later. My point is, my point would be that it may be more prudent to not accept these two change orders. You've already paid, in effect. You can do that. So, but the council does not accept it, and then you have to go back and hammer this out. I mean, you know, today with the landowner. |
| 02:26:39.01 | Mary Wagner | My point is... |
| 02:26:50.28 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:27:01.25 | Jonathan Leone | because otherwise... |
| 02:27:02.30 | Mary Wagner | I think it's- |
| 02:27:02.72 | Jonathan Leone | You've lost any leverage that you would have had. And given the negotiations with these folks, they're not going to pay this unless you hold them to a fire now. |
| 02:27:11.97 | Mary Wagner | I think it's a city, quote unquote, city public works project. So I concur with the public works director that the steps that staff took to mitigate the problem and to contain any issue. is consistent with how we should have acted. How we deal with who's responsible for hazardous waste is dealt with under federal Law. and we can document to say that by taking this action we're only you know, paying our contractors and we're not assuming or taking responsibility for the waste, and it might be that we look to them to to reimburse the city for that, but I don't know that we have the information tonight to answer that question for you. But what I'm trying to suggest is a method that you preserve that right. |
| 02:28:01.72 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah, but that's a legal right versus a negotiated settlement. So, I mean, you always have that right, right, regardless of whatever you do now. But to accept this and the money's already out the door, you're going to have to claw it back through an expensive process if you wait to do it through a legal process. If you just accept the change order, |
| 02:28:01.93 | Mary Wagner | That's... |
| 02:28:21.02 | Jonathan Leone | and I'm going to have to sue the Maddens to get this money back. your legal fees are going to eat up most of it. It's not, you know, there's no way, shape, or form, unless you can tell me right now that the city installed these tanks, that the city is responsible for putting diesel fuel tanks on this piece of property, so largely that we don't own. So, or the dispute we own any of, any of these parcels. So, it's... |
| 02:28:52.46 | Mary Wagner | The council's not being asked to take any action tonight. I don't believe. |
| 02:28:55.33 | Jonathan Leone | I don't believe. |
| 02:28:56.24 | Mary Wagner | I mean, you're receiving the report and the information that this is coming down the pipeline based upon the information We're hearing from you tonight. We can raise those issues. |
| 02:29:05.84 | Jonathan Leone | He's got, you don't have any action, but you've already included it in the budget. So if we accept this report, we've accepted the budget overrun of, at this point, $82,000. |
| 02:29:19.90 | Mary Wagner | You don't accept that you're not authorizing payment on the the the change orders until they're approved. And this is, I believe, and this is just being brought to you as an informational item tonight. |
| 02:29:34.83 | Jonathan Leone | Well, then it should be removed from the budget. It has no purpose in there. It's not part of the original scope, and it's not part of the budget. And I'm not saying, this is anything personal. You're solving a problem with a construction project. But as far as who pays for what, and making the appearance that it's okay, I think we gotta be very careful here Um, and not cleaning up somebody else's mess on the average Joe's Fine. |
| 02:30:02.34 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:30:02.35 | Herb Weiner | Um. That's the only comment that I'd like to have. make on that is that we actually, in my opinion, were lucky that this construction company worked the way they did because they were able to penetrate the top of the tank. If they, unknowing to them what was going on there, they really had ruptured that tank and that product leaked out, I think you would probably, looking at a bill that would be easily twice as much, maybe three times as much. But because they were able to grab it right at the top when that unit went in and punctured that top of the tank, and then finding out that there was a second tank I think it might look like a lot of money, but in comparison to if they just went in and butchered it, I think we would have been looking at a much, much more costly event. |
| 02:31:01.75 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor, may I comment? Yes. Actually, I have a question for Jonathan Goldman. Mr. Goldman, so you mentioned that, per Councilmember Leon's question about which property this was found on, and you said it was in dispute, is that correct? |
| 02:31:06.50 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. |
| 02:31:23.67 | Herb Weiner | Right. |
| 02:31:24.99 | Linda Pfeifer | Um, it would... Can you elaborate a little bit more? Because isn't it really clear with respect to the lines of where the city? It's not? OK. All right. I just wanted to go there just to get clarity on that. The lines are clear. |
| 02:31:35.98 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:31:36.21 | Andrew Davidson | . |
| 02:31:36.25 | Herb Weiner | Okay. you |
| 02:31:36.97 | Stephan Bühn | It's a great day. |
| 02:31:37.16 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 02:31:37.26 | Andrew Davidson | . |
| 02:31:37.41 | Stephan Bühn | THE FAMILY. Thank you. |
| 02:31:38.27 | Jonathon Goldman | All right. |
| 02:31:39.08 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:31:39.10 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. The lines are clear. The deeds are. Okay, thank you. There's a lawsuit. |
| 02:31:45.09 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:31:45.11 | Linda Pfeifer | Okay. |
| 02:31:45.70 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. There's a lawsuit that's settled. |
| 02:31:47.54 | Linda Pfeifer | Okay, gotcha. |
| 02:31:48.38 | Mike Kelly | just just for clarity there's a lawsuit back in the help me 72 68 I don't remember the exact date there's a lawsuit which which everybody agreed not to agree yeah I remember that and so it's in dispute as to whether we own to this line or to that line whether it's a road or not road and so on and we all agreed not to to mitigate that issue yet. So I think that's the dispute. We had lots on the police and fire buildings. We had lots and lots of disputes about change orders and whether it was our fault or our fault and all that. |
| 02:31:55.99 | Mary Wagner | I don't remember the exact date. |
| 02:31:57.71 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:31:57.97 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 02:32:01.09 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, I remember that. |
| 02:32:02.18 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 02:32:08.21 | Stephan Bühn | So, |
| 02:32:08.41 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 02:32:08.48 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 02:32:12.53 | Herb Weiner | We're not issued yet. . |
| 02:32:26.42 | Mike Kelly | We managed to muddle through all that by not admitting any liability one way or the other until such time as we could sit down and argue about it, which we did and ended up getting $200,000 or $300,000 reduced off that bill. |
| 02:32:39.83 | Jonathan Leone | But that was from the cleanup call. |
| 02:32:40.96 | Jonathan Leone | not to |
| 02:32:41.74 | Mike Kelly | No, I know, through the whole project. Yeah, but then for those tanks. Point of order. Point of order. But I just think that we've got to get it fixed, that's for sure, and get the project going. |
| 02:32:41.81 | Jonathan Leone | Oh, I know. Yeah, but then for those tanks, that was your up to. |
| 02:32:45.97 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:32:46.02 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 02:32:46.30 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 02:32:46.31 | Herb Weiner | but |
| 02:32:46.58 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:32:53.15 | Herb Weiner | Hi. Mr. Mayor. Council member Ford. |
| 02:32:53.82 | Carolyn Ford | Go. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I think what we need to do, I believe what the Public Works Director did was the right thing to do. And I think that at this point, given how generous the Madden family has been with this project that we need to go back to them and and discuss it and See where we come out on this before we take any Sort of legal action and so that would be my recommendation |
| 02:33:26.03 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:33:26.31 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor, quick question. So Mary, actually per Councilman Verlione's comment about if we accept this report, we accept the budget, which is part of the report. |
| 02:33:27.22 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 02:33:39.72 | Linda Pfeifer | Would you make any recommendations with regards to, you know, any with regards to how we accept this report, just to make sure that we're not |
| 02:33:52.70 | Mary Wagner | Well, at the risk of upsetting the public works director, I don't know that you need |
| 02:33:53.61 | Linda Pfeifer | that. |
| 02:33:56.61 | Mary Wagner | any I mean, you've received staff's report, you have the information. If you, and the record's gonna reflect the discussion and the fact that the Council doesn't want to prejudice any positions that it has and that by accepting this document, you're not accepting liability for the incident. |
| 02:34:14.97 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:34:14.99 | Jonathan Leone | That would be my suggestion. |
| 02:34:15.97 | Linda Pfeifer | See you. |
| 02:34:15.99 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:34:16.66 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:34:16.71 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:34:16.88 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you, Mary. Okay. |
| 02:34:17.03 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:34:17.12 | Jonathan Leone | So I mean, take public comment, but let me see if there's any public comment, because it's not a question. |
| 02:34:18.21 | Herb Weiner | Take care. |
| 02:34:26.11 | Herb Weiner | All right, is there any, at this time, do you have any public comment on this item? Okay, let's bring it back. |
| 02:34:32.14 | Jonathan Leone | So my suggestion is with the similar to the prior item, you just take no action on it and just continue it to a date uncertain and had direct staff to come back with some information indicating enlightening us on this issue of where this i mean you know if it was found in a vessel and the vessel was put there by the maddens to create fill then there's no way that you can make the case that it's also the resident has to pay for this so and particularly if they're happy to release their claim on the on the property i'll pay for it to remediate this and say that we own that the city owns this property that we claim that that they claim we don't own but otherwise i think we can't you know people have conflicts of interest here and i think this needs to be done you know straight up and without any um favoritism so i think we should just take no action and not accept this report, continue it to a date uncertain, and direct staff to come back with some more information on this item. |
| 02:35:11.98 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:35:44.95 | Herb Weiner | Jonathan, does this interfere with the progress Thank you. If this action is taken, or not taken? No. I'm not taken. |
| 02:35:53.94 | Jonathan Leone | taken. No. taken. Okay. |
| 02:35:56.41 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:35:57.66 | Herb Weiner | All right. |
| 02:35:57.67 | Jonathan Leone | All right. |
| 02:35:58.05 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:35:58.10 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:35:58.21 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. |
| 02:35:58.87 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. All right. |
| 02:35:59.95 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:36:00.00 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:36:00.09 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:36:00.10 | Herb Weiner | All right. Okay. |
| 02:36:00.86 | Jonathan Leone | So you need a second and a vote on that. |
| 02:36:01.24 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:36:01.50 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:36:01.52 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:36:06.48 | Herb Weiner | Second. |
| 02:36:06.82 | Mary Wagner | The other, the other, there's a motion on the floor, Mr. Mayor. The only other alternative, if you wish to discuss it, is that you just take this item as information only. And that we understand that the council wants us to come back. And that's what we'll do. So we'll take it. There's a motion on the floor, so I'm not going to, I'm just putting that. |
| 02:36:07.50 | Jonathan Leone | The other. |
| 02:36:08.20 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 02:36:10.31 | Jonathan Leone | All right, okay. |
| 02:36:11.11 | Michael Rex | . |
| 02:36:18.65 | Herb Weiner | And that we understand that the council wants us to come back. Do you want to withdraw that and have any information only? |
| 02:36:25.53 | Mary Wagner | with that. |
| 02:36:26.02 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah. What do you want to do? I don't want it to be part of the record because it's phrased in a way that could be used by a smart attorney as acceptance. in the way the report is written and the way the budget is, even though that's not what the city engineer had or the city public works director had in mind. So I would rather just continue it with no action, a direct staff to come back with further information. Great. All right. OK. |
| 02:36:49.41 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:36:49.45 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:36:49.65 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 02:36:50.00 | Herb Weiner | All right, okay. Second, all in favor? Aye. Okay. All right, thank you, Jonathan. |
| 02:36:53.23 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:36:53.26 | Michael Rex | Bye. Bye. |
| 02:36:54.05 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:36:58.17 | Herb Weiner | Okay, next item is... status update on vacancies on various boards and commissions. Debbie. What is this? |
| 02:37:15.05 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:37:15.06 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:37:17.68 | Debbie | You can add a minor, it fits. This is the information that's being brought to you at the request of counsel to have an update. on the status and so I have listed out all of the boards and commissions |
| 02:37:28.99 | Herb Weiner | listed out. |
| 02:37:32.55 | Debbie | that have current vacancies. |
| 02:37:34.98 | Herb Weiner | Okay. |
| 02:37:36.07 | Debbie | the number, oh, I did not update it. We're dealing with the one that's in the package. Um... |
| 02:37:42.60 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. All right. Thank you. That's what I do. |
| 02:37:45.35 | Debbie | I'm sorry, I emailed it. Yeah. I'll give it to you. Oh, what time? I'll share. Yeah. |
| 02:37:45.77 | Mike Kelly | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 02:37:45.83 | Herb Weiner | All right. |
| 02:37:49.30 | Mike Kelly | Oh, what time? I don't have one either. You got two? |
| 02:37:53.88 | Debbie | Thank you. |
| 02:37:55.16 | Linda Pfeifer | I printed it. Thank you. |
| 02:37:57.54 | Debbie | you |
| 02:37:57.59 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:37:57.71 | Debbie | Thank you. |
| 02:37:57.98 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:38:01.39 | Michael Rex | Okay. Thank you. |
| 02:38:02.36 | Debbie | I apologize. I emailed that out to you, and it was printed in the regular packet. We're sharing. |
| 02:38:08.98 | Carolyn Ford | you Thank you. |
| 02:38:09.16 | Debbie | I'm sorry. |
| 02:38:09.52 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 02:38:09.91 | Debbie | THE |
| 02:38:10.28 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 02:38:10.30 | Debbie | Thank you. |
| 02:38:10.33 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 02:38:10.41 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 02:38:10.46 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 02:38:10.51 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. you You guys have one this year? I'm sure. I have one. We have enough. But you guys have enough. |
| 02:38:12.45 | Herb Weiner | I'm sorry. |
| 02:38:12.98 | Herb Weiner | I have one. |
| 02:38:13.85 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:38:13.89 | Jonathan Leone | I'm not sure. |
| 02:38:16.64 | Beth Muth | Oh, OK, great. |
| 02:38:18.97 | Debbie | . |
| 02:38:19.22 | Beth Muth | Bye. |
| 02:38:19.24 | Debbie | Oh, no. We can share. We'll share. |
| 02:38:19.39 | Jonathan Leone | Oh, no. We can share. |
| 02:38:21.97 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. you |
| 02:38:24.10 | Debbie | Sure. |
| 02:38:24.20 | Herb Weiner | Sure. Thank you. |
| 02:38:24.40 | Debbie | Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Like I say, as I indicated, I was going to update this just to let you know who might, who of the applicants were still interested in the position. And we were unable to do that. The only correction that I will make on this is that the Historic Landmarks Board, there are three positions that you will need to discuss. Going down the list, Arts Commission, you have five positions and a handful of applicants. The Board of Library Trustees, you have two positions, two incumbents, both of which you want to continue on, no applicants. Citizens Advisory Review Board, you have three positions, two of which are termed out of the incumbents. One incumbent does want to continue. And you have three other applicants. You have previously interviewed those three. Two other applications were recently taken out. They have not been returned to my office as yet. The disaster committee, you have two positions. |
| 02:39:27.78 | Stephan Bühn | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 02:39:32.16 | Debbie | Again, I made a mistake there. You actually have three positions. You have two positions. that expired in May, and then there was one position that you actually never filled. Um, historic landmarks board you have one incumbent that has turned out The key with Historic Landmarks Board is you really will need to, as you interview, you're going to have to re-interview all of these people because your requirements for this board have changed since you became a certified... Parks and Recreation Commission, you have one incumbent, zero applicants, and your Incumbent is anxious to continue on. Planning Commission, you have three positions open. All three have answered that they would be glad to consider. So I think that's a good question. to applicants that you've not interviewed. Trees and views. You have one position, one applicant anxious to continue on, and two other applicants who have not been interviewed. And then I added on the back side the miscellaneous ones. You have hospitality. There were two restaurant representative positions that were never officially appointed, even though there was all kinds of outreach for that. There were only two applicants who came in, and that was Jeff Shiraj and Yoshi Tobey. Both have been serving on that board, although they have not been officially appointed And then I gave you the status update on who's applied for the pedestrian and bicycle advisory. In the meantime, Since all of this, Council Member Pfeiffer's been out beaten the old pavement, and she has two more interested parties for the Arts Commission, and I did, in fact, get the applications out to them. Thank you. |
| 02:41:42.02 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 02:41:42.33 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:41:42.72 | Debbie | So this is an update for you. Like I say, you do have two situations where you have two boards with no applicants. |
| 02:41:42.94 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 02:41:43.04 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:41:52.72 | Mike Kelly | There's two of those here. |
| 02:41:53.65 | Debbie | that was Parks and Rec. |
| 02:41:57.74 | Jonathan Leone | and libraries. |
| 02:41:58.58 | Debbie | Board of Library Trustees. |
| 02:42:00.15 | Jonathan Leone | Nobody abides for the board of lawyers. |
| 02:42:02.33 | Debbie | No, nobody's applied for that. We've interviewed a lot. I mean, we've advertised a lot for that. |
| 02:42:08.05 | Herb Weiner | I guess it went to vain. Anyway. |
| 02:42:12.50 | Jonathan Leone | Oh, yeah. |
| 02:42:12.94 | Herb Weiner | All right, so at this time here on the Board of Library Trustees, we have two names of people that want to be reappointed, and I recommend |
| 02:42:20.36 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:42:20.38 | Jonathan Leone | It's not on the agenda. It's just not on the agenda. Oh, we can't? Nothing. Okay. |
| 02:42:21.93 | Herb Weiner | Oh, we can't? Nothing. Okay. All right. Okay. So we'll move that to the next meeting. |
| 02:42:28.58 | Jonathan Leone | The Pressure on the Pressure on Thank you. |
| 02:42:33.78 | Herb Weiner | All right. Okay. Is there any public comment on this item? Oh, no. |
| 02:42:33.80 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:42:42.94 | Carolyn Revell | Ah. Mayor Wiener and members of the City Council, my name is Carolyn Kiernot and I'm just here tonight to comment, I had a great conversation this afternoon with Debbie talking about how these appointments are made and the applicants that have applied so far and the changes that are a result of our certified local government status and just stressing the fact that there are new requirements And I think that a conversation would be helpful for Heidi Burns to have maybe with the State Office of Historic Preservation to get their guidance on this, if in fact we're not able to find three qualified candidates to fill the position the positions that are available and I know you've talked about it at recent council meetings. I've watched some of the videos at home. But I would like just to ask one more time, since I'm here in person tonight, what would happen if we were able to, if Vicki Nichols is termed off and if we can't find three candidates to replace that position? Is there any legal latitude to keep her on board? Or would she have to stay off the board for a year? |
| 02:43:53.89 | Jonathan Leone | Who's the third, by the way? You said there's three positions. Oh, that's right. He moved. |
| 02:43:58.09 | Jonathan Leone | you Thank you. Yeah. Sorry. |
| 02:44:07.61 | Mary Wagner | Do you want me to answer that? Yes, please. I guess it's a question for Mary. |
| 02:44:08.06 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:44:08.08 | Carolyn Revell | I guess this is a question for Mary. |
| 02:44:10.37 | Mary Wagner | So If a member of a border commission has termed out and desires to stay on that border commission and there are no other applicants for the position, the council can reappoint that person to that position. |
| 02:44:25.56 | Herb Weiner | Okay. |
| 02:44:26.64 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:44:26.66 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:44:26.76 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:44:26.78 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:44:26.79 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:44:26.83 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:44:26.88 | Jonathan Leone | to. |
| 02:44:26.96 | Debbie | And just to let you know, you do have a board that you have the same exact situation. You have a person who turned out. |
| 02:44:26.98 | Mary Wagner | and just |
| 02:44:34.44 | Debbie | A long time ago. Which board is that? Underground. to crack on. |
| 02:44:38.81 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:44:38.84 | Jonathan Leone | I thought he'd be like, |
| 02:44:39.94 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:44:40.53 | Debbie | No, I did not put it on the list. |
| 02:44:40.55 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:44:40.56 | Jonathan Leone | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 02:44:40.72 | Herb Weiner | It's underground. It's underground. |
| 02:44:43.70 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:44:43.74 | Jonathan Leone | I don't think there's a meaning of it. |
| 02:44:46.28 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:44:46.30 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:44:46.37 | Herb Weiner | Well |
| 02:44:46.98 | Jonathan Leone | at will when they have them. Is it, may I ask the city attorney question? Is it if you have applicants or because in this case we need qualified applicants as well to meet the state standards? |
| 02:44:58.48 | Mary Wagner | Can I have one minute to go and grab the code section? I can tell you exactly what it says. |
| 02:45:07.43 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 02:45:07.66 | Carolyn Revell | Can I ask another question in the meantime? Can I ask another question in the meantime while she's getting the vote? Sure. I understand that the interviews will be open to the public, and I just want to confirm that, because I would love to join them and maybe listen and assist in interviewing if that's possible. |
| 02:45:07.70 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:45:07.80 | Herb Weiner | . |
| 02:45:07.85 | Mary Wagner | I'm just gonna question |
| 02:45:09.08 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:45:09.11 | Mary Wagner | and then |
| 02:45:09.44 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:45:10.60 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:45:11.29 | Herb Weiner | I think I'm going to do |
| 02:45:13.45 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:45:13.47 | Herb Weiner | Sure. |
| 02:45:23.46 | Herb Weiner | Yes. |
| 02:45:23.75 | Mike Kelly | and assistance. |
| 02:45:24.42 | Herb Weiner | to the |
| 02:45:24.47 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:45:24.52 | Herb Weiner | THE FAMILY. |
| 02:45:25.18 | Mike Kelly | possible. |
| 02:45:25.97 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 02:45:26.04 | Mike Kelly | Excellent. And those will have to be longer than 10 minutes. but to determine that. |
| 02:45:33.55 | Jonathan Leone | THROUGH. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You've got to have half-hour credentials to meet that |
| 02:45:36.33 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. |
| 02:45:44.03 | Debbie | Excuse me. |
| 02:45:44.23 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 02:45:44.54 | Robin Sweeney | you |
| 02:45:44.69 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 02:45:44.70 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:45:44.77 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 02:45:46.73 | Debbie | Were you listing that as a directions staff? |
| 02:45:50.39 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:45:50.41 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:45:50.53 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:45:50.63 | Debbie | Is that how long to interview for that? That's specific to the historic landmark? Yes. Perfect. Thank you. |
| 02:45:50.65 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:45:53.68 | Herb Weiner | to the historic landmarks. |
| 02:45:55.54 | Robin Sweeney | Thank you. |
| 02:45:58.19 | Jonathan Leone | It's okay with everything. |
| 02:45:59.52 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:46:03.74 | Mary Wagner | So Mr. Mayor, the section that we're talking about is 2.58090 of the Unicode and what it |
| 02:46:08.14 | Herb Weiner | Time's up, Mary. Thank you. Sorry. |
| 02:46:21.16 | Mary Wagner | is that no one shall be reappointed to a board or commission or committee after they have served than six consecutive years on that board. Let me back up. No one can be reappointed and cannot serve more than six consecutive years on a board committee or commission. They can't be reappointed after the passage of that time unless two years have intervened in between their appointments. However, if... Somebody may be reappointed. after the passage of less than two years if there are no other applicants for the position. |
| 02:46:55.82 | Jonathan Leone | Mm. Okay. |
| 02:46:57.86 | Michael Rex | Thank you. I guess. |
| 02:46:59.55 | Jonathan Leone | So is it just the policy of the city has been, if no other members are appointed, that a member can continue to serve until someone is appointed? Is that correct? |
| 02:47:10.82 | Mary Wagner | What's happened over the length of time, we talked about this briefly at the last council meeting, It's the city's practice has been that if someone's term is up after six years, they're not immediately asked to step down from that position. They're actually asked to remain in position if they're willing until someone is found to fill their vacancy. And if you go out, you know, the next step there would be, If they're willing to remain and you've gone out and advertised and you don't have any applicants, that the council could then determine that they could reappoint that person. |
| 02:47:45.53 | Jonathan Leone | Right, and the question I have is, and it's not answered in this ordinance, is given that now Hopefully you can find some qualified candidates for the HLB, but they need specific credentials essentially and training to be able to meet the certified global government threshold, a certain number of them, I'm not mistaking you, a certain number of folks. I don't know if it's all or some, I think it's a subset of number. So it's not just you have human beings who are applying, you have to have human beings that are qualified. So that's going to be harder to find, but we need to beat the bushes to find those. |
| 02:48:27.50 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor, with respect to the HLB, do we have any information on the applicants that have applied that they meet this threshold? Thank you. because it's- |
| 02:48:42.47 | Debbie | No, these are old applications. These are 2010 applications. So we would need to send something out with some kind of a supplemental attachment to find out the specific qualifications. |
| 02:48:47.39 | Linda Pfeifer | Oh. |
| 02:48:51.59 | Linda Pfeifer | Yeah. So it's not that they don't qualify, it's just that we don't know. |
| 02:48:58.18 | Debbie | Thank you. |
| 02:48:58.72 | Linda Pfeifer | That is correct. |
| 02:48:58.97 | Herb Weiner | That's correct. Thank you. |
| 02:49:00.08 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. |
| 02:49:00.17 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:49:03.31 | Herb Weiner | Okay. Great, thank you. |
| 02:49:03.83 | Herb Weiner | Great, thank you. |
| 02:49:06.50 | Herb Weiner | All right. |
| 02:49:06.65 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:49:06.68 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. |
| 02:49:06.75 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:49:06.80 | Carolyn Ford | Thank you. Mr. Mayor? Yes? I would like to see us move forward with our committees. |
| 02:49:09.42 | Herb Weiner | Yes. |
| 02:49:18.17 | Carolyn Ford | quickly actually, some of these people have been, have volunteered, have been on our list for a while. Um, And I say that we could go ahead and appoint the people to the library, the people who are serving and still want to continue serving, and also to Parks and Rec. And so I would suggest we put that on our next council meeting. It will be. And then we start interviewing the people for the other committees, and maybe we need to |
| 02:49:36.91 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:49:43.17 | Herb Weiner | Council Meagher. |
| 02:49:44.04 | Herb Weiner | TODAY. |
| 02:49:44.13 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:49:44.28 | Herb Weiner | It will be. |
| 02:49:47.79 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 02:49:47.89 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:49:54.94 | Carolyn Ford | a lot separate time other than just before our closed session to do so, since we have so many positions to fill. |
| 02:50:05.00 | Linda Pfeifer | Mm-hmm. |
| 02:50:05.86 | Carolyn Ford | you Thank you. |
| 02:50:06.13 | Linda Pfeifer | Thank you. And Mr. Mayor, if I may. Yeah, I would also further comment that I know I had raised this last spring when I felt we had, and I see from this list that we did have, as of May at least, we had five candidates for the Arts Commission that we also put the interviews for the Arts Commission at the top of the list with regards to moving that along. Debbie mentioned I was pounding the pavement to get more applicants, but I actually had pounded the pavement earlier, too, and I have one applicant here who I recruited, and she applied back in January. So I really hope that we will put the Arts Commission at the top of the list. |
| 02:50:55.34 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 02:50:56.44 | Herb Weiner | All right. Any other comments? Okay. All right, with that, let's move on to the next item. |
| 02:51:05.51 | Jonathan Leone | So it asks for direction to staff. Sorry, before you move on. So I would just, my. |
| 02:51:09.06 | Herb Weiner | Allah. |
| 02:51:13.41 | Jonathan Leone | The proposal would be that you just direct you and Debbie, the mayor and Debbie, to work together to prioritize these in the appropriate order and start scheduling them as you see fit. Okay. Thank you. |
| 02:51:17.18 | Stephan Bühn | and then, |
| 02:51:17.24 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 02:51:26.31 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:51:27.20 | Thomas Neumeier | Good. |
| 02:51:27.72 | Jonathan Leone | That's fine. |
| 02:51:27.89 | Thomas Neumeier | Thank you. |
| 02:51:28.03 | Herb Weiner | That's fine, but yeah, we got to get going on it, so let's do it. |
| 02:51:30.58 | Linda Pfeifer | And Mr. Mayor, one last comment? Thank you. I want to echo what Council Member Ford just said with regards to having a special meeting. I know we've done that before in the past to just get these commissions and committees filled, and I would recommend it now. I think it's definitely worth it, and I think we'd see a lot of benefit to our community to get these filled as fast as possible. Thank you. |
| 02:51:32.70 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 02:51:54.25 | Herb Weiner | Okay, thank you. All right, with that, the next item, which will be a discussion of the City Council, City Manager, City Attorney, Operating Protocols, and Rosenberg Rules. |
| 02:52:24.93 | Mary Wagner | Thank you, Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council. In the spring of 2010, so a little over a year ago, the City Council had a series of meetings, the first of which was a facilitated discussion. on its operating procedures and protocols, and that resulted in the adoption of, oh sorry, this is so hard to read. You actually have a hard copy on the dais in front of you. I didn't realize that the white would be so difficult to read. I apologize. There's also, the public also has copies of the hard copy, so I suggest it's going to be easier to follow that than to look at this. |
| 02:52:40.98 | Stephan Bühn | IT'S ON THE |
| 02:52:53.89 | Herb Weiner | Mm-hmm. |
| 02:53:06.37 | Herb Weiner | So, both will be able to keep |
| 02:53:07.64 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:53:07.74 | Herb Weiner | I know, that's true. |
| 02:53:08.15 | Vicki Nichols | I know that's true. |
| 02:53:10.17 | Mary Wagner | I used bigger print than your administrative services director does, so hopefully they're more readable without magnifying glass. So in any event, after the Thank you. As a result of that process that you undertook in May and June of 2010, The Council adopted operating protocols, and as part of those protocols, decided to utilize Rosenberg's Rules of Order Simple Parliamentary Procedures for the 21st Century as it's meeting rules. and it's actually the version that's published by the League of California Cities. That's included in your packet tonight, too. I've taken this opportunity to go through the rules of order and the principles that are laid out therein, And beginning with what's stated in the rules themselves as their Guiding Principles. First is that rules should establish order. They should be clear. user-friendly, and they should enforce the will of the majority while protecting the rights of the minority. These rules have been utilized, they're being utilized more and more by governmental entities, particularly smaller governing bodies. than say 21 member bodies or larger bodies that still utilize Robert's Rules of Order. because those rules are really difficult, frankly, to follow and understand. So the idea was to come up with something that was more user-friendly and more transparent, both for the body using them and for the public who is attending those meetings. The rules also include a statement of purpose. It's actually under one of the principles in the rules. and that is they're designed to encourage discussion and facilitate decision making. Um, again, enable the majority to express itself in fashion and results. while permitting the minority to also express itself, but not dominate and fully participate in the process. The rules then go on to define the role of the chair in running the meeting. The chair is, in this case, the mayor, who is charged with applying the rules of conduct and ensuring that they're adhered to. The decisions of the chair are final, unless they're overruled by a majority of the council. to ensure that everyone has the full right to participate in the discussion. They do set out that the mayor is kind of asked to strive to speak last on discussion and debate, and that's the process that's typically followed. and that the chair doesn't typically make a motion or a second unless nobody else seems to be stepping up. to do so. And you know, these are not hard and fast rules. It's not a violation for the chair to make a motion. It's just what they're recommending. Then the rules go on to outline the process by which you take an agenda item for consideration. It's the way you've done it tonight. The item is announced. Call on the staff member to make the presentation, listen to the presentation, then there's an opportunity for the Council to ask questions for technical clarification You call for and listen to public comment generally you limit public comment to three minutes a person unless you poll the room and find that you've got so many people it would take up your whole discussion and then there's a discussion about limiting that. and then you formally close public comment. The item is then brought back up to the dais. The chair would invite a motion And, The rules call out that you announce the name of the member making the motion. It's usually clear to staff who's made the motion, and if it's not clear, we'll ask you for that clarification. |
| 02:56:45.63 | Stephan Bühn | who's made it. |
| 02:56:49.87 | Mary Wagner | You then determine if there's a second, and again announce the name to the staff and the public unless it's not a parent who made that second. Now, Rosenberg's rules say that an agenda second on a motion isn't required, but that it's good practice, and that it's up to the chair's discretion to determine if a second should be obtained or not before the motion is entertained. then in order to ensure that the motion is understood by everybody, and we've done this a couple times tonight, You can either request that the maker repeat the motion you can restate the motion, the chair can restate the motion him or herself, or request that the city clerk repeat the motion for you. Debbie and I went through this presentation tonight before putting it on the the presentations folder and she's told me that if she has to repeat the motions, it often takes her a minute because she's finishing writing them down, so we just ask your indulgence, if you will, in letting us catch up with where you are in that process. Because sometimes when you're talking quickly, it can be difficult for us to follow and we need a minute to catch up and we'll ask you for that. for that time if need be. The chair would then invite discussion on the motion. And now this goes to your protocols, where it deviates a little bit from Rosenberg's rules or further flushes them out, if you will. in that each council member is given three minutes for discussion. and It's almost a use it or lose it. You guys determined that you weren't going to retain any of that time, so if you only took a minute, you didn't get two more minutes later. and if you passed, you didn't get to come back later and say, wait, I want my three minutes now. after every member has either been given that opportunity to participate in the three-minute discussion or passed, you go into kind of a round of one minute rebuttal and continued discussion each council member is given the opportunity to have their minutes and then that goes on until you're done. until there's been a motion to call the question. You do have in your protocols also that council consensus or a vote is required to reopen public comment or to call staff back up to the podium to answer additional questions. So once you've taken it up, We will try not to jump back in unless you all ask us to, and there's consensus that you want that further input. The rules go on to say after there's been discussion, it might be necessary to restate the motion so everybody remembers what it is that you're actually being asked to take action on. And then you vote on the motion either by voice vote or a roll call vote. Typically, you only require a simple majority, and if something different is required, if there's a supermajority vote required, Um, try and point that out. Then you announce the results of the vote and the action taken and the rules actually state that the names of the members in minority be clarified for the record. |
| 02:59:55.80 | Mary Wagner | There's three types of motions that are outlined in Rosenberg's rules. The first is the basic motion, putting forward what you're asking your fellow council members to consider and vote on. There's a motion to amend the motion. which retains the basic motion but changes it in some way. And then there's the substitute motion, which completely does away with the original motion on the floor. The example that's used in Rosenberg's rules is somebody makes a motion to appoint a five-member committee to determine an annual party. And then the motion to amend would be, well, I think we should have 10 people. And the substitute motion would be, I don't think we should have a party at all. |
| 03:00:35.27 | Herb Weiner | Yeah. |
| 03:00:37.66 | Mary Wagner | I tried to think of a clever example, but decided to stick with Roche-Murse. So you can have multiple motions on the floor at any one time. And they can have up to three motions simultaneously. And as you know, and we've discussed in the past, you vote on Last motion first. Each motion is open to discussion and debate, and your three-minute, one-minute rules apply to each of those discussions and debates. There are exceptions to discussion and debate, and if a council member makes one of these motions, and it's seconded if the mayor determines that there's a need for a second. then actually debate and discussion stops until that motion is resolved. These are a motion to adjourn. that requires a simple majority. a motion to take a recess, which requires a simple majority A motion to fix the time to adjourn, say for example, you wanted me to stop talking in five minutes, you could say we're done at 10.15. as opposed to just telling me to stop talking That also requires a simple majority motion to table. which I akin to what we've been terming a motion to continue. It can include a specific time for the item to return, or it can be as something was done tonight on the bulkhead item to continue to a date uncertain or just continue to a future agenda. What's interesting is Rosenberg's rules say if you make a motion to table and there's not a specific time for us to bring it back to you, you have to vote to take it off the table and put it back on the agenda. Then there's the motion to limit debate. Sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself. I guess nobody's looking at this. Typically call the motion to call the question, or, you know, I call for the question, I call for vote on the motion. can include a time limit, so you could say, you know, motion to limit the debate to five more minutes because it's getting late or for whatever reason. |
| 03:02:28.78 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 03:02:28.80 | Herb Weiner | THE FAMILY. |
| 03:02:28.87 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 03:02:28.89 | Herb Weiner | It's a great day. |
| 03:02:28.97 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 03:02:36.43 | Mary Wagner | That requires a two-thirds vote to pass, and we did talk about that at your last council meeting as well. And when you do the math, two-thirds of five is 3.333, and you round up so that it's actually four out of the five, if there's five members present and voting on the item. There is this motion to close nominations, and I included it up here because it is listed in Rosenberg's rules. It applies to nominations on positions on the council, and the positions you have on the council are the mayor and the vice mayor. So if somebody wants, and that requires a two-thirds majority to pass, that's not on the voting on who is going to serve in those positions, but if you want to stop nominations, then you would make that motion and have a second. you would vote on that motion. There's kind of another obscure motion, which is a motion to object to consideration of the question. And you would make that motion if there's something on your agenda that you just don't think should even be on the agenda. Um, It's not subject to discussion and debate. Once the motion's made and seconded, discussion stops and you vote. Again, this one, again, needs a two-thirds majority to pass. We haven't really talked about this one, although I think it's been in play a little bit at times, is the motion to suspend the rules. So if you wanted to give limit council members to two minutes on your first round or expand it to five minutes or to... do something else which tinkers with these rules. That motion is subject to discussion and debate and again requires a two-thirds two-thirds vote of the council to consider. There's a motion to reconsider, and we have dealt with this one a little bit in the past also. So say there's been an action on a motion and somebody who wants to talk about it some more and potentially change the way in which they took action. It has to be made at the meeting at which the item was first voted on or at the very next Interesting question, if it comes up at the next meeting and it's not on your agenda, you have to agendize it for a future meeting potentially because of the Brown Act implications. And it can only be made by a member who voted in the majority. So somebody who says, you know what, wait a minute, I thought of something else or something came up and I want to reconsider. Um, And again, at that same meeting or at the very next meeting. Rosenberg's rules also include some rules of courtesy and decorum or discusses them one person at a time is to have the floor. Every speaker to first be recognized by the chair before proceeding to speak. Debates should focus on policy, not personality, and the chair has the right to cut off discussion. in certain circumstances. |
| 03:05:19.22 | Stephan Bühn | Yeah. |
| 03:05:22.58 | Mary Wagner | So despite the rule that only one person should speak at a time, Rosenberg's also includes some permissible times to interrupt somebody else. Point of privilege. |
| 03:05:25.04 | Stephan Bühn | that's how you get it. |
| 03:05:31.08 | Mary Wagner | which means there's a fan blowing and I can't hear somebody. The room is freezing and I can't focus on what's going on. We need to change that. motion, you know, debate would stop, you try and fix the problem and then come back to it. There's also a point of order. If you feel the rules aren't being complied with, you would call for a point of order. There's also an opportunity to appeal a ruling of the chair if you feel that a ruling has been made. an error. and then calls for order of the day, which are basically saying, let's get back to what we're supposed to be talking about in front of us if things have kind of drifted off. And then you can also withdraw a motion, which we also saw happen tonight. So I included this slide, which talks about public input, is to kind of remind us of why these rules are in place, so that there is the transparency and people understand the council's being asked to take action on Tell us the public what the council will be doing. keeps the public informed while the Council is doing it, and when the Council has acted, the public will know what the council did. Then I included this last comment. which is actually, I think, one of the last statements in the rules, is that the rules presented here, it's actually a direct quote, |
| 03:06:38.70 | Stephan Bühn | Thank you. |
| 03:06:43.31 | Mary Wagner | conducting a meeting are offered as tools for effective leadership and as means of developing sound public policy. So since it's been a year and a little bit since you guys have been operating with these rules, we wanted to give you the opportunity to kind of go through them again and then actually suggest that Um, there be further discussion at a facilitated team building or workshop where we go through these rules and determine if you need any additional modifications to them, if they're working, if they're not working. and what we as staff can do. to help facilitate the council utilizing these rules to have effective, efficient meetings that are apparent to the public on the business that's being conducted by the council. And with that, I'd be happy to answer any questions. |
| 03:07:26.73 | Herb Weiner | Any questions up here? |
| 03:07:27.64 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. Thank you. I have a question. On page three under the column to the rights, it's to debate or not to debate. says in the last sentence in the first paragraph, says the debate can continue as long as members of the body wish to discuss an item. subject to the decision of the chair that it's time to move on and take action. And that would tend to mean that the chair could limit debate on an item. Is that correct? It's a few diluted. |
| 03:08:02.44 | Jonathan Leone | time on the agenda for different items. I mean, how do you stick to that without churning through three minutes, one minute, one minute, you know, forever? Or asking questions for a long period of time? |
| 03:08:12.68 | Mike Kelly | asking questions for her prolonged period. |
| 03:08:16.22 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 03:08:16.24 | Mike Kelly | Thank you. So the way I read that is that it does indeed give the chair the authority. And then if the council disagrees with that, a simple majority can overrule the chair. |
| 03:08:32.07 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, I think that when you adopted your protocols, you all... Sorry, I'm sorry. |
| 03:08:36.20 | Mike Kelly | I'm sorry, I thought that was a question. Then the last thing is that that, because if there weren't some limit somewhere, At a council where you had a 3-2 split, you never get the two-thirds, so you just debate until... End of the earth. |
| 03:08:56.74 | Linda Pfeifer | Amen. |
| 03:08:57.79 | Mike Kelly | So I guess the question is, is that a correct interpretation? Yes. |
| 03:09:04.89 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, I think as part of adopting your protocols, you also directed staff or directed that times be included by every item and that you are trying to adhere to those times because at that point one of the issues that the Council was really struggling with is that you were meeting really long and really late and he didn't want to have issues come before you at 1230 for significant discussion or issues come before you at 1230 at all. So I think that that's consistent with what the council was trying to I think that's something that the Council should talk about. and that we should actually have on the agenda to talk about at length. You know, how do you want to handle limiting time limits? Because that's where I see them coming in. I see the chair saying, We allotted 20 minutes to this discussion, it's now been 45, we need to cut it off. And if that's the direction from the council, That would be the... the Mayor's authority as the chair to run the meeting that way. |
| 03:10:05.57 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor, may I come? And so I look at this and I see a kind of a distinction. You've got debate and then you have comments. You know, you hear someone comment and then you respond. You're not necessarily debating a point. You're just sharing a point of view. And that's where I believe call the question, you know, comes in. To call the question and you have the what is it the three quarters vote I mean you have the four of the five have to agree to call the question to stop comment |
| 03:10:43.27 | Mary Wagner | when you're just |
| 03:10:44.89 | Linda Pfeifer | when you call the question. |
| 03:10:46.85 | Mary Wagner | I think you did. |
| 03:10:47.56 | Linda Pfeifer | According to your... |
| 03:10:50.61 | Mary Wagner | This is a production of WGBH. Okay, my handout is a summary, right? It's not meant to be all inclusive. And I can tell you that what they say in here is that a motion to limit debate |
| 03:10:53.90 | Herb Weiner | Right? It's not magic. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 03:11:05.48 | Mary Wagner | it doesn't limit it to whether it says The chair should have a, typically it uses the word debate, and if you want to say that I'm just commenting, not debating, I don't know that you guys you're going to be able to get a you're accomplishing what you're trying to get to, by having a semantic discussion about whether you're commenting or debating, but I think that is the perfect thing for you guys to talk about and give us direction on how you would like to see that rule implemented because these are your rules of order and your rules of procedure of how you want to run the meeting. |
| 03:11:38.86 | Mike Kelly | Well, again, I think it's in conflict with itself because |
| 03:11:39.13 | Linda Pfeifer | and just like... of. |
| 03:11:43.40 | Mike Kelly | Back to page three, it says, to debate or not to debate. And then it says, the debate can continue as long as members of the body wish to discuss an item subject to the decision of the chair that it's time to move on and take action. |
| 03:11:56.93 | Mary Wagner | It seems to be in conflict with the motion to end debate. So I think that it is the perfect point to get some clarity on it. |
| 03:11:59.65 | Mike Kelly | So, I think. |
| 03:12:03.88 | Mike Kelly | We could have a three to two split and go on forever. You have no way to stop it. |
| 03:12:14.78 | Linda Pfeifer | Mr. Mayor, if I may just a quick question. And then I also think perhaps we can, I think Mary, you make a good point with regards to clarifying and discussing this. And as a team, maybe off at a meeting to get clarity on this. Because I also see a distinction between debate versus comment, versus asking a question, asking a question of city staff for clarity. Thank you. |
| 03:12:15.58 | Mike Kelly | If I may just. |
| 03:12:43.44 | Carolyn Ford | Okay, and I would just weigh in on this issue, saying that I think it's important that both sides of an issue be aired. So I think we have to be very careful when we talk about limiting debate, and from my perspective, uh, whether I'm in a majority or a minority on a subject, I think that it should be four members of the council making that decision. So, because the public has a right to hear all sides. But I think we're getting into commenting instead of questions at this point, and so I think we need to save our comments, get public input before we start commenting anymore. |
| 03:13:32.68 | Adam Politzer | Mr. Mayor, if I can just if Councilmember Ford would allow me to take her comment into a question to staff. you I think one of the things that we talked about at our last team building, regardless to the debate or the discussion, I think that is important. I think there's importance to have that balance so that the opinions are shared. But I think when we talked about this in the team building, Thank you. We also want to be respectful to the members of the community that may be in the audience for other items on the agenda. And one of the suggestions that I think that I'll make when we have our team building opportunity is at the beginning of that item, if it's scheduled for 30 minutes, is to see if there is consensus, if that's enough time, and maybe polling the audience to see if the majority of the audience is there for that item. We're going to know that public comment is probably going to exceed the 30-minute limit. But I think it'll be important to put some parameters on um, on the questions of staff. Public comment. and the debate to some degree that we can assure the public that their item that may be later on the agenda is also heard in a timely fashion. And one of the suggestions would be let's take 15 minutes of time. Let's take 15 minutes for questions of staff, then table that to open it up for public comment. And if there's still questions that need to happen to resume questions of staff after the public has had an opportunity to make their comments. And then again limit that to another ten minutes so that we can give the people in the audience some assurances that we're going to move on to their item. And I think that's what we were trying to share with the council of the importance of respecting the community that are there for other items other than the one that's maybe taking the most time because of its controversial nature. and you could also say let's continue this item to the end of the meeting so that you take a break at that moment, bring the other items forward, and then continue it later into the evening so that you take a break at that moment, bring the other items forward and then continue it later into the evening so that there's still the opportunity to ask questions, still opportunity to have debate, but not to forget that there are other items on the agenda that also deserve the same level of attention. |
| 03:14:42.19 | Stephan Bühn | And... |
| 03:16:04.45 | Carolyn Ford | Mr. Mayor, are we going to hear from the public on this item? Because I do have a lot of comments I'd like to make, or I'd like my three minutes. |
| 03:16:05.33 | Adam Politzer | Yeah. |
| 03:16:14.58 | Herb Weiner | Okay. All right, at this time here, any comments from the public? Okay, let's bring it back up. |
| 03:16:23.52 | Jonathan Leone | I just had a question. Is there, are you going to go through these protocols too? because these are equally as important. It's just the meeting protocols. It's just how you interact with staff, and some of it dovetails to meeting, Are we going to go through these at this point in time? Because there are actually some of these are much more important in some ways. |
| 03:16:45.59 | Mary Wagner | Absolutely, Council Member Leonis. Both of them are on your agenda. I focused on the meeting procedures in this forum and would suggest that if the council wants to walk through the protocols, we can or that that be the subject of a of a facilitated meeting in the near future. |
| 03:17:05.58 | Robert Haley | That's who we do. |
| 03:17:08.34 | Jonathan Leone | Yeah, I think it bears, it's fine, we can schedule another time, but it bears pointing out that a lot of these protocols are not being followed in terms of how council members interact with staff in terms of creating work or directing a city manager or city attorney to do certain things. And I think that is unfair to staff to not follow the protocols, which everyone here adopted. So I think we should do it in the shorter term rather than the longer term. |
| 03:17:12.83 | Robert Haley | and... |
| 03:17:13.03 | Herb Weiner | on. |
| 03:17:37.60 | Jonathan Leone | Okay. |
| 03:17:38.55 | Carolyn Ford | Yes, I would like to definitely, I endorse an offsite to |
| 03:17:38.92 | Jonathan Leone | Yes. |
| 03:17:39.27 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. |
| 03:17:39.29 | Jonathan Leone | Thank you. |
| 03:17:39.36 | Herb Weiner | you |
| 03:17:50.43 | Carolyn Ford | discuss both our protocols and our parliamentary procedures. And I think that what we need, because there are several things that we're not doing, and we know we're not doing. And some of those are, you know, we're not, addressing the chair before speaking, interrupting others, having side conversations while someone is talking, denigrating remarks to other council members in the public, And I think that what we're going to have to do is hold some practice sessions during this training. so that we get used to doing these things because we're...they're clearly something we adopted a year or so ago and we're not doing them. So we need some practice and if that doesn't work I'm going to suggest that we get a professional parliamentarian to call us on when council members are out of order. So that We have help. in restoring order to our Council. And the second thing I think that would help in terms of our meetings is that We try to end these meetings at 10 p.m. Five and seven hour meetings are too much for anyone. And when it gets late at night, It's not fair to any of us, and it's certainly not fair to the public to be holding discussions on issues at 10, 11, 12 o'clock. So I would like to suggest that in addition to following Rosenberg's rules, which I think will help. that we reorder the agenda. that we reorder the agenda to Address action items and decision-making items first with those that we know will have great public interest being first Secondly that we hear any Consent items pulled if there if there is One pulled and there is some disagreement that we continue those to the next meeting if possible so that open discussion can be had and public input can be gotten because that typically would mean if there's disagreement that there's probably disagreement among our residents and the third is that we follow that with informational items and if not enough time if there's not enough time For that, that we continue it to the next meeting, or that council simply be provided with the written material to read outside a council meeting. I think both these things will help. |
| 03:20:53.98 | Herb Weiner | Okay. Any other comments, further comments on this? EP. |
| 03:21:00.66 | Michael Rex | Thank you. |
| 03:21:00.78 | Herb Weiner | you No. Alright, let's move on to the next item. City Manager information. |
| 03:21:15.98 | Adam Politzer | I'll keep this very brief and just share with you that the management team did hold its annual team building and retreat yesterday, all day yesterday. Very successful opportunity for us to talk about the year to come and things that were going well, things that we have opportunities to build upon. And I think that you'll see some of this play itself forward when we sit down at our strategic planning session that I know that our city clerk has reached out to you folks. And I think we're looking at November 11th as the date that we'll be holding the next city council and Management Team retreat. So again, it's all part of a, I see as a process with the priority calendars, the strategic planning session, and the budget where the managers take the opportunities to sit down and look ahead and then bring that forward to the strategic planning session. So we look forward to that November 11th date. I'm happy to answer any questions of counsel. Otherwise, that ends my report. |
| 03:22:36.09 | Herb Weiner | Any questions? Any comments from the public at this time? |
| 03:22:36.11 | Adam Politzer | Okay. |
| 03:22:42.82 | Herb Weiner | I'm keeping it back up here. Okay. Thank you, Adam. Future agenda items? |
| 03:22:54.68 | Herb Weiner | And I think, Okay. None. Good night, Robin. |
| 03:23:03.38 | Herb Weiner | Thank you. . |
| 03:23:04.78 | Herb Weiner | Um, |
| 03:23:07.33 | Herb Weiner | you Thank you. |
| 03:23:08.64 | Herb Weiner | There was a typographical error. Thank you. appointments of the boards for the MCC MC. I'll make that at our next meeting. And that will be for the Oversight Committee and the Legislative Committee of the MCC MC. And with that, I move to adjourn. |
| 03:23:31.29 | Herb Weiner | Five seconds. |
| 03:23:32.69 | Herb Weiner | All in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Good night. |
| 03:23:33.75 | Herb Weiner | Bye. |
| 03:23:39.93 | Herb Weiner | Mr. Calabash, wherever you are. |
Dan Howes — Against: Advocated for sandwich signs as crucial for new Princess Street businesses, suggesting a permit process or collaborative signage solution with the city. ▶ 📄
Susan Nathans — Against: Criticized the sign ordinance as draconian, highlighted economic struggles of small businesses, and questioned the enforcement rationale and complaint basis. ▶ 📄
Unnamed Speaker (Rotary Housing) — Neutral: Requested the Council schedule a discussion on an exclusive negotiating agreement with Rotary Housing regarding a shared property off Butte Street. ▶ 📄
Robin Sweeney — Neutral: Asked for an item about surplusing a van to be removed from consent calendar to propose a food program that could use the vehicle. ▶ 📄
Marina O'Neill — Against: Presented research from other cities that modified sign ordinances to support merchants, urging the Council to reconsider the current enforcement. ▶ 📄
Carla Jacobs — Against: Shared that her business is failing due to the sign ban limiting visibility and zoning restrictions preventing subletting, leading to financial strain. ▶ 📄
Lorna Newland — Against: Supported aesthetic signage solutions to help businesses and artists thrive, emphasizing the role of sales tax and parking fees in the city budget. ▶ 📄