City Council Meeting - November 13, 2012

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Meeting Summary

None
Roll Call, Pledge of Allegiance, and Agenda Announcement 📄
The meeting began with roll call, where all council members were present 📄. Ray Gerges led the Pledge of Allegiance 📄. Mayor Kelly announced there was no closed session and that Item 5B, the Appeal of Harmonia Wellness Center, would not be heard tonight 📄.
Agenda Approval
CITY COUNCIL MEETING BEGINS AT 7:00 PM 📄
The meeting begins with a request to continue an unspecified item to a date uncertain, which is added to the approval agenda. A councilmember requests moving business item 6A (resolution of intention to amend agreement with CalPERS) to the next meeting due to feeling unwell and needing to leave early, but staff explains the timeline requires adoption that evening for it to proceed this year 📄. The Mayor suggests moving the item up in the agenda, and after some discussion about renumbering items, the agenda is approved with changes 📄. Councilmember Pfeiffer notes a question about a consent calendar item to be addressed later.
Motion
Motion to approve the agenda as amended 📄.
a
Swearing in of Police Officer Justin Ritz and Reserve Officer Marius Ramos; introduction of Contract Evidence Technician Zaneta Feleo 📄
Chief of Police Jennifer Tejada introduced three new additions to the Sausalito Police Department. She thanked the City Council for approving funding for the positions. First, Zaneta Feleo was introduced as the Contract Evidence Technician, described as having extensive experience since 2006, including policy rewriting and networking across departments, and noted for her organization and efficiency 📄. Second, Reserve Officer Marius Ramos was introduced; his background includes IT work, pursuit of a criminal justice degree, and prior police experience in San Rafael. He was sworn in by Chief Tejada 📄. Third, Police Officer Justin Ritz was introduced; he is a U.S. Army veteran with two deployments to Iraq and graduated from the police academy in Windsor. He was also sworn in by Chief Tejada 📄. The council and audience welcomed all three with applause.
c
Presentation by Dr. Larry Meredith, Marin County Health Department, on their project to end homelessness and from Sergeant Stacie Gregory on our local program 📄
Mayor Kelly introduces the presentation by Dr. Larry Meredith from the Marin County Health Department on their project to end homelessness, and also mentions Sergeant Stacie Gregory will speak on the local program. The transcription provided is only the introduction, so the full content of the presentation, discussion, and any councilmember comments are not included in the given data. 📄
b
Presentation by the Sausalito Sustainability Commission for the 2012 Green Business of the Year Award 📄
The item begins with Mayor Kelly introducing the presentation by the Sausalito Sustainability Commission for the 2012 Green Business of the Year Award 📄. However, the provided transcript does not contain any actual content related to this specific presentation, discussion, or award. The preceding transcript excerpts cover unrelated topics: a presentation on homelessness in Marin County and an update on a homeless health fair program. There is no mention of the Sustainability Commission, the Green Business Award, or any related discussion in the given text.
b
Presentation by the Sausalito Sustainability Commission for the 2012 Green Business of the Year Award 📄
The Sustainability Commission presented two awards. First, the Green Business of the Year Award was given to Life Factory, a company based in the ICB building with 11 employees, recognized for manufacturing environmentally friendly, toxin-free products, including a water bottle made from recycled materials 📄. Commissioners highlighted criteria like energy conservation and green staffing. Co-founders Darren Joy and Pam Marcus accepted the award 📄. Second, an award was presented to Bay City Refuse Service for their long-term service and implementation of composting and recycling programs in Sausalito, with praise for their community commitment and customer service 📄. Councilmembers expressed gratitude, with one noting personal use of Life Factory products and appreciation for Bay City's efforts 📄.
2
COMMUNICATIONS 📄
Two members of the public spoke during the Communications item regarding library closures during the holiday season. Patricia DeLuca, representing the Library Board of Trustees, requested that the City Council keep the library open from December 26th through December 30th, noting that it was closed during that period last year and that patrons complained 📄. Barbara Geisler, president of the Sausalito Library Foundation, also asked the council to keep the library open during a potential 10-day closure period and thanked the council for the upcoming library remodeling project 📄. Mayor Kelly clarified that the topic was not on the agenda and could not be discussed that night but would be taken up at a future meeting 📄. City Manager Adam Politzer provided clarification, stating that holiday closures have occurred for five consecutive years and that city staff is currently meeting with unions to discuss options. Any recommendation would be brought back to the council, likely on November 27th 📄.
Public Comment 2 2 In Favor
A
Minutes of the Regular City Council meeting of October 25, 2012 📄
The item involved a motion to approve the minutes from the October 25, 2012, regular council meeting. The Mayor called for motions 📄, and an unknown speaker made the motion 📄. The Mayor then called for a vote 📄, with no discussion or comments from councilmembers recorded in the provided transcript.
Motion
Motion to approve the minutes of the regular council meeting of October 25, 2012 📄.
4
CONSENT CALENDAR 📄
Councilmember Pfeiffer raised questions about Item 4D, an RFP for an EIR for the Valhalla project, specifically regarding whether the EIR would analyze impacts on private views 📄. Staff clarified that CEQA primarily focuses on public vantage points, but private views would be considered during the design review entitlement process 📄. A discussion ensued about the scope of CEQA, with City Attorney Mary Wagner explaining that the EIR consultant determines impacts based on CEQA criteria, and private view impacts are typically addressed during Planning Commission design review 📄. Mayor Kelly emphasized that the EIR is a disclosure document governed by state law, and approving the consultant contract allows the process to begin 📄.
Motion
Motion to approve the consent calendar as presented 📄.
A
Utility Underground Committee Variance Appeal - 29 Glen Court (City Engineer Todd Teachout) 📄
City Engineer Todd Teachout presented a report on an appeal by Robert and Brenda Forsyth of 27 Glen Court against the Utility Underground Committee's decision to grant James Sparkman a variance from undergrounding requirements for his major remodel at 29 Glen Court. 📄 Sparkman's property does not front a public right-of-way, requiring easements from neighbors to underground utilities, which he could not obtain despite months of negotiations and legal efforts. 📄 The committee granted the variance based on financial hardship, as undergrounding costs ($41,000) exceeded 1% of the property's market value. 📄 Sparkman testified about extensive efforts to secure easements, spending $5,700 in legal fees, and claimed the Forsyths' appeal stemmed from their expectation that the project would remove a pole affecting their view. 📄 Robert Forsyth argued that Sparkman should have budgeted for undergrounding and that neighbors were willing to cooperate, but agreements stalled over contract wording. 📄 Councilmembers discussed the lack of neighbor notification in the variance process and the difficulty of coordinating multi-party undergrounding projects. 📄 Dan Pusini, Chair of the Underground Committee, confirmed the variance was granted due to financial hardship and offered to help mediate. 📄 Councilmember comments included concerns about the noticing process and support for upholding the committee's decision while encouraging neighbor collaboration. 📄
Motion
Motion to deny the appeal and direct staff to return with a resolution of denial on the consent calendar, with the appeal fee waived for the appellants. 📄
Public Comment 3 1 In Favor 1 Against 1 Neutral
A
Resolution of Intention to Amend Agreement with CalPers (Administrative Services Director / Treasurer Charlie Francis) 📄
Adam Politzer presented the resolution to amend the CalPERS agreement to implement a second pension tier (Tier 2) for new employees, as authorized through MOUs with bargaining groups. Key points: Tier 2 lowers benefits and costs compared to Tier 1 (existing employees). For miscellaneous employees, benefits change from 2.5% at 55 to 2% at 55, with final average compensation moving from 1 year to 3 years. For police safety employees, benefits change from 3% at 55 to 2% at 50, also with 3-year average compensation. 📄 Cost savings: Miscellaneous employer contribution drops from 16.1% to 10% for new hires (net ~3.7% reduction). Police safety employer contribution drops from 36.9% to 20.5% for new hires (16.389% savings). 📄 PEPRA (Public Employees Pension Reform Act) creates a Tier 3 for employees hired after Jan 1, 2013 without CalPERS reciprocity; Tier 2 ensures those with reciprocity enter a lower tier than Tier 1. 📄 Approval timeline: resolution of intent tonight, ordinance introduction Nov 27, adoption Dec 11. 📄 Council discussion: Councilmember Pfeiffer asked for the actuarial report (Gov Code 7507), which was referenced but not fully provided. 📄 Councilmember Weiner questioned the long-term impact of police retiring at age 50 vs. 55; Politzer explained actuarial costs remain similar due to lower benefit percentage (2% vs 3%). 📄 Councilmember Ford expressed disappointment over lack of a 401k-like plan but supported for small savings. 📄 Councilmember Pfeiffer concurred, noting impact is 20-30 years out. 📄
Motion
Motion to adopt a resolution of intention to approve an amendment to contract between the Board of Administration, California Public Employees Retirement System, and the City Council of Sausalito. 📄 Motion passed unanimously with roll call: Becker (Yes), Ford (Yes), Weiner (Yes), Leon (Yes), Kelly (Yes). 📄
C
Introduction and first reading, by title only, 'An Ordinance of the City Council of the City of Sausalito Establishing Regulations for New Accessory Dwelling Units and an Amnesty Program for Existing Unpermitted Accessory Dwelling Units' 📄
Staff presentation covered nine key issues in the ADU ordinance draft. Council discussed: 1) Parking waiver in exchange for affordability covenant (moderate income level removed, only low/very low) 📄. 2) Amnesty parking retention requirement already incorporated. 3) Garage conversions allowed with on-site parking replacement 📄. 4) Exceptions for size/coverage/setbacks via CUP without affordability requirement (Councilmember Pfeiffer opposed, but motion passed) 📄. 5) Privacy objective standard with CUP exception process. 6) Submittal requirements added. 7) Noticing requirement for all new ADUs (except internal conversions) within 300-foot radius, despite concerns about ministerial compliance 📄. 8) Amnesty floor area waiver removed. 9) Minor edits. Council also reduced minimum ADU size from 300 to 275 sq ft 📄.
Motion
Motion to introduce and read by title the ordinance with modifications: accept staff language for Issue 1 (parking/affordability) but remove 'moderate' income level; accept Issue 4 (exceptions) as is; accept Issue 7 (noticing) as per staff report; change minimum ADU size to 275 sq ft; and add clarifying language for parking exception. Motion passed 4-1 (Councilmember Pfeiffer opposed) 📄.
Public Comment 2 1 In Favor 1 Neutral
A
City Manager Information for Council 📄
City Manager Adam Politzer announced that the city manager's report would be postponed and picked up at the next meeting on November 27th 📄. Mayor Kelly joked about giving a long-winded report, but Politzer indicated it would be brief. The council then quickly moved through the remaining items with no further discussion on this item.
B
Future Agenda Items 📄
Councilmember Pfeiffer requested to place the Bicycle Pedestrian Committee on a future agenda to discuss resurrecting and moving forward with interviews for that committee 📄. Mayor Kelly responded that she would likely defer that to the new mayor but would include it as part of the new mayor's transition materials 📄.

Meeting Transcript

Time Speaker Text
00:00:00.03 Mayor Kelly would you please call the roll?
00:00:03.35 Debbie Council member Pfeiffer? Here. Council member Ford? Here. Council member Weiner?
00:00:07.79 Mayor Kelly President.
00:00:08.20 Debbie Vice Mayor Leone.
00:00:09.94 Mayor Kelly here.
00:00:10.41 Debbie THE FAMILY.
00:00:11.40 Mayor Kelly Here, Ray Gerges, would you lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance?
00:00:14.96 Unknown Thank you.

LAUGHTER
00:00:16.27 Debbie Ha ha ha ha
00:00:19.23 Unknown with allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.
00:00:19.64 Unknown you
00:00:19.72 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:00:19.98 Unknown to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice.
00:00:23.93 Unknown Thank you.
00:00:23.98 Unknown Thank you.
00:00:23.99 Unknown and to the Republic.
00:00:25.02 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:00:25.18 Unknown Thank you.
00:00:25.28 Mayor Kelly for which it stands.
00:00:29.34 Mayor Kelly the business.

with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you, Ray.

Here.

All right, the council did not meet in closed session tonight, so there is no closed session announcements.

and no comment on closed sessions. Now it brings us to the agenda. Tonight we're not going to hear Item 5B, the Appeal of Harmonia Wellness Center.
00:00:59.72 Mary Wagner There's been a request for continuance on that item, Mr. Mayor, from the applicant appellant. And if the council is so inclined, you could take action on that with the approval of your agenda.

Staff's recommending that it be continued to a date uncertain so that when the Council's meeting schedule for 2013 is set, we would be able to notice it then.
00:01:17.28 Mayor Kelly Okay. Is everybody comfortable attaching that to the approval agenda?
00:01:20.96 Mary Wagner Thank you.
00:01:20.98 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:01:21.01 Mary Wagner Thank you.
00:01:21.03 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:01:21.33 Mary Wagner Thank you.
00:01:21.50 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

All right. So do I have a motion?
00:01:25.11 Unknown Mr. Mayor? Yes. I have a request. I'm still not feeling well. And I see a pretty busy schedule here even without harmonia. And so I would like to move that we
00:01:26.30 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:01:46.12 Unknown take up the business item 6A, which is the resolution of tension to amend agreement with CalPERS to the next meeting if possible, because I'm going to have to leave early this evening.
00:02:00.50 Mary Wagner Mr. Mayor, as outlined in your staff report, there's a schedule of actions that have to occur for this to go into place prior to the end of the year, which include the adoption of the resolution this evening with the intent to amend the contract, which is then brought back to you.

with an ordinance with first reading at your next meeting in November and second reading at your first meeting in December. And if we don't make that timeline, this won't go into place as required Thank you.
00:02:29.14 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:02:29.16 Mary Wagner All right.
00:02:29.34 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:02:29.36 Mary Wagner Thank you.
00:02:30.50 Mayor Kelly I could...

I suggest we move it up. I don't think there's any problem crossing business items with public items.

And does anybody have an objection to moving it up?
00:02:46.91 Unknown Thank you.

When you have to do that, I just need to get in there.
00:02:51.28 Mayor Kelly All right, for the underground.

How many people are here for you, Brian? I don't know yet.
00:02:53.76 Unknown Thank you.
00:02:54.00 Unknown Thank you, everybody.
00:02:54.52 Unknown Thank you.
00:02:55.11 Mayor Kelly 29 Glen Court. 29 Glen Court. Raise your hand so I can see who it is. OK, just a couple. I hate to make you wait, but we
00:03:02.28 Unknown But we could move it into the Harmonia slide. You're okay? Yeah.
00:03:05.06 Mayor Kelly Are you okay? Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's move it to the home learning spot then. So we'll make item. Thank you, appreciate it. You're welcome. We'll make item six.
00:03:07.99 Unknown Thank you.
00:03:08.00 Unknown Thank you.
00:03:16.44 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:03:16.64 Unknown Thank you.
00:03:16.68 Unknown Thank you.
00:03:16.83 Unknown Thank you.
00:03:16.98 Adam Politzer Thank you.
00:03:17.00 Unknown Thank you.
00:03:17.03 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
00:03:17.47 Adam Politzer Thank you.
00:03:17.52 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
00:03:18.16 Unknown Thank you.
00:03:18.28 Mayor Kelly I'll just...
00:03:18.38 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
00:03:19.97 Adam Politzer you
00:03:20.03 Unknown Thank you.
00:03:23.02 Mayor Kelly It's got to go into the public hearing. We have a 5C. It's got to become 5B. So it becomes 5B. So 6A becomes 5B.
00:03:26.29 Unknown But we have a...
00:03:27.04 Mary Wagner 5C.
00:03:29.03 Unknown of the Thank you.
00:03:34.11 Mary Wagner Thank you. Mr. Mayor, if you prefer, you can just make business items 5 and hearing item 6.

So you're not... Is that okay, Debbie? No, she doesn't like that. Never mind. City clerk's shaking her head at me. You like it. You like it.
00:03:39.93 Mayor Kelly That's great.
00:03:44.96 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Thank you.

You're lucky.

Put it the way it is, like I just said. Okay, she likes mine. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. So with those changes, do I have a motion?
00:03:46.19 Mary Wagner Thank you.
00:03:56.79 Mayor Kelly I move we approve the agenda.
00:03:59.30 Unknown Second.

Thank you.
00:04:00.21 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor, quick question. Regarding the consent calendar, shall I, I'd like to, I have a question about one of those items. During the consent, I just wanted to double check.
00:04:00.25 Unknown And- Click, click.
00:04:08.72 Mayor Kelly During the consenting.

Okay. So we have a motion and a second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed?
00:04:12.51 Unknown Okay.
00:04:12.95 James Sparkman Yeah.
00:04:12.97 Unknown Thank you.
00:04:15.30 Councilmember Pfeiffer Bye.
00:04:17.44 Mayor Kelly All right.

two.

Oh, good. Presentations, special presentations. A.M. the first is swearing in of police officer Justin Ritz and reserve officer Marius Ramos. Thank you.
00:04:30.55 Unknown Oh, no.
00:04:41.44 Barbara Geisler No.
00:04:45.50 Unknown Hello.

you Good evening, Mayor, Vice Mayor, Councilmembers, City Manager, City Attorney, and City Clerk, and everybody in the audience. This is a great occasion for us at Sausalito Police Department. We have three new additions to our family, and the first person is our Property and Evidence Technician. I want to say a special thank you to the City Council for having the wherewithal to approve the funding for this position. It's a very important position, one of the most important positions in the Police Department because this person is in charge of evidence and if we don't have our evidence in proper order, then we can't do our job well. So this is a very important position in the department and I thank you for approving that in the budget. I would like to introduce to you Zanetta Fileo. Come on up, Zanetta.
00:04:53.50 Patricia DeLuca And...
00:05:43.72 Unknown Thank you.
00:05:51.33 Unknown I'll tell you a little bit about Zanetta. She started with Twin Cities Police Department in December of 2006. She was hired as a community service officer and assigned to the traffic unit. She worked on parking enforcement, traffic control, and was a certified car seat installer. In 2009, Zanetta was promoted to work in the evidence room. Since then, she has helped rewrite policy to be with current and ever-changing case laws and codes. Zanetta now has an opportunity to network with other brothers and sisters in law enforcement as a shared service between Sausalito Police Department and Twin Cities Police Authority. I know Zanetta is excited for the opportunity and is ready for the challenge. I've actually visited Sausalito and seen her workplace. She's an outstanding employee and her evidence room is something to see. She's very efficient and organized and very happy to have her on board. Outside of work, Zanetta loves to go swimming, camping, and lots of travel. Yes, she has a checklist like all good evidence tags. And she lives in Nevada with her mom and her brother. Please join me in welcoming Zanetta.
00:07:17.97 Unknown Chief, can we?

Do you want us to shake your hand?
00:07:35.57 Unknown Thank you.
00:07:37.97 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
00:07:40.06 Unknown Thank you.
00:07:40.25 Unknown Thank you.
00:07:40.58 Unknown Welcome aboard.
00:07:40.62 Unknown We're going to be right back.

in the gorge.
00:07:42.47 Unknown Thank you.
00:07:43.18 Unknown I'm sorry.

Thank you.
00:07:44.97 Unknown Thank you.
00:07:45.04 Unknown you
00:07:48.83 Unknown I'm
00:07:56.31 Unknown Thanks.
00:07:59.74 Unknown Okay, the next addition to our family is actually a police reserve officer, and I also want to take this opportunity to thank you for approving the funding for this position. It's very important for us to continue to deliver the quality service that our citizens expect, and this is certainly going to help us continue to do that. If Marius would come up.
00:08:34.26 Unknown This is Marius Ramos, and he was born in the Philippines, and he came to the United States at a young age. His hometown is San Francisco. I think he's a Giants fan. Where he currently resides with his beautiful wife, Margaret, who's here tonight, and there are three children. We have Samantha, we have Caleb, and Quinlan, who's at home, 15 months old.
00:08:43.63 Unknown Thank you.
00:08:43.75 Unknown Fuck.
00:08:44.30 Unknown LAUGHTER
00:08:44.98 Unknown Yes.
00:08:58.34 Unknown Um, Marius has worked in IT for more than 15 years in roles as IT manager, project manager, systems engineer. He presently works full-time at Ross Corporate as an IT systems analyst. He's also working towards his bachelor's degree in criminal justice. His hobbies are traveling, drawing, cooking, martial arts, and most important, spending time with his family.

Marius' inspiration for law enforcement came from his late father, who was a police officer for over ten years in the Philippines. Marius put himself through the police academy. He started at the San Rafael Police Department as a cadet, and then he served as a police officer for a year and a half, also with San Rafael Police Department.

His desire to work closer to home and in a smaller department has brought him to Sausalito, where he hopes to become a full-time police officer. I'm now going to swear in Marius.

Yeah.
00:09:57.19 Unknown Thank you.
00:10:03.16 Unknown Thank you.
00:10:11.78 Unknown Thank you.
00:10:11.88 Unknown Thank you.
00:10:11.93 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
00:10:13.54 Unknown So stand on face knee and raise your right hand.

I say your name.
00:10:18.57 Unknown as far as
00:10:30.97 Unknown Thank you.

against all enemies.

foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California, that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation.

or purposely bathing, and that I will well and faithfully and without being fully discharged for duty.

Thank you.

Thank you.
00:12:05.05 Unknown .

you Thank you.
00:12:41.58 Unknown Okay, and we have a third addition to our family.

Justin Ritz. Justin, will you come up here, please?
00:12:59.10 Unknown Justin was born and raised in Santa Rosa, California. He went to Montgomery High School in Santa Rosa.

After high school, he attended Santa Rosa Junior College and worked full-time.

In 2006, he joined the U.S. Army and became a military police officer.

Justin deployed not once, but twice to Iraq, once in 2007 and again in 2010. Thank you for your service.

The military provided a great opportunity for him to serve his country and also gave him the training and experience to be successful in a civilian police position.

In 2012, after leaving the military, Justin attended the Basic Police Academy in Windsor, and upon graduation he was hired at Sausalito Police Department.

In his free time, Justin enjoys getting outdoors to go hunting, fishing, and skiing. He also tries to make time for the gym to help stay in shape.

So I'm going to swear you and Justin will do it in front of the flag.
00:14:44.86 Unknown Thank you.
00:14:44.87 Dan Pusini and the hospital.
00:14:47.13 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.
00:14:49.68 Dan Pusini I don't think the congregation is freely Thank you.
00:14:51.42 Unknown you
00:15:18.99 Unknown Yeah.
00:16:11.49 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:16:11.98 Patricia DeLuca you know.
00:16:12.15 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
00:16:15.62 Mayor Kelly All right, that brings us to the next presentation by Dr. Larry Meredith, Marin County Health Department. Don't you give him a second.
00:16:27.50 Unknown I'm not sure.
00:16:27.57 Mayor Kelly I'm not sure.
00:16:34.66 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:16:35.98 Unknown Wait a minute, someone's coming up here.
00:16:42.74 Unknown Good evening, Mayor, Vice Mayor, Councilmembers, and audience. Let me provide a brief overview of what we're doing in homelessness in Marin County. It may seem odd, but there's no...

specific state or federal mandate that we address homelessness, but it does get
00:17:06.59 Lars Jensen I'm impressed.
00:17:06.91 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
00:17:09.36 Unknown part of our responsibilities for safety net maintenance for those who are uninsured for mental health, substance use, and a variety of other public health issues, including general assistance or food stamps and Medi-Cal for people who have an inability to pay. About five years ago, for the first time, the county hired a homeless coordinator. And this was an important decision because it provided a point of contact for coordinating planning, addressing the service needs, being an advocate for funding from many sources, for providing a forum for the HUD plan. We have an annual plan that we submit to Housing and Urban Development that enables us to capture in the order of $2.6 million for service providers. None of that money goes to the county. It goes directly from the feds to the service providers.

We also have a management information system so that we can track homeless individuals for planning purposes and keep track of them as we have successes through permanent housing.

The...

HUD, well let me say, the county, the economic forum has estimated that overall, The county spends in the order of $41.4 million a year for addressing homelessness. A portion of that is to Health and Human Services and to the community-based organizations for services. And a portion of it is for Marin General and Kaiser, other hospitals, and then a portion for justice, law enforcement, and for addressing those issues. Our approach has been with the HUD funding to seek permanent housing, and we've had a number of programs, one called Housing First that takes
00:19:33.86 Patricia DeLuca with.
00:19:44.27 Unknown individuals who have had a long history of homelessness and provides them housing through a scattered site approach, not in an institutional environment And it has been incredibly successful. I think you can, you look like you may remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and it's a triangle that clearly, if you're not addressing the needs for housing and for meeting your various needs for safety and food, then you never get to self-actualize. And what we have found that through a Housing First policy, we've been able to keep people out of harm's way and their whatever issues have been surrounding them and, and, and, creating homelessness than really shed away. We've also used the federal stimulus funding a few years ago for rapid rehousing. Our whole approach is either to put people in permanent housing and we have a fairly vast array of housing that is through various providers, Buckaloo being one of our major providers, but also for people who may be a paycheck away from being homeless or unable to pay to get into a less expensive apartment or housing situation for them and their family, then we would pay the first and last month's rent, facilitate the move to make sure that we don't have another casualty and families on the street. We work very closely with a variety of providers that are very competent and effective in dealing with folks whose lives are not working.
00:21:21.15 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
00:21:21.27 Unknown Thank you.
00:21:21.28 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
00:21:21.32 Unknown Thank you.
00:21:21.33 Patricia DeLuca you
00:21:59.49 Unknown Each, we have a housing policy steering committee, one of the areas we thought was important was to bring the representatives from the 11 cities in Marin together with board of supervisors, providers, and homeless advocates along with members of the Justice Committee so together we could represent all points of the compass in a planning effort to address the policies, practices, and funding requirements to help people move into the future.

a situation that could sustain them. As you no doubt are very aware, over the last four years with the economic downturn, then many who have done everything right have found themselves in harm's way and economically without the means and on the street. And the congregationaries, I think, in our last Count and Sausalito, there are about 30 individuals in the county. There are in the order of, let's see here,
00:23:24.57 Unknown There are a total of 4,000 individuals who are precariously housed. That is, they're couch surfing, they're staying at a friend's, they have lost their permanent housing, whether it be an owned home or rental, and there are about 1,270 people living on the streets.

In January, HUD requires us as a part of the application for their funding to every other year do a point in time count. And so we'll be doing that again in January. And this enables us to take an accurate reading of the magnitude of the problem facing Marin. As I was mentioning, the congregation points tend to be in San Rafael and Nevada where there are a number of the service agencies and just a denser population.

The causes of homelessness, well, I think the economic decline has pushed too many people into poverty, and they've been unable to make their housing payments. The high cost of housing in Marin is a contributory factor. The employment, although Marin has one of the lowest unemployment rates in California, the cost of living is high, and it's...

The jobs that are available are generally service jobs that pay a low hourly wage and have no benefits. And then there are a whole vast array of substance abuse and mental health issues that too often undermine the individual's job.

life.

This winter we are working with the Marin Organizing Committee to create a shelter system, a rotating emergency shelter system. The Marin Organizing Committee is made up of members of a number of the faith communities and take 50 male individuals to different sites each night. And we have arranged a pickup system and feeding system for people. The campus in San Rafael, the health and wellness campus, provides shelter for 20 women every night, and the faith communities come together to provide the meals and snacks for people, So that's the arrangement. Our focus has been not on temporary shelters, but moving people into permanent housing. And as you may have read, Homeward Bound is a major player in this. They have a really quite phenomenal facility in Novato. And they are now, they've bought some property and they're creating family housing for 12 families that are coming through homelessness in a very creative fashion that is state-of-the-art design. So there's a ton of creativity that's needed.

And one of the ways that we've partnered with you, and I think you're going to hear a little more about, is working with the anchor outs. And this is really, homelessness is one of the, in my view, along with the, too many people in this nation being uninsured is one of our national obscenities, and it there's no single silver bullet that's gonna answer the problem. It takes communities working together with the non-profit communities, government, justice, the businesses, and together we can solve it, but it is not made easy by the economic conditions where too many people are having a difficult time. I would be happy to respond to any questions you have or comments, and
00:27:59.21 Mayor Kelly Any questions?

on this.

Thank you.

Bye.

Thank you.

Stacy, where are you going?

Say something.
00:28:19.22 Stacy Just give a quick update on what our homeless program is done.
00:28:29.89 Stacy Um.

Our health fair was designed to reach the anchor out and also the homeless community here in South Seattle. The purpose for this is especially the start of one That's okay. Is to make sure that they're safe and healthy throughout the winter months. So this was held on October 4th, this past October, in Dumpy Park. We set up in the gazebo there. You see the picture. The participation was 50% of what it has been for the last two events. So when there's people there waiting for us to arrive, that shows to me that this is working. So there were people there waiting. We had approximately 40 people show up. It was about 18 or 20 the last time, roughly 18, 20 people. And there were a lot of new faces, people that we hadn't had contact with. So this says that the word is spreading throughout their community. I did put notices up in different locations throughout town to notify them, but the word's spreading and they're coming to us for the assistance that we're providing.

Some of the supporters, obviously, our police department, Marin County Division of Aging and Adult Services, nurses there, veteran services we work very closely with, Humane Society was there, the HIV team of the county, Marin AIDS Project, St. Vincent's provided supplies as well as West Marine products.
00:30:08.66 Stacy There were, I'd say, about 15, 20 nurses there doing intake, doing questionnaires, gathering information from the people and from all these different schools. I mean, it was amazing how excited they are to talk to these people and try to get them to latch on to some of the services that are available out there, and just to inform them of the services, because a lot of them are unaware.

So some of the services we provided, we gave flu shots, which is huge. Ten people got flu shots. We gave coupons for eye exams.

Um, Humane Society gave out dog food, leashes and collars. I mean, these dogs were getting outfitted with all kinds of new stuff. West Marine provided life vests as well as blankets, so we were able to give some of those to the people that needed it, emergency kits. They were giving out condoms, a bunch of other information as far as safe sex and what people can do to protect themselves. We had lunches, St. Vincent's DePaul provided lunches, and a lot of information about county services, and that's the main part of this program is to link these people up with the services that are out there. There's man that showed up, somebody that I'm familiar with as being homeless in our community, and I asked him, do you want, you know, you're here, what do you need, a flu shot? And he said, no, I'm just here to tell you that he had came to our first fair, health fair, and hooked up with a veteran service officer.

did their thing and he's now living in an apartment in Larkspur. He looks great. He wouldn't let me take his picture. I wanted to put it up here, but he wouldn't let me do that. So that's one success. The other is when I was up here last, I spoke about the female anchor out that is having the teeth problem. Her teeth have been extracted and she's about halfway through the process of getting her dentures. So she's supposed to have them for Christmas. Hopefully that's the case.
00:32:00.86 Unknown Hello.
00:32:21.68 Patricia DeLuca to have a
00:32:26.78 Stacy And then the biggest thing is what I touched on earlier, is just the trust and the communication that has increased is great. I mean, people are willing to come to us and ask for help. They're coming to us and sharing stories. They're coming to us to help with their friends who they know need the help that we can provide them with. So I think that's the biggest success out of all of it, is that those relationships are getting better.
00:32:39.20 Patricia DeLuca coming.
00:32:46.74 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
00:32:51.92 Stacy And some of the daily involvement that we do as a program is we have the Emergency Services Fund, where we give bus tickets, food, you know. We'll give money to get places when they can't afford it, just so they can actually get what they need. The referrals to the veteran services is huge. You know, every homeless or anchor out contact that we have, we don't know if they're a veteran already. We're asking that question and sending them on.

And then information sharing. And now knowing, now that we know more of the services that are out there with the county, we can send them and link them up to the right places. So it's working. And that's all I got. Any questions?
00:33:38.99 Adam Politzer Yeah.
00:33:39.21 Stacy Thank you.
00:33:40.34 Unknown Stacey, you know, you've been... Thank you for, A, doing this for now it's a number of years that you've been sort of getting these programs together and getting organized and working with the county and the various service providers throughout the county.

the more you become acquainted with this community, I think there's a lot of folks who have misgivings about anchor outs and folks who are struggling. But I think from your perspective as a police officer, you've interacted with them on both sides of many issues.

I think what some of these stories are telling us is that a lot of this is just people who need a hand and to get somewhere where they're trying to go. And having been in a couple of the Project Homeless Connects, it's amazing how one thing can help start to turn somebody's life around, whether it's teeth or whether it's, you know, having a DMV there and they can finally get their license back.

It's incredible what you're doing and I think one of the things you're doing besides just bringing the services to these people is to create that sense of trust with the law enforcement community. And maybe you can speak to how that's changed. You mentioned it a little bit, but I think that's really important, both for folks taking advantage of these services and for the community as a whole.
00:34:56.29 Stacy Yeah.

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is that the word is spreading, so the success stories are catching. So people realize that, well, maybe I could reach out and get some of the services. So I think that's the big thing, is the trust and knowing that somebody has had a successful relationship and contact with us and that we've actually helped them and not tried to arrest them or not tried to cite them. I think that's the biggest thing. Mm-hmm.
00:35:18.43 Unknown Thank you.
00:35:31.41 Adam Politzer Good job.
00:35:33.03 Mayor Kelly Excellent job, Stacy. Thank you.
00:35:34.60 Unknown Thank you.
00:35:34.72 Adam Politzer Exactly.
00:35:34.90 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:35:35.39 Adam Politzer Thank you.
00:35:44.57 Mayor Kelly All right, we've come to that point in the evening where it's time for public... And thank you, Dr. Meredith, as well. Yes, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming.
00:35:47.58 Unknown And thank you, Dr. Meredith, as well. Yes, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming. Thank you.
00:35:51.37 Unknown you
00:35:51.44 Mayor Kelly sustainability.

Oh, there's one more.

Thank you.

This is the presentation by Sausalito Sustainability Commission for the 2012 Green Business of the Year Award.

How could I forget that?

Greg Ergis.
00:36:11.74 Unknown Good evening, City Council and fellow citizens.

As you probably know, the Sustainability Commission endeavors to recognize business or organization every year for its sustainability practices. We don't do it every year because we get busy doing other things instead, but the last couple years we have been successful and it's happened again tonight.
00:36:40.04 Unknown Thank you.
00:36:42.42 Unknown We always try to recognize a business or organization who endeavors to promote sustainability activities in their business.

And we also encourage all the citizens and other businesses in Sausalito to reuse, reduce, and recycle, always.

When the Commission undertakes such a little project, there's always a committee of two whose job it is to identify a company, and I asked one of those committee members what criteria you use to come up with a candidate.

And he immediately said, the primary criteria is, you know it when you see it.

But besides that, we look for an organization who endeavors to conserve energy in their business, to look at their product as a sustainable product, to look for a company that undertakes to employ green staff members, and so forth. So with that in mind, we have truly been successful in determining a candidate for this year. That candidate has the name of Life Factory. It's located in the ICB building. They have a staff of 11 people. They've been in business, I think, since the year 2005. They manufacture and sell environmentally friendly products and products also that are specifically free of all toxins because their market is not just adults but children as well. One of their outstanding products that's currently on the market is a particular water bottle that is made all from recycled materials. And whether you like it or not, each of you are going to get a bottle right now.
00:39:06.40 Unknown I want to bottle them right now.
00:39:07.78 Unknown Thank you.
00:39:10.63 Unknown Thank you.
00:39:18.95 Unknown And there's one for our city manager as well.
00:39:29.05 Dan Pusini Thank you.
00:39:37.70 Mayor Kelly That's pretty cool.

is that Thank you.
00:39:47.83 Unknown The person that's presenting these to you is one of our commissioners, Linda Shandfein.
00:39:52.97 Unknown you
00:39:56.60 Unknown Thank you, Linda.
00:39:57.45 Unknown Thank you.
00:40:01.21 Unknown And now I would like to have a representative of Life Factory come forward, and hopefully there is such a representative there.
00:40:16.16 Unknown and you must be Darren Joy.

and your partner is Tam Marcus, and she could not be here tonight.

Thank you.
00:40:27.67 Dan Pusini Yes.
00:40:28.97 Unknown Well, this is a token of our appreciation for the type of company that you represent. And I'm gonna read what it says, the Soft-Sero Sustainability Commission, Green Business of the Year Award, presented to Pam Marcus and Darren Joy, co-founders of Life Factory Incorporated, for extraordinary service and dedication to keeping Sausalito Green 2012. Congratulations.
00:41:11.59 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:41:11.61 Unknown Thank you.
00:41:16.28 Unknown but I'm not quite finished.

This is not an award for Green Business of the Year. And I don't need any notes for this one because what we want to recognize tonight is a business enterprise that's been serving the community of Sausalito for a long time. They just finished undertaking a big project for Sausalito. And you have it in the form of toters. They're colored green and blue. That may give you a hint of who I'm talking about.

It was quite a challenge for them to undertake that project. You might not realize the problems that are generated by such a project. And it wasn't easy. And they worked very hard.

to make it start.

And it started without It started with some problems, and I think some of the problems are still being solved. But they have been successful, and our Sustainability Commission has worked very closely with them, and we know how hard they did work. I can assure you that it's been a challenging project. And with that in mind, I want to give them recognition. So would those representatives please join me.
00:42:36.70 Unknown Thank you.
00:42:48.05 Unknown Thank you.

Great.
00:43:01.35 Unknown This plaque is a very small token of our appreciation for what you've been doing for the community. I know that you're a profit-making company, but it goes much further than that. You've been of great service to Sausalito. This plaque says the Sausalito Sustainability Commission and the city of Sausalito wishes to honor Bay City's Refuge Service in recognition of their long-term service to the environmental and sustainability concerns of the city of Sausalito.
00:43:35.66 Unknown Thank you very much, Greg. Thank you, Ray.
00:43:47.52 Unknown And thank you very much. Thank you.
00:43:51.53 Unknown Mr. Mayor, I just have one comment. I would like to thank Greg and Greg. Well, first of all, the Sustainability Committee for implementing composting, but...
00:43:54.91 Patricia DeLuca Yeah.
00:43:54.93 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:43:55.05 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
00:44:03.41 Unknown Greg Christie and Greg Smith have been just wonderful.

in making sure that it happens and satisfying everyone's needs. And I really appreciate that, to the point that I saw Greg Christie out one Sunday with his sons.

making sure everything was going right so thank you very much your you get an A plus for service
00:44:27.48 Unknown I want to just say that, you know, my daughter discovered these, and my eight-year-old, and she takes it to school every day and has told her fellow students about this. And from a family who used to make glass containers, it's great that you're actually doing this. I know it's not perfectly unbreakable, but it's a great step. And when my wife discovered this was in Sausalito, she's networked out and recommended this product to a lot of folks.

And thank you for being in Sausalito, and thank you for doing the right thing.

And for Greg and Ray, I've known you guys for 13 years now.

as the first being on sustainability or what was then the waste and recycling Um, Commission.

And I think we are, obviously, we...

you know, it's a business relationship, but you guys go far and beyond a business relationship with the community of Sausalito. And to see how far your company has evolved in that time in terms of, you know, leading us through just recycling to start and then all the way now into food waste, green waste in the middle, and all that stuff. It's incredible the numbers that you folks have helped us achieve in terms of our ability to avoid waste going to landfill and also your commitment just volunteering and being a part of this community, which, you know, many, suppliers to government do not do that type of thing. And both of you deserve credit for that from a leadership point of view. And we, I know, speak for myself and I think folks here, it's great to have you as a member of our Saucelito team.
00:46:00.48 Unknown .

Thank you.
00:46:04.83 Mayor Kelly Yeah, you give great meaning to the word customer service. I mean, it's unparalleled in these times.
00:46:11.28 Unknown .

Thank you.

I see a business who will let somebody put in the mailer, and I think you said this when you were here talking about the food recycling, yeah, you're only supposed to put out this amount of green waste, but don't worry about it. And we know that it's sort of sweat off your back to do that, and we appreciate that very much.

Thank you very much.
00:46:35.38 Unknown Thank you.
00:46:35.44 Unknown Thank you.
00:46:35.46 Unknown Thank you. I'd also like to thank you for this. Yes. I will use it. I guarantee it. Thank you. Terrific. Thank you.
00:46:35.80 Unknown Thank you.

Yeah.
00:46:37.80 Unknown Thank you.
00:46:37.82 Unknown Thank you.
00:46:40.84 Unknown Thank you.
00:46:40.88 Unknown Thank you.
00:46:40.91 Mayor Kelly Terrific.

Yeah.
00:46:45.58 Unknown Hey.
00:46:45.91 Mayor Kelly Perfect. All right. Thank you, Ray. Thank you, Linda.
00:46:45.95 Unknown Perfect.
00:46:49.90 Mayor Kelly All right.

Now we'll come to public communications, and this is the time that the Council gets to hear from citizens who have issues they would like to discuss that are not on the agenda. Is there anyone here that would like to address the Council?

on any matter that's not on the agenda?

All right, seeing none, we'll move on to action minutes of the previous meeting.
00:47:13.19 Unknown Nope, she's there.
00:47:16.30 Unknown you
00:47:17.12 Mayor Kelly I couldn't see you.
00:47:21.38 Unknown No, it's okay.
00:47:24.08 Patricia DeLuca Good evening, I'm Patricia DeLuca and I've been appointed by the Library Board of Trustees to speak briefly. But first of all, as the board member, I'd really like to thank each and every one of you for your support over the years, and that includes the administration as well. It's very much appreciated. But tonight I'm here to request that the City Council keep the library open between Christmas and New Year's, especially December 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, and 30th. And because the library was closed during this time last year, and because we received complaints, we do not want our patrons to suffer the same hardship again this year. Last year we were told that it was a one-time decision to close the library and that it would be reconsidered this year. So we do hope that it will remain open. So therefore, we as the Library Board of Trustees strongly hope that the City Council will choose to keep the library open from December 26th through December 30th.

Thank you.
00:48:35.61 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:48:36.35 Unknown Thank you.
00:48:41.18 Mayor Kelly Barbara?
00:48:42.32 Barbara Geisler Good evening, I'm Barbara Geisler. I am, who am I? I'm president of the Sausalito Library Foundation. And I'm here, I understand you're going to decide whether or not to close City Hall for two weeks. And I ask that you, I'm going to go ahead and go ahead and go ahead
00:48:48.76 Unknown Thank you.
00:49:00.80 Barbara Geisler keep the library open during that 10-day period.

I think the citizens will appreciate it. We certainly will. And also thank you for the joint venture coming up in remodeling the library. I think it's gonna be a wonderful improvement. That's it, thank you.
00:49:21.31 Mayor Kelly Thank you. You realize that this is not on the agenda for tonight, so we can't discuss it tonight, but we'll take it up in the next meeting.

Thank you.
00:49:31.23 Adam Politzer Can I just give one point of clarification because it was mentioned that this was a one-time event last year. It's actually, we've done it five years in a row. And so the city staff is meeting and conferring with the unions to have this discussion. And if, in fact, the recommendation from the unions and staff is to propose a closure program, we would again bring that back to the council. And in the past, the city offices were closed and the library were closed for certain days. And the days that we're looking at right now is Monday, the 24th, the day before Christmas, which is on Tuesday, and again on New Year's Eve, which is the Monday, the day before Christmas. So the discussion is at the beginning. If there is support from staff to move forward with a recommendation of any type of closure, we'd be obligated to bring that to the council, and we would do that most likely on the 27th of November.

Right.
00:50:37.57 Mayor Kelly Okay, any other members of the public want to address the council on any matter not on the agenda?

All right, seeing none, we'll move on to action minutes.

Any corrections additions?
00:50:55.66 Mayor Kelly All right, do you have motions?
00:50:57.07 Unknown Motion to approve the minutes of the regular council meeting of October 25th.
00:51:04.24 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:51:04.28 Unknown Thank you.
00:51:04.40 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

One second.

All right, all in favor?
00:51:06.62 Unknown Thank you.
00:51:07.15 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:51:07.18 Unknown I'm not sure.
00:51:07.32 Unknown I don't know.
00:51:07.33 Unknown Bye.
00:51:07.38 Unknown .
00:51:07.52 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
00:51:07.64 Unknown Thank you.
00:51:07.67 Unknown .

I need QFC, because I was in here.
00:51:09.74 Unknown Thank you.
00:51:09.78 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

So.
00:51:10.79 Unknown Thank you.
00:51:11.87 Mayor Kelly All right.

And that brings us to the consent calendar. Consent calendar items are usually matters that are routine in nature, non-controversial, and expected to have unanimous support. But any member of the public or any member of the council can ask to remove and have a hearing on any individual matter. That being said, any requests to move?
00:51:36.83 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor, I am considering requesting the removal of item 4D or if I can ask a question for clarification. So I know this is an RFP for the EIR for Valhalla and on page 4D 2-4A it talks about aesthetics and visual resources. It refers to...
00:51:48.03 Unknown Yes.
00:52:02.95 Councilmember Pfeiffer The project altered the visual character of the site and its surrounding area as well as views of the Bay.

talks about a rigorous visual assessment, talks about CAD and 3D formats. I just wanted to clarify that that EIR will, with respect to aesthetics, will consider view impacts of the surrounding neighborhood.
00:52:31.49 Unknown Good evening, Mayor Kelly, members of the City Council, and the community. The IER will definitely include that. The most important view impacts would be from public vantage points. And the IER will also consider private vantage points as well. So that's, again, the primary focus being on the public vantage points.
00:52:51.01 Councilmember Pfeiffer So the primary focus will be on the public vantage points. However, they will also look at the private vantage points as well.

If a neighbor lives like two blocks away and says that that will impact their view, will they look at that impact as well?
00:53:08.26 Unknown So part of the EIR process includes a scoping meeting. So what's going to happen is once the contract gets executed, staff will meet with the consultants, come up with a schedule, and before the consultant will even begin any work on the EIR, there will be a community meeting where the entire community or anyone that's interested in this project would have an opportunity to provide any comments, and those comments would be analyzed in the EIR.
00:53:34.94 Councilmember Pfeiffer Okay, so that was basically my primary question was about the views. So it sounds like although the primary focus would be on public Private views will also be considered and then people will have a forum to be able to clarify that.
00:53:49.18 Jeremy Grace Excuse me, Jeremy Grace, Community Development Director. I think I'd like to amend the comments that Associate Planner Heidi Burns provided. As the environmental document, it needs to look at the impacts that are identified by CEQA. and CEQA establishes aesthetic impacts as being viewpoints identified in the general plan and including views from public properties, streets, right of ways, parks, the bay, back to the city. So that would be the focus of the environmental impact report. However, as part of the entitlement process for the project, the project needs to have a design review permit and as the council knows, one of the findings that the planning commission needs to make to approve a design review permit is that impacts for primary views, that being from private properties, need to be... that the project cannot impair primary views from private properties.
00:54:34.37 Patricia DeLuca Impressive.
00:54:49.49 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
00:55:08.85 Jeremy Grace from private properties. So while the environmental document will not be looking at private views in order for the project to be approved, the entitlement process will need to take into account private views.
00:55:15.72 Unknown in order to apply.
00:55:25.87 Councilmember Pfeiffer So will the EIR consider the view ordinance or is the view ordinance considered as part of the design review and the entitlement process?
00:55:37.20 Unknown land.

I'm sure.

Thank you.
00:55:40.10 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
00:55:40.13 Unknown I think, well there is no view ordinance, but there's a view restrictions to zoning ordinance. But the, I believe part of the secret process that you have to be in compliance with all local zoning and that being part of local zoning.
00:55:40.22 Councilmember Pfeiffer I'm good.
00:55:44.01 Councilmember Pfeiffer Oh, my God.
00:55:44.30 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
00:55:53.28 Unknown it would you'd have to examine that as part of the SQL review, if it would have an impact on on Because part of this actually is saying that the project is not having a certain level of impact on local zone areas.
00:56:07.32 Jeremy Grace And the proper forum for analyzing consistency with local ordinance is this particular project will be needing a designer view permit and that determination is written by the climate conditions.
00:56:20.06 Councilmember Pfeiffer Okay.
00:56:21.05 Jeremy Grace So in summary, private views will be certainly fully taken into account as part of the review of the project.
00:56:30.03 Councilmember Pfeiffer But to Councilmember Leon's point, it sounds like CEQA includes local ordinances which would consider private views as well.
00:56:40.04 Jeremy Grace but we're not looking for the environmental documents to predetermine the impacts upon private views. That's the role of the Planning Commission.
00:56:49.96 Unknown but will it document them excuse me
00:56:50.00 Jeremy Grace But will it?

Thank you.
00:56:52.11 Unknown Yeah.
00:56:52.41 Jeremy Grace Sorry.
00:56:52.97 Unknown No, that the...
00:56:53.02 Jeremy Grace you know.
00:56:53.20 Unknown Thank you.
00:56:53.25 Jeremy Grace it.
00:56:53.32 Unknown Yeah.
00:56:53.39 Jeremy Grace the sequel check consult use locations consultation from second street angles certainly we And certainly we will be trying to take into account moving up the hill from 2nd Street and identifying where public views may be impaired by any modification of the project's roof line.
00:56:54.37 Unknown SQL.
00:57:32.25 Councilmember Pfeiffer If I have more questions, I'm inclined to pull this item because of the CEQA interpretation.
00:57:35.05 Jeremy Grace So
00:57:35.14 Mayor Kelly I had a big...
00:57:35.88 Jeremy Grace I'm sorry.
00:57:36.30 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
00:57:36.35 Jeremy Grace Thank you.
00:57:36.37 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

We have two issues here.
00:57:42.04 Mary Wagner We have...
00:57:44.97 Mayor Kelly One issue is what's inside of a CEQA document and an environmental impact report versus design review and other processes that the city has. That's a discovery issue. Then we have here, we're being asked to do tonight is to approve the setting up of an EIR.

And EIR is governed, and Mary, you can weigh in on this, it's governed by state law. It's very specific as to its purpose and as to its scope, although you can scope it in a larger way by looking at more in different angles. But in my experience, it's not a knowledge. It's not specific to the project and its environment around it as it relates to a design review process. So I think Jeremy's right about what he says, but Mary, would you weigh in on that? Thank you. to the project and its environment around it as it relates to a design review process. So I think Jeremy's right about what he says, but Mary, would you weigh in on that? I think we can approve this item tonight to get the ball rolling on the EIR, which the applicant is entitled to do for a huge cost of money, by the way. And he's entitled to that whether it would result in some future event or not, that the future event is to be determined. The Environmental Impact Report is merely a document
00:58:07.39 Unknown Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.
00:58:07.74 Dan Pusini Thank you.
00:58:11.76 Jeremy Grace Mm-hmm.
00:58:33.68 Unknown Yes.
00:58:42.97 Patricia DeLuca applicant is.
00:58:59.80 Mayor Kelly that scopes.
00:59:01.55 Jeremy Grace It's a disclosure card.
00:59:02.53 Mayor Kelly Disclosure document, exactly.
00:59:02.55 Jeremy Grace Thank you.
00:59:04.22 Mayor Kelly and giving the public plenty of time to opine on it, there's all kinds of sessions and discussion that goes on. And this is a nine-month process, if I read this correctly. And in some cases, it turns into years in various environments in San Francisco, for example. So Mary, would you comment on the?
00:59:17.89 Mary Wagner Thank you.
00:59:21.77 Mary Wagner Sure. So the item before you is the approval of the contract with the CEQA consultant. And we're going to work with the CEQA consultant to help them as the experts inform us about what the impacts of the project are. And as you know, there's a checklist of all the different types of impacts. I concur that the public views are the primary CEQA consideration. And I also concur that individuals can raise issues at any point during the CEQA process and say, you know, for any number of issues, noise, visual impacts, other aesthetic portions of the project, So it's an evolving process. So for us to say to you tonight it's going to include an impact from this, I'm going to get a little more specific than you're being, but we're not going to tell you it's going to include an analysis of a particular view from particular private residents.

at that point yet.

I also concur that the design review process is the appropriate avenue for that.

But as you also well know, CEQA and the project become very melded and the description of the project in the CEQA document is what drives the analysis.

I think you can rest assured that if there are private view impacts that people are concerned about, They will be brought forward throughout the entire public hearing process, both CEQA, either by the CEQA consultant or by the individual who believes it needs to be included.

and then through the public hearing process at the Planning Commission level.
01:00:54.28 Councilmember Pfeiffer So Mr. Mayor, I just have a clarification with our city attorney. So what you're saying is that we would not, we don't have the option of declaring the scope of the CEQA for EIR to include certain private view impact? That was my question. Well, no, Mary.
01:01:12.76 Mary Wagner That was my question.

I think the CEQA consultant has to help develop what the impacts of the project are. That's their job.
01:01:21.30 Councilmember Pfeiffer I understand the impacts of the project, but my question is-
01:01:21.33 Mary Wagner No.

I think they will look at all the visual impacts of the project. And I'm not going to tell you they're going to exclude anything. I don't know. They need to help us understand.

Form that.
01:01:32.11 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.

My question, Mary, which has not been answered yet, is it within our purview to define the scope of CEQA, EIR, to include an analysis of impact of private resident views? Could we do that?

And it's okay if the answer is no, I'm just asking.
01:01:53.83 Mary Wagner It's not something that I have been familiar with where we've asked a CEQA consultant to go on to private property and analyze the impact from that.

that private.

piece of private property.
01:02:05.98 Unknown I mean, I think it's important to understand the SQL process in that that what this consultant will do is draft a document. That document will be a draft.
01:02:13.76 Robert Forsyth Mm-hmm.
01:02:14.10 Unknown It will come to the
01:02:14.11 Robert Forsyth Thank you.
01:02:15.11 Unknown to go to the staff for review and they will address concerns they have with that consultant. And then it will come to the Planning Commission. The Planning Commission has to, and the city, have to certify that document as not being at those criteria of impact on all the secret criteria, one of which is local zoning and part of our local zoning is view impact. So the opportunity to raise view impact is Because as you said, I think Mary said, this is an evolving document. It is not, here's a document and that's what all the impacts are. It's meant to start the ball rolling and I think the reason why they have consultants always look for the public, because there's no one to speak for the public views and the consultants look for the public views. What the impact is in apartment 4F on 321 Main Street, The consultant can't visit every residence. It's up to the whole plan to flush those impacts out so that people will come down and say, here, I have a problem with this. So that will be part of the plan and commission process. And then the...

the impact report will have to assess those claims of impact and then either come up with mitigation or say that there's no way to mitigate that impact.
01:03:24.04 Mayor Kelly There are something like 48 or 50 or 50 or 60, I can't remember the number now, of categories included in a full EIR. This is not a mitigated NAGDAC. This is a full, so every one of those boxes has to be checked, and it has to be checked that there's...

no impact, medium impact, or heavy impact. And then each time you check medium or heavy or impact at all, you have to mitigate those impacts. So views will come up, but in many different ways. And individual views, however, will not be addressed in the EIR. They will not say that the House at the corner of 3rd and Main is impacted by this report. They will describe an impact by a neighborhood or by a view corridor or whatever, and then when the application is presented for design review, that will be there. But there's plenty of time for everybody to opine on every subject under the sun in a full-blown EIR, and I'm sure we will. So I think that what we're asking to do tonight is just hire the consultant so we can get this process started because every applicant is entitled to their day in court, and this is his day in court.
01:04:12.29 Lars Jensen Good.
01:04:45.55 Unknown And Mr. Mayor, and I think it's comforting to see that as part of the EIR, they are going to be holding meetings with the public. Lots of them, yeah.
01:04:54.76 Mayor Kelly Lots of them, yeah.

Thank you.

Okay, can we leave it on the consent calendar?
01:05:03.44 Mayor Kelly All right. All right. Any other items on the consent calendar anybody's concerned with? If not, can I get a motion?
01:05:11.71 Unknown Mmm.
01:05:13.19 Unknown So moved. Second.
01:05:15.25 Mayor Kelly All in favor?
01:05:16.20 Unknown All right.
01:05:17.09 Mayor Kelly Any opposed?

That brings us to our first private hearing. Thanks, Heidi. Thanks, Jeremy. Thank you.
01:05:21.61 Unknown Thanks, Heidi. Thanks, Jeremy. Thank you.
01:05:26.10 Mayor Kelly which is the Utility Underground Committee Variance Appeal for 29 Glen Court. Ta-ti-chao.
01:05:53.89 Todd T. Chow Mr. Mayor, fellow council member of the public, I'm Todd T. Chow, I'm a city engineer. I'm here to present a report about an appeal to an action taken by the Indigrown Committee in June to review and to ultimately grant James Sparkman of 29 Glen Court a variance variance from the Municipal Code that requires projects that do either major remodels when the panel is replaced or relocated to underground their
01:06:05.89 Robert Forsyth Yeah.
01:06:06.03 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
01:06:32.01 Todd T. Chow The ordinance has a provision in it to grant exceptions to the ordinance, and the ordinance forms a committee to review these hearings or these cases, and that's what happened in June.

So.

Here's a picture of Glen Court. The picture on the left is halfway down the hill. Glen Court kind of loops around from Glen Drive up to kind of like mid-slope and then goes across then intersects with Rose and then Rose goes back down. This is the picture on the left is looking uphill and then the picture on the right is looking from 29 Glen Court down. There are It's going to work.
01:07:29.05 Todd T. Chow There we go.

There are a couple of polls. This poll is next to 27, and this is next to 17. We'll get into that a little bit later.

So a synopsis. Mr. Sparkman was, purchased his house in, I'm not sure if it was 2010 or 2011. It was a fixer-upper. He He did a remodel.

That remodel was subject to design review and administrative design review and he had several conditions to comply with both as a condition and as a notification he was advised that he needed to underground if he relocated the panel. He was and so he did. So in June the Underground Committee approved the variance request. The approval waived the requirements of the municipal code. It requires the The above ground utilities, both communication and electrical, to be relocated in July.

Robert and Brenda Feiss Forsyth.

of 27 Glen Court appealed this decision.

Oh man, it didn't come out so it doesn't come out so nicely on the screen. So this was supposed to be a map showing all the streets. It doesn't come out very well, but this is 29 Glen Court. These are the two poles. The lot here is 27. There's another lot here, 25. Another lot here, 17. And another lot, 37.

Um, These are the poles in particular. This is next to 27. This is on the east side of 27. This is on the northerly side.

of It looks like it's right next to 17, but from a right-of-way standpoint, this poll appears to be located within a public easement on 25 Glen Court.
01:09:43.34 Todd T. Chow As I just mentioned, James Sparkman performed a major remodel.

A design review permit was granted on January 4th by the Zoning Administrator.

As I mentioned, a condition of approval and advisory were included.

Thank you.

The dilemma with this case is that 29 Glen Court does not front on a public right of way.

While he has a driveway access to it, there was some uncertainty whether or not that right extended towards utilities. He sought to get...

facilities to power poles, he would have to cross other private property.
01:10:38.47 Todd T. Chow To get to the polls, since there are two polls, there are a couple of design options that could be approached. But he would have to get a private access even over 27 Glencourt, and he'd have to get a utility easement over the public access easement over 25 and 21 Glencourt.

Mr. Sparkman retained an attorney to advise him on how best to deal with this. The attorney advised that an explicit easement should be created for placement of the utilities as well as operations and maintenance. So Mr. Sparkman engaged conversations with the property owners. I guess he's here. He can go into more detail of who he described. But here's 29 Glen Court. Here's 27 Glen Court, 25, 17, and 21. Now, if you drive up Glen Court, it looks like a public street, and it's maintained as a public street. But when you parse it, The northerly part of Glencore, right as it turns a corner, is not public. It is a public access easement.

The land rights belong to the adjacent lots. So to get power to Mr. Sparksman's house, he would have to go across 27 and then 25 to the pole here.

Um, To get to the other power pole, Mr. Sparkman would need to get an easement across 27 along the driveway easement and then arguably a little bit further over to the pole.

As anybody who has to do undergrounding finds out, they have to work with PG&E to develop plans.

He did that.

While PG&E was developing plans, Mr. Sparkman engaged with owners of 27 and 25 Glen Court.

Um, Thank you.

He didn't have to, but 37 Glen Court also takes power from some of these polls and while Mr. Sparkman didn't need to get an easement from from 37 Glencore Uh, there was some outreach to see if there was any interest in doing a, you know, joining in on a project.

Staff is unsure whether or not 17 was contacted similarly.

After several meetings, verbally, an agreement was reached on PG&E suggested design. And here we go.

Um...

This was the PG&E suggested design. It goes from 29 down the driveway, and down to the public access. Connects in with 37, connects in with 27, connects in with 25.

To comply with the undergrounding requirement, a minimum compliant project, Mr. Sparkman could just go from his panel down the driveway to the pole that's located on the Forsyth property.

Mr. Sparkman authorized his attorney to draft a four-party agreement involving 25, 27, 29, and 37 Glencourt.

And in the packet there's also a three-party agreement. It's interesting that the Thank you.

I didn't catch this nuance and perhaps I'm error in my interpretation, but while the agreement involves four parties, the easement involves a three-party agreement or a two-party agreement.

Four-party agreement were presented to the property owners are 25, 27, 29, and 37 Glen Mr. Sparkman had a goal to move into his home in August.

There's a significant amount of lead time to get authorizations and work with PG&E. So he presented these documents to them in late April or early May and asked that they consider them and execute them as soon as they could.

Time elapsed and May was coming and going and he didn't get...

executed agreements back. So at the end of May, Mr. Sparkman decided to submit an application to the Undergrounding Committee to consider a variance. And that was done on May 24th.

Utility Underground Committee was convened on June 11th to consider it. And a meeting agenda was posted on June 7th, which is typical, the Friday before Um, And then they had their meeting.

Now, the Undergrounding Committee has adopted guidelines to define how to grant an exception or a variance or a waiver, depending on what word you want to use.

The hardship finding standards, there are actually two. One is the underground costs shouldn't exceed 1% of the market value of the property.

And the second is that the undergrounding costs shouldn't exceed 10% of the remodel costs.

Mr. Sparkman provided evidence related to his project costs, and it appeared that financial hardship existed. The undergrounding estimates came to a total of $41,000. The market value of his house and the market value or the estimate to do his remodel was together was $1.5 million, so that 41 percent or 41,000 remodeling or 1% of the project value or the market value of the house is $15,000. So the underground costs were roughly two and a half times beyond the standard.

So the committee could make a finding based on financial hardship. At the time, they couldn't find the hardship on remodel costs just considering the $41,000 and the $54,000 or $547,000. But they found one, so if it meets one of the two, it meets the standard. The guidelines that the Underground Committee have really don't consider easement issues, but they recognize that if they don't have legal right across a third party, they're in a dilemma. So the Underground Committee approved the variance.

A month later, shortly after the agreement or after the hearing, The Forsyth contacted staff about the action and what was going to be done. Your packet has a number of email dialogue about that.

They ultimately decided to submit an appeal, and their rationale was they didn't believe a two-party agreement to get from Mr. Sparksman's
01:18:36.58 Patricia DeLuca agreement.
01:18:39.90 Todd T. Chow panel to the pole along in front of the Forsyth's property wasn't explored fully.

and they thought that the costs might be quite a bit lower than the $41,000 if that option was considered further. The submitted documents that the committee that the committee saw suggested that they did consider three-party agreements, why they stalled, and I don't know if they were presented in April. I guess the Forsyth's and the Sparkman's can go into more detail about that, but your packet has two sets of agreements, a four-party and a three-party. So staff recommends that you take comment from the Forsythes, Mr. Sparkman, and any undergrounding committee members who are present as well as the public. You weigh the materials presented, and then you make direction.

The staff believes these are the available alternatives. You could make findings to uphold the appeal. You could make findings to deny the appeal. You could determine that there's not enough information, or you could determine that the Underground Committee didn't consider the issue enough and remand it back to them for further consideration. Or you could continue the item. You know, the Unmissable Code doesn't have a lot of Um, guidance or process. So, you know, there's never been an appeal in the last seven years here. So, kind of a bit of open territory is how the process goes. So with that, I'll leave this slide up, but it'll conclude my comments. If you have questions, I'll be happy to answer them, that the Forsyth and the Sparkman might
01:20:42.82 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

I do. Does anybody else have a question?
01:20:45.03 Todd T. Chow I'm sorry.
01:20:46.78 Unknown Thank you.

to do.
01:20:47.14 Mayor Kelly Okay.

Thank you.
01:20:48.30 Unknown Thank you.
01:20:48.35 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

That's great.
01:20:48.86 Unknown Do we have the costs for running, for undergrounding from 29 to 27?

Uh,
01:21:01.65 Todd T. Chow I don't know.
01:21:01.92 Unknown anywhere.

Thank you.
01:21:04.18 Todd T. Chow Can you reference a page?
01:21:08.13 Unknown No, this was not.
01:21:09.78 Todd T. Chow OK. Mr. Sparkman has that. He didn't present that at the time in June.
01:21:11.94 Unknown Thank you.

He's not.
01:21:17.97 Todd T. Chow but he has that information. So he can present that to you momentarily.
01:21:20.10 Unknown So you can...
01:21:22.51 Mayor Kelly Can we wait until he testifies?
01:21:24.23 Unknown Yes, and I have a second question.
01:21:24.26 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
01:21:25.83 Todd T. Chow Go ahead.
01:21:27.03 Unknown There was mention that the meeting was not noticed.
01:21:34.79 Todd T. Chow The regulations for noticing is that we post it, and the legal mandate, it was posted more than 24 hours in advance, so we met the legal standard. It's not nearly as robust as what is typically done in, like, a Planning Commission review. There's not a 300-foot notice process or requirement. So the committee basically listened to Mr. Sparkman,
01:22:05.19 Unknown Thank you.
01:22:06.27 Mayor Kelly Any more questions? Okay. I have a couple.

Do we know why? I'm going to ask him, but do we know, does the city know why these agreements didn't Is there one holdout or two holdouts?

Uh,
01:22:20.17 Todd T. Chow Thank you.
01:22:20.27 Mayor Kelly you
01:22:20.86 Todd T. Chow No.
01:22:21.35 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

No, no. Okay. And then if using that two-finding thing, the 1% of the sale price or the value of the home or the 10% of the remodel, 10% of the remodel is 50 grand if you have a $500,000 remodel. Did I read it correctly?
01:22:36.83 Todd T. Chow Could be, yeah. Okay, so, yeah.
01:22:37.47 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Okay, so it met that test, it just didn't meet the 1% test. Those are incongruent.
01:22:42.78 Todd T. Chow Those are incongruent. It meant the 1% test, it didn't meet the 10% test.
01:22:47.78 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Excuse me.
01:22:48.79 Todd T. Chow It didn't meet the 10% test. The underground and cost estimates that were submitted were 41,000. Correct. It would have needed to be over 50,000 to meet the 10% test.
01:22:55.96 Mayor Kelly for a while.
01:22:59.91 Mayor Kelly Oh, that's what I meant. Yeah. I'm sorry. It did not meet the test. The other one did meet the test. But those are incongruent in some way. They shouldn't be either or because they're not an either or. Okay. So that's an interesting issue. All right. And then I'll wait to ask the questions of the others. Okay.
01:23:21.48 Unknown Thank you.
01:23:21.49 Unknown Thank you.
01:23:21.55 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Which routing did the
01:23:22.37 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
01:23:25.75 Unknown Did the...

I'm assuming the routing that came up with this estimate, 45,000 is the one that went to, wait, the one on the left. Is that correct? Correct. This is the 41,000. And in that design, were the other residences, who was paying for the interconnects to the other? Not disclosed.
01:23:35.20 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.

Correct.
01:23:37.20 Todd T. Chow Disgusting the $41,000.
01:23:38.69 Patricia DeLuca Yeah.
01:23:48.81 Todd T. Chow Thank you.
01:23:48.83 Unknown Thank you.
01:23:48.86 Todd T. Chow Thank you.
01:23:48.88 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
01:23:48.98 Unknown Thank you.
01:23:49.00 Todd T. Chow Thank you.
01:23:49.02 Unknown Thank you.
01:23:49.17 Todd T. Chow Thank you.
01:23:49.54 Mayor Kelly And then the minimum compliant project, was there a number for that one?
01:23:53.84 Todd T. Chow How was that submitted?
01:23:55.40 Mayor Kelly It was not submitted.
01:23:56.26 Todd T. Chow i think that's what he's going to get
01:23:57.42 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
01:24:01.23 Todd T. Chow I, It's hard to say what motivates PGE's design efforts, but I do know that. I can speak to that. Yes, I can too.
01:24:08.05 Mayor Kelly No, exactly.
01:24:08.61 Unknown Thank you.
01:24:08.66 Unknown Thank you.
01:24:10.53 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
01:24:10.55 Unknown Yes, I can too.
01:24:14.45 Todd T. Chow I'm going to speculate here, but because the pole is located more or less within the Glen Court space, this would typically be their franchise area and that they would have normal processes for maintenance and operations. If the larger neighborhood ever undergrounded, it would be very consistent to tie this into an underground main. With this minimum compliant, there would need to be a bit of rerouting of the facility to get it to work with a larger undergrounding. So short term, this is a little bit lower cost, but there's cost now and then there's cost in the future.
01:24:52.67 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
01:25:02.39 Todd T. Chow This is a little bit higher cost, but the future costs, I think these parties, if they have participated, would be immune.
01:25:09.75 Mayor Kelly And that's the $41,000 one.
01:25:11.55 Todd T. Chow Thank you.
01:25:11.76 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Thank you.
01:25:13.12 Unknown One more question regarding me. Did I hear you say that the poll next to 17, or there about, was on public property in the public right-of-way?
01:25:26.47 Todd T. Chow No, it's a public access easement. It's very interesting how that worked. The driveway from Glen Court to Mr. Sparkman is over a private access easement. Mr. Sparkman has rights across that, but technically nobody else does. But Mr. Sparkman and the general public have the right to drive over the portion of Glen Court that's on 25 and 21.
01:25:34.08 Lars Jensen that.
01:25:46.23 Unknown Thank you.
01:25:59.33 Unknown Todd, can you flip back to the pictures in the beginning? In that design on the left, does that remove any pole at all, or does it just underground to a pole?
01:26:08.24 Unknown just underground.
01:26:09.55 Unknown Okay. And the poll that it goes to, can you just point that one out again? Oops. Debbie, can you help them out?
01:26:23.36 Unknown or Debbie's trying to help you out. You guys are fighting.
01:26:29.14 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
01:26:29.36 Unknown I thought they were one of those.

Thank you.
01:26:35.22 Unknown No, no, no, it's a photo.

that one.
01:26:42.02 Unknown So the one on the right is 23rd, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd, 24th, 23rd
01:26:45.40 Unknown This is 27. Right. And the other one's... And this is 17.
01:26:46.36 Unknown Right.

Thank you.
01:26:56.68 Mayor Kelly Okay, any more questions?

Thank you, Todd. Stand by. I would suggest, Mr. Partland, you speak next if you would like.
01:27:06.98 Unknown Thank you.
01:27:07.06 Mayor Kelly you
01:27:07.37 Unknown Thank you.
01:27:08.31 Mary Wagner Thank you.

Typically the appellant, but you can...
01:27:11.35 Mayor Kelly Well, he-
01:27:12.58 Mary Wagner Thank you.
01:27:12.70 Mayor Kelly It's...
01:27:12.95 Mary Wagner It's up to you guys. Typically you take the appellate, then the applicant.
01:27:13.61 Mayor Kelly Okay. Does the appellate have any difficulty with Mr. Sparkman going first?

Okay, great. Mr. Sparrowman, I think you would inform it from your point of view and then they can.

Thank you.

Thank you.

10 minutes, okay.
01:27:25.42 James Sparkman Amen.

All right, one eye.
01:27:40.12 James Sparkman Well, good evening. Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council, collective members of the City staff, thank you for your time. This is not exactly how I expected to first see the City Council. I do want to thank the collective colored works team for helping us with this project. It's been a year and a half and they've actually been very professional. Ms. Wagner, I apologize for having you. I am, as I mentioned, James Barkman. I'm a small business owner. I have a small business owner. I have offices on Gate 5 Road. I've lived in town for 12 years. In 2009, after renting here for nine years, I purchased my first home, this bungalow, up on 29 Glen Court. My home had one owner for 60- years and frankly the house is falling apart. My now wife and I began our renovation project in September of 2011 and completed work and moved back to our home this past August just prior to our wedding. Undergrounding the utilities was a condition of our renovation project, a condition we accepted and frankly at the beginning, and I still completely respect the concept.
01:27:50.99 Unknown Thank you.
01:28:51.48 James Sparkman We began work on this immediately following the receipt of our permits in September 2011. We reached out to PG&E, paying them for their design. We actually installed, first thing we did was when we installed the electrical system, it was actually built to underground.
01:29:09.29 James Sparkman Now, the problem is, as mentioned, our lot is surrounded on all sides by private property. And we're required to get signed easement agreements from neighbors to access any power source. Now, PG&E did come up with this ideal plan, and it really benefited all. The fact is, actually, that that poll would have come down.

And so for seven months, we worked to build a coalition and uh...

I mean, I thought it was actually working pretty well. It was a multi-part agreement. My contractor and I, though, spent considerable time on this. We spent literally hundreds of hours. We held dozens of meetings with neighbors. I've been in my neighbor's living rooms a lot. I've gotten to know them pretty well, maybe more than we should have initially. But I've exchanged countless emails, and at the time of my appeal, I had spent $5,700 in legal fees drafting and re-dapting easement agreements with my neighbors. In May, as mentioned, with two months before we were scheduled to move back into our home, we still didn't have any signed easement agreements, and we applied for and received a variance. The details of why that wasn't signed are long and sorted and not a great story here. And there were multiple interests, lots of, and it didn't end well. I think we can move on. I mean, if we want to get there, we can. But my neighbors have brought this appeal, as far as I can understand, because they're unhappy that my power lines had not come down. And they have claimed that the underground committee didn't discuss the options very less than their power. Well, there are a number of legitimate reasons this option was really not viable. And we frankly felt it wasn't really worthy of discussion at the time. You know, I'd also add that there were other there were other options. If you look at my lot here, we could have gone up to Santa Rosa, and it's 450 feet, and again, required new neighborhood. Again, this is now end of April. I'm supposed to move in in August. Actually, July 1 was our move-in, our technical move-in date. We could have tried going down to Rose Court and again, neighbor agreements. At this point, we'd spent seven months, almost six grand on this. PG&E has given us one option. We're now starting from scratch.
01:31:11.48 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
01:31:35.51 James Sparkman So it simply was not brought up at the meeting. To me, none of the options we explored, including the one next door, was viable. There are other reasons why the one next door is not viable, and I'm going to say this quite clearly. One, the issue of timing. This was never presented until the end of April as a legitimate option. Two, as PG&E had never discussed it, we didn't even know if it was technically feasible. And we'd be starting with PG&E from scratch. Third, and this is frankly a considerable consideration, when they actually proposed it, wanted it buried to our line with these conditions. One of them was repave our driveway.

We have a shared driveway. Well, we had looked into this at one point. This is $65,000.

job to excavate and repave a driveway. And finally, I'll be honest, at this point, at the end of April 2011, my relationships with my neighbor, particularly the neighbor in question here, it was at an all-time low. I will say there's a history here, I think the documents in the packet show it, of manipulating this process, my permit process, to get something for themselves. I don't know if I want to go too far into that, but it hasn't been tasteful. And frankly, it never felt like the negotiation. It always felt like a negotiation. And at this point, I felt like I was going to get taken over a barrel with two months to move in. Anyways, we applied for variance. Now, the interesting thing is since Since that time, we have explored this, after getting a variance, we explored this option very thoroughly. And we've discovered, while it's technically viable, the costs, even without repaving the driveway, are prohibitive. Following this discovery, we reapplied, actually, for a waiver.

and this time due solely on the cost of undergrounding the power source to the Forsyth, my neighbor's property. On July 13th, the city reaffirmed our waiver purely on the basis of this financial hardship. And so really, this is where we are today. We've had detailed financial projections about the option to go with the short route, the alternative route. We went down the long path, it failed.

The short path, we looked at that. The numbers are off the chart.

Okay?

As mentioned, due to our lack of direct access to the power, the Underground Aquile Lines is uniquely challenging. And there are these waiver guidelines in place, as far as I can tell, to protect homeowners who, even with the best intentions, face the possibility of runaway costs and out-of-control timelines. It seems like our project was exactly the kind of case that these waivers are in place to protect. You know, as I say in it, we talked about the hardship provisions. I won't repeat that, but as you see on this piece of paper, the barrier poll at 27, 227 Glen Court, given we've already spent 11,000 on undergrounding our power, and it would cost an additional all-in 40,000, we're talking almost 51,000 now, Um, of all in to bury our power lines. At this point, this represents, again, according to our assessed value right now, that's 5% of our property value. This is $50,000 at this point.

Now, since we've received our waiver, we've actually complied with all the city's requirements regarding our power. We've reinstalled the power lines in a way that's actually better than they ever were before, from the perspective of the Forsyth property. The line, while it never blocked their view, we actually put six feet higher. It was attached to the middle house. We actually put a pole up on the roof, and we raised it six feet above the roof.

to make their view better.

We've also elected not to have AT&T service at our house. So instead of two lines, there's only one. The angle of the line is...

It does not go over any structure. It doesn't go over their deck. It doesn't go over the house. The line runs over a private driveway with only two users. And there's no safety issues with this at all. My neighbors, there's two other neighbors. It's a dead-end street, and this is a private driveway. There's only two people who see this, us and my neighbor. The other two neighbors below, I actually talked to them today about this. One offered to call in. He's actually Jim Plumlee, who is my neighbor, and he was going to call in on this, and I said, you know, don't bother. But they have no issue with this at all, and frankly, they find this whole thing a little bizarre. I've got to get to my final points here. The reason we're here today is not because I've done anything detrimental to my neighbor's property.

This is actually about an expectation my neighbor had when he bought this property 12 months ago. He came in expecting that this project would not only take down my wire, but take down the pole in front of his house.

This was a clear and marked expectation. He hasn't done any effort to mask that from the get-go. That's what this is about. And I believe, and I say this sincerely, I think there's been a real attempt to manipulate my construction project to improve his property value. Now, I do take some offense to the accusations that, you know, in some way I've tried to skirt the conditions of this renovation purpose. You know, I think the facts speak to themselves in terms of the time, the energy, the money we've spent to make this work. There were actually 58 conditions associated with this project. That's above and beyond my architectural plans. You know, put in sprinklers, sewer lateral, put in, you know, guardrails on outside, you name it, 58 of these. We've complied with all of these.

And I would say that all the ones that have been in with our control, and we've earnestly tried to meet this underground requirement. Hundreds of hours, dozens of meetings, thousands of dollars. I can honestly, honestly say that my contractor, myself, my wife, we've spent more time and more energy on this single part of our project than anything else in the past year and a half construction. Guaranteed, we've spent more time on this. Now the litmus test of this, and I'll sort of leave on this, is that if this were within my control, if for some reason I had direct access to a power pole, if I had an easement right or somehow I didn't have to get these seven months of easement negotiation, I guarantee you this would have been done. There's no questions asked, and I think anybody who knows I'm sorry this has been a complex process. I think these waiver laws are in place to protect people, to provide a reasonable cap to the time and money that we spend on these things. I think we clearly meet these provisions and I think the Planning Commission's waiver has been just. Thanks.
01:38:46.24 Mayor Kelly Okay. Could you stay there just a minute? We'll go ahead and ask questions. Any questions?
01:38:48.08 Unknown Thank you.
01:38:48.10 James Sparkman Yeah.
01:38:48.15 Unknown Thank you.
01:38:51.64 Unknown Yes, just your last thing. The Planning Commission's waiver. Did you go before planning as well in terms of... I don't know, sir. I...
01:38:53.84 Mayor Kelly And- Thank you.
01:38:59.47 James Sparkman Bye.

The underground. The underground committee, okay.
01:39:01.06 Unknown Underground committee, okay, all right.
01:39:04.50 James Sparkman But I believe, I mean, maybe I don't know my terms, but we went before the Underground Committee. Yes. We received a waiver. Yes. We then went back after this kind of hubbub started, and it was reaffirmed. There was an email exchange where I said, hey, I want to reapply purely on a financial basis, okay, because we just got the numbers, and it was reaffirmed. And that's when they, you know, we put the power, we moved back in.
01:39:09.94 Unknown Yeah.
01:39:10.31 Unknown Thank you.
01:39:11.52 Unknown Yes.
01:39:22.81 Stacy We just,
01:39:29.75 Unknown Did any of the neighbors show up at the meeting with the undergrounding committee? Or maybe there's someone from the committee here who can...

Thank you.
01:39:40.14 James Sparkman No. Not at the time, no. It was my contractor, my wife and I.
01:39:40.18 Unknown No.
01:39:43.74 Unknown But the neighbors were aware of the process and what you were doing.
01:39:47.74 James Sparkman To be honest, I'm not entirely sure.
01:39:51.03 Unknown OK?

Um, Okay, no, that's fine. Thank you.
01:39:57.32 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor, I have a question. When you applied for the waiver, did you notify your neighbors that you were applying for
01:40:05.15 James Sparkman I did not.
01:40:05.54 Councilmember Pfeiffer When you applied for the second time you applied for the waiver, did you notify your neighbors that you were applying for the second waiver?
01:40:12.46 James Sparkman No. Weaver? Okay. I did not. Okay. I mean, to be honest, I hate to say this. I mean, we...
01:40:13.35 Councilmember Pfeiffer OK.

OK.

Yeah.
01:40:21.50 James Sparkman I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but we felt like our process was being usurped. I was actually, it was, and frankly, I felt like we were being bullied at this point to meet their ends. I was frankly scared at one point to have real conversations because I thought that they were going to somehow use everything against me. We were trying to move in. We were trying to bring a closure to this. We spent all this time and money. I'll be honest, the level of trust to this day is not great. It's unfortunate. I think we, many, if you look at those packets and you look at the attempts and from trying to repave the drive to prevent us from putting a water line in, the number of emails to the City Planning Commission, to Todd, it's a little, it was scary stuff. I mean, it was not, I don't think we felt like we could be completely open book at the I mean, it doesn't change, I think, where we are. I mean, you know, I think this cost to do this is crazy. And again, it doesn't mean our intent wasn't to underground our power from the get-go. It wasn't there. I mean, we really did. We came in. I thought we were going to end this project by giving something to my neighbors. We're going to come in. We're going to bury the 17. All of you can join in. Seven months of this, and it turns into neighbor hating neighbor. I mean, there's this whole exercise where the Forsyth State Paladins here were cutting down their hedge, and all this went, whoa. And they sent a letter to us extorting everybody, saying, we won't cut down the hedge if all of you by Friday sign agreements to underground your power so we can get rid of our coal.

It was like the language being used, the screaming. I mean, this was nuts.

This was not a way I expected this to end. So sorry.
01:42:31.10 Mayor Kelly OK, any more questions? I have a couple questions.

What was in the agreement? Was it just merely an easement and no dollars? You were putting all the money up? Or were other people putting up money as well?
01:42:44.22 James Sparkman So what I had proposed from the get-go, the idea was that I was going to dig this main trench. And this is what I wrote to all of them. There's emails that bear about us. Down to 17. And what I was saying is, this is your opportunity to participate for pennies on the dollar. I also agreed as part of this that, you know what? I'm going to coordinate this, and I will pay the legal fees, which I was doing. And so we went down this path and everyone was like,
01:43:14.35 Mayor Kelly but in the agreement that you put in front of people to sign,
01:43:17.17 James Sparkman Yeah.
01:43:17.54 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Was it merely an agreement for an easement?

Or was there money? Did they have to pay money as well?
01:43:24.77 Unknown You were paying all the money?
01:43:25.02 Mayor Kelly You were paying all the money.

All right.
01:43:28.48 Mayor Kelly And then the PG&E agreement, is that the agreement that this estimate represents?
01:43:36.86 James Sparkman This is the other one. So we went down this path, looked at the long road, and then came back and said, all right, we need to take a hard look at this as a realistic option. To be honest, when the Forsyth's lives are complaining, I'll be honest, this is, full disclosure on this, I said, you know what, there's a letter that says this. I said, hey, listen, if the Forsyth's are willing to give me free access to their poll, meaning not pay their drive, I'm game to do it. And PT&E says, this is a viable option. I can give you a quote on this. This is an email to Ty. Go ahead. This is great. I actually said, I think this is a win-win for us.
01:44:16.59 Mayor Kelly So this is the dotted line.
01:44:18.16 James Sparkman This is the dotted line one. I said, let's do it. Because at this point, I said, you know what? We've been granted. The leverage situation is strong. We're going to have city oversight over the conversation. It will be totally rational. I said, I am game to do this. Let's try again. And then I got the numbers.
01:44:18.83 Mayor Kelly on the dotted line.
01:44:19.85 Unknown Thank you.
01:44:19.93 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
01:44:19.96 Patricia DeLuca Let's do it, because at this point I said,
01:44:32.35 Mayor Kelly Okay.
01:44:33.46 James Sparkman I do, I do.
01:44:34.04 Unknown I do. I do. Were your neighbors asking for reimbursement for the easement you Were they asking you to pay them?
01:44:44.72 James Sparkman Well, not to, well, let's put it this way. The conversations have a variety of responses, right? So I talked to, I mean, this was at one point between four people. Now, when it came to the appellant here, my conversation with them, where it started was, and again, remember, they bought this house in the middle of my negotiation. So it started with their previous owners. Their realtors then got involved. And this became a whole game about, you know, can we get rid of the pole and the house will now be worth more? Yeah. So there was an attempt to get the pole down before the deal or sign an agreement between us all so the price could go up. And then I was like, you know what? Forget this. I'm going to wait and negotiate with the new neighbor because he's going to live there forever. He's not going to bend me over. He's not going to treat me badly because we're going to live together.
01:45:16.38 Patricia DeLuca Yeah.
01:45:35.36 James Sparkman And then I realized, my first conversation with him started with, please pay to take down our coal. We got off that. And it ended with, please repave our driveway.
01:45:47.93 Unknown Mm.

Thank you.
01:45:48.52 James Sparkman Okay.
01:45:48.64 Unknown Thank you.

The other neighbors were not asking for money. Okay. Thank you.
01:45:53.35 Mayor Kelly Okay, thank you very much. Mr. Forsythe, Mrs. Forsythe or whomever.
01:46:08.40 Robert Forsyth Good evening, Mr. Mayor and Council Members. I'm the scary guy from 27. Just before I get on to the actual process here, I'd like to point out that Mr. Sparkle talked about levels of screaming going on. On two separate occasions, he showed up at our door. I wasn't there on the first occasion, but he did a fair amount of ranting and raving at my wife. Despite that, we tried to get things back on an even footing after that. But I think it's fair to say that after we started taking steps to renovate our garden area, he went into what can only be described as a sulk, and since then has never corresponded with us. I make no secret of the fact that when we bought the place, we had a reasonable expectation of the power pole being capable of being removed
01:46:14.39 Unknown Thank you.
01:47:05.83 Robert Forsyth Somewhere in the packet of documents there's an email from me following the last altercation that we had on our doorstep wherein I told Mr. Sparkman that I had and would not stand in his way of getting any agreement for easement for bearing of power cables. I think if you read that carefully, you'll see that we did it. At no stage did we say you must repay the drive-in. What I asked was, could you please give us some indication of what your plans are for remediation of the driveway? Continued access for ourselves and another neighbour. And that was it. But we heard nothing back from that other than a fairly terse email which said, you know, thank you for your involvement in my affairs. Don't contact my contractor because I've taken the liberty of copying his contract.
01:47:29.66 Patricia DeLuca No,
01:48:00.81 Robert Forsyth But just from a procedural point of view, I think it's fair to say that Mr. Sparkman had known since January 2011 that undergrounding of his utilities was required. During the space of the time that we moved in, there was one further variance to his remodel, wherein he, I think, sought to change the roof line where he installed expensive skylights. So I think it's It's fair to say that having been in possession of the fact that he was required to do this, where he could have made some withholding to his expenditure to then get to the end of the process and plead poverty, makes a mockery of the planning procedure, in my opinion. As I've said, we have never made any statement which said that we would withhold agreement. In fact, before we bought the place, the realtor there advised us that this undergrounding was mandated and in fact we could use that as some sort of leverage. Although even before we bought the place, I sent an email to Mr. Sparkman and the other neighbor on Glen Court explaining that I wasn't planning on using any sort of leverage that way. In fact, we'd sort of tried to seek agreement because it was to our benefit, all of our benefit. I think in one, the final draft of the tripartite agreement that was circulated by Mr. Sparkman, there was a clear statement in there that we would be responsible for the cost associated with the removal of the power pull from our property. I think there are other There are other neighbours who are interested in undergrounding. Mr Plumlee, who's in the adjacent property, I can't remember the number, he has said that he would be interested in doing that. And he has also told me, I haven't spoken to the other neighbours, but he tells me that the other neighbours would be interested in doing that. But I think if you look at the documents, you'll see that we quite clearly stated that we would have no objection to Mr. Sparkman undergrounding his cables to our pole if he couldn't get agreement to take it anywhere else. And also, this has never been an attempt on our part to have someone else pay for resurfacing of our driveway. We're prepared to pay or share equitably in the costs associated with remediating the driveway. And as I said, we were prepared to pay for the removal of the pollen.

I think that's as much as I have to say on this note.

Thank you.
01:50:56.38 Mayor Kelly OK, we have questions.
01:51:00.71 Unknown In your mind, Did you Regardless of what your expectation was, did you have a conversation with Mr. Sparkman about, hey, my goal is to get this poll down for whatever reason, whether it impacts your view, I'm not sure, I'm inside your house.

I'll pay for that cost if you pay for running the line down to my poll.

where the poll used to be. Did that sort of meeting of the mines, where there was shared costs there?
01:51:32.99 Robert Forsyth It was beyond that. I mean, we'd said we would pay for the removal of the pole, but we'd also share the costs of whatever, you know, providing our lateral connection to the underground cables there. Sure. And whatever the, I mean, it's a joint easement, a shared easement. So, I mean, everyone is jointly responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of that. So, I mean, any other agreement wasn't really necessary for that. I mean, all we were trying to do was formalize the agreement between the parties.
01:52:06.22 Robert Forsyth The reason that the tripartite thing fell apart was that the other neighbor objected to language in the document which said that he had the right and the obligation to underground his utilities. But if you read the document carefully, you'll see that Mr. Sparkle rather neatly carved out his obligation. He said he had the right at his sole discretion, whereas everybody else involved in the other parties of the agreement were obligated to do it. So he would have that in place and he could then take a decision based on whatever factors came out of it afterwards.

So, sorry, the reason it fell apart was that one neighbor said that he objected to the wording, where he wanted to have the word obligation removed. There was never any further draft of that document circulated after that, nor was there any two-party agreement, which would have been between the Sparklers and ourselves.
01:53:06.14 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Okay.
01:53:08.34 Unknown just correct me if I'm wrong. So what you're saying is you would have been, regardless you know, who's who's who or you know, he said, she said, so we'll never get to the bottom of the truth of what happened. But the at one point in time, in a reasonable point in time, not in July, Was there would you have been willing to pay for your connection and the poll to come down?
01:53:31.93 Robert Forsyth Absolutely.

THE END OF THE END OF THE
01:53:33.77 Unknown was always a
01:53:34.29 Robert Forsyth Thank you.
01:53:34.46 Unknown Thank you.
01:53:38.27 Unknown Thank you.
01:53:38.29 Unknown Thank you.
01:53:42.34 Unknown So if you were willing to pay for it, the poll to come down, and for your portion of the undergrounding, And the other people were willing pay for the same, which it sounds like was the case. It was a matter of the wording in the contract then.

that said that you were obligated to go forward with the undergrounding and that Mr. Sparkman did not have to pay for his
01:54:19.89 Robert Forsyth No, that's not the case. I mean, we were expecting everyone to share it.
01:54:22.86 Unknown Thank you.
01:54:22.91 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Thank you.
01:54:23.60 Unknown Okay, well, so what was the objection about the wording? That he was obligated and Mr. Smartman was not obligated?
01:54:31.16 Robert Forsyth So basically he would have a three-party agreement, which would have basically us and the other neighbor on the hook to underground if he then chose to do it. He wasn't similarly obligated. That's the wording in the draft of the agreement.
01:54:47.27 Unknown Okay.
01:54:50.06 Adam Politzer Thank you.

Thank you.
01:54:54.56 Unknown Yeah.
01:54:55.51 Robert Forsyth One other thing to point out regarding having to have these things in place. Whilst we were overseas on leave, Mr. Sparkman did in fact dig up the driveway to put in a water line or something like that. He didn't advise us that that was going to happen. The remediation of that was quite frankly unsightly and untidy.
01:54:55.54 Adam Politzer Thank you.
01:54:55.66 Unknown Thank you.
01:55:12.81 Unknown Thank you.
01:55:21.43 Unknown Thank you.
01:55:21.45 Robert Forsyth But we didn't lodge any or take any legal action to say that you violated your rights in doing this. We weren't trying, nor are we still trying to stand in anyone's way to get power lands underground.
01:55:21.56 Unknown Okay.
01:55:37.09 Unknown Do you see any way of making this happen going forward?
01:55:42.15 Robert Forsyth I think what would have to happen is a substantial change in the relationship between the Sparkmans and ourselves. And if I can be the first to stand here and say I'm happy to sort of extend a hand of friendship and start again, I'm happy to do so.
01:55:58.10 Mayor Kelly And you'd pay your share? Absolutely. And the other neighbors would too? You think the other neighbor would pay his share?
01:56:00.48 Robert Forsyth Thank you.
01:56:00.50 Unknown Yeah.
01:56:00.63 Robert Forsyth Yeah.
01:56:00.75 Unknown whether you're not going to be
01:56:01.04 Robert Forsyth You think your other neighbor In fact, I offered to pay his share Thank you.
01:56:06.35 Mayor Kelly Oh, okay.
01:56:09.34 Unknown Thank you.
01:56:09.39 Robert Forsyth THE FAMILY IS
01:56:09.46 Unknown Thank you.
01:56:11.35 Mayor Kelly And the contract, if the contract were drawn in a different way and that obligation went out, would that make a difference?
01:56:20.86 Robert Forsyth Thank you.
01:56:20.88 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
01:56:20.93 Robert Forsyth Um...
01:56:22.11 Mayor Kelly and all the people would come to the city. It depends how much you trust me to pay. Everybody would come to City Hall and sign that contract.
01:56:23.07 Robert Forsyth It depends how much you trust me to pay.

Look, if there's some way of doing it, fine.
01:56:29.60 Mayor Kelly Okay. All right. Any more questions? Mr. Forsyte? You'll get your chance. Any more questions to Mr. Forsyte?

OK, thank you for now.

Thank you.
01:56:41.47 Unknown Right.
01:56:41.74 Mayor Kelly All right. I'll give you some rebuttal time. What, three minutes of rebuttal time? Come to the podium.
01:56:46.28 Unknown Thank you.
01:56:46.31 Unknown Thank you.

I'll put the podium.

The President. The President. If we ask him a question, he can answer the question.
01:56:51.59 Mayor Kelly Do you want to give him time or you want to ask? He wants to talk, so let's get him.
01:56:53.69 Unknown HE WAS A LITTLE BIT OF THE So let's get...
01:56:57.50 Mayor Kelly Yeah, but why don't you, rebuttal, three, five. You've got five minutes rebuttal time.
01:57:03.27 Unknown Do we have anyone else talking?

to this, any neighbors?
01:57:07.79 Mayor Kelly We'll get a chance in a minute. Okay. You get the testimony, testimony, testimony, and then.
01:57:09.40 Unknown Okay.

Okay.
01:57:12.37 James Sparkman Thank you.
01:57:12.45 Mayor Kelly Okay, okay, thank you.
01:57:13.02 James Sparkman Okay.
01:57:13.87 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
01:57:14.00 James Sparkman I just want to clarify how this actually works, because there's just confusion between the three-way, or actually it's a four-way agreement, and the two-way agreement. So if you don't mind.
01:57:14.05 Unknown Thank you.
01:57:14.10 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
01:57:14.27 Unknown Thank you.
01:57:30.15 Unknown Thank you.
01:57:30.19 Unknown Thank you.
01:57:30.83 Unknown Thank you.
01:57:34.96 James Sparkman Oh, which one? There you go. Oh, yeah. Just this. There you go. Perfect. All right. So here we go. This is one option right here. I can go here. It requires going across this. This is the Foresight property to go here. That's it. The pole does not come down in that case.
01:57:35.50 Unknown Thank you.

laser.
01:57:36.52 Unknown Thank you.
01:57:54.79 James Sparkman I bear 100% of the cost here and that's $51,000 all in to do this.

All right, now the second option which we've talked about, and this would not cost the forest state anything. They would get $51,000. It's 100% of benefit for them.

Now the second option here, which we talked about, is bearing, I have to go across here. Now we're going to have an agreement between this neighbor and this neighbor.

And then what we haven't discussed is we need this person here to sign off because this, while it's a public access easement, it's private property. So he needs to sign off. The reason the conversations fell apart was not because of the difference between rights and obligations with this neighbor here. That's an easy one. And I've had lots of follow-up conversations, Greg, after that. The issue here was it's very straightforward. Mr. Forsythe decided to cut down a 50-year-old Pittisporum hedge that went around this entire house. He sent an extortion letter. This neighbor here went bonkers.

bonkers. Okay? I mean, basically, you know, talking about screaming, I mean, physical, like, it was bad. Okay? This is when the conversations broke down. There was no way we were going to get access to that poll.

because he was going to block it.

He would come in here today and say, yeah, I would never have signed it. And in fact, he would be here today thinking this whole thing is crazy.

Okay?

All right, this is right now, this option is not, this is a long, complicated option, okay? Where really thing on the table is here, and that alone is $50,000 for really the benefit of one person. Again, this is not a public, I mean, I'm all for, anyway, so that's it.
01:59:44.60 Unknown $8,000 estimate, this one.
01:59:47.45 James Sparkman It includes what I previously spent.
01:59:47.58 Unknown Thank you.

No, I understand. I see the categories.

the columns here, it doesn't include taking down the poll. Is that correct? No, no, no. All it's doing is just one line.
01:59:54.76 James Sparkman No, no, no. All it's doing is one wire that I've already attached higher and is cleaner and better than it ever was, taking it down.
02:00:04.00 Unknown Right.
02:00:05.67 James Sparkman There's still this poll that all of us join to. This is about one beneficiary.
02:00:09.60 Unknown Right.
02:00:13.81 Unknown I hear you.
02:00:19.04 Mayor Kelly Do you want to say anything else?
02:00:20.07 James Sparkman No, no, sorry. Any questions? I mean, well, I will say one other thing. I must say this because, you know, you talk about the obligation, like me knowing about the obligation from the get-go. Well, I have to say this. Mr. Forsyth, you've known about this waiver process from the get-go as well. There's an email that is not in the packet, but I found in our original correspondence where Todd Heachow reached out to a realtor and there was an email that went to all of us that said, if this gets too expensive, there's a waiver process and your poll may never come down.
02:00:20.27 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Any questions?
02:00:53.95 James Sparkman Okay, this is not a big surprise at this point.
02:01:00.60 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:01:00.72 James Sparkman Thank you.
02:01:00.75 Mayor Kelly Just one more second. The same question that Carolyn asked a minute ago, I'll ask you. Is there a way to put this back together again in some form or fashion?
02:01:10.54 James Sparkman Here's the thing. The question I thought was being asked at one point was, given that Mr. Forsyth is the prime beneficiary of this situation, did he ever offer to share in the cost of this? No. He did is agree to take care of his piece of the puzzle. But I'm bearing everything. Are you following? JOHN F. No, I don't follow that. DAVID S. OK. So here we go. When we were talking about going from here all the way down to here, well, these guys have to access in the trench, to the main trench.
02:01:29.68 Mayor Kelly No, I don't follow that.
02:01:36.09 Adam Politzer Thank you.
02:01:40.06 Unknown Right.
02:01:40.49 James Sparkman He offered to dig that piece. Now to do that, he also has to take down the pole on his property. He said, I'll take down the pole. But you know what? My obligation is to bury from here to here. Now on top of this, I offered to coordinate and help everybody and pay all these legal fees to pull it all together. So nobody said, hey, we'll help you pay for this. Or when we went to- Well, let's go forward.
02:02:00.24 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:02:00.32 Unknown it.
02:02:00.49 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:02:00.52 Unknown Thank you.
02:02:06.26 Mayor Kelly Well, let's go forward. If somebody helps you pay for that and...
02:02:09.65 James Sparkman I think this is a long shot. I mean, again, where I'd like to go, here's the thing. Would I love to see that? Yeah. Do I want to have it done under the gun of my planning permit, given we've moved in and everything's done? I mean, that's, you know? And frankly, me having to pay for all this right now, I mean, it's 50, again, the numbers are,
02:02:18.50 Robert Forsyth Yeah.
02:02:28.40 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
02:02:38.86 James Sparkman Again, I don't want to claim poverty here. That's a dumb, it's not important. But these things are more expensive than you think. At the end of the project, you're not as generous as you were at the beginning. It went double. Mr. Porsey talked about expanding the scope of our project. We cut it way back. We had a garage in this. We cut that out. Look at the planning records. We significantly reduced the scope of the project.
02:02:47.35 Unknown Oh, yeah.
02:03:06.79 James Sparkman So in any case, I'm not as, I mean, but, you know, and I think the hardship rules are in place, and they're clear, and I think we trigger them, and it's 50 grand, and it's one beneficiary, and if all the neighbors want to get together, would I participate? Listen, I don't want to antagonize anybody. This has been, I mean, this neighborly relationship thing has been ridiculously stressful. Driving up our drive, we share a driveway. We're 100 feet apart. This is awful. I mean, I just got married. I mean, this is not where you want to start. Man, this is awful. So we'd love to fix it. I just don't see a quick answer.
02:03:31.04 Patricia DeLuca I'm not sure.
02:03:31.65 Unknown Thank you.
02:03:41.50 Mayor Kelly We'd love to fix it. I just don't see a quick answer. What was the total cost of your model?
02:03:46.16 Unknown So
02:03:46.50 James Sparkman something.

Well, I think it's around 500-something thousand. I mean, the main problem here, I mean, just the house, the whole house was sinking. We had to raise the house, put a new foundation in. Yeah. No, I just want to...
02:04:00.15 Mayor Kelly Yep.

No, I just want to know what the dollar number was.
02:04:02.24 James Sparkman The square footage of the house is, I think, 100 feet bigger. It's a shingled little bungalow. It's a shingled little bungalow. This is not a McMansion. This was a fix of what was busted.
02:04:10.85 Mayor Kelly in the
02:04:15.09 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:04:15.10 James Sparkman Thank you.
02:04:15.15 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:04:15.22 James Sparkman Thank you.
02:04:15.24 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:04:15.27 James Sparkman Thank you.
02:04:15.39 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:04:15.41 James Sparkman Thank you.
02:04:15.44 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:04:15.46 James Sparkman Thank you.
02:04:15.47 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:04:15.93 James Sparkman Thank you.
02:04:17.24 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor, I have a question. Do you agree? Yes. I'm just curious about, you mentioned the Pittosporum conflict with Forsyth and that 10, number 10, I guess. Did that get resolved? Is that, or is that still, is there tension there?
02:04:17.30 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:04:17.48 James Sparkman Mr. Mayor, I have...
02:04:18.22 Mayor Kelly questions.
02:04:18.56 James Sparkman Yeah.
02:04:19.34 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:04:19.37 James Sparkman Yes.
02:04:19.81 Unknown Thank you.
02:04:24.45 Unknown Thank you.
02:04:24.47 Unknown Thank you.
02:04:24.50 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
02:04:24.55 Debbie Yeah.
02:04:24.60 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:04:33.34 James Sparkman Is there tension there? I think the dust has settled on that because it means that there was about two months where it was bare, and we were all looking at the underside of this house, and that was the two months during this variance application. Now, since then, our plants have come up. I'd say people, you know, it's kind of we're trying to get back to, you know, I actually think it has calmed down. I just talked to that neighbor today. I mean, he's in a great mood. I mean, this was, and he just came back from his daughter's wedding. I think he's open, but I'll be honest. I just want to say one thing because I've learned this. Intentions are one thing, okay? Everybody thinks it's a great idea. Putting a legal document in front of some people changes the conversation, okay? And all of a sudden it becomes what seems, I mean, first of all it becomes expensive. We can pay for all of it. The legal costs start mounting and everyone wants a tweak and a revision and everyone gets scared like, what am I committing myself to long term? And I mean for, so while, if all of us were in a room we don't say yes. If all of us hadn't signed legal documents we would be here in six months.
02:04:51.01 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:05:08.95 Unknown Okay.
02:05:46.45 James Sparkman having the same conversation.

It's my bad. I mean, I love it. Unless there was a creative financing way, and then, you know, and I think there are options about this. I know there's experts at this that try to build coalitions and come up with public things. I mean, I think on our own, without some guidance and some shared skin in the game, I mean, where I'm the only one paying legal bills, is, you know, I don't think that's the answer, right? Because, again, You can make changes only one, why wouldn't you? You can make demands, why wouldn't you? I'd love to see it work out. I mean, listen, it doesn't truly affect my view, but there's a, I mean, the pole on the four sides, sure, I'd love to see that down. Would I love to see, I would have loved to see my neighbors all benefit from this project. Listen, this has been a nightmare for everybody. Construction, noise, you know, it would make great if it ended well.
02:06:19.02 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:06:19.18 Unknown Thank you.
02:06:19.22 Unknown Thank you.
02:06:19.25 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:06:19.30 Unknown We'll see you next time.
02:06:19.71 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:06:21.70 Unknown Okay.
02:06:22.12 Unknown Thank you.
02:06:22.14 Unknown Thank you.
02:06:22.15 Unknown What?
02:06:22.49 Patricia DeLuca workout. I mean, listen.
02:06:39.32 Mayor Kelly Okay, thank you very much. Mr. Forsyth, you have five minutes.
02:06:49.14 Robert Forsyth Thank you, I hope not to use five minutes. I think sort of trying to characterize what's trying to be achieved here as being all for one person's benefit misses the point that he was mandated to do this. I think you well in advance and he should have made the correct sort of withholding. We had our own legal fees associated with looking at the document. At the end, we agreed between ourselves that we'd sort of do whatever revisions we could directly between ourselves without using a law firm. And we did that, and it was only, as I said, the final wording that Mr. Fuller, in 37, I think it is, objected to. I would also like to put the record straight regarding the claim that I'm an extortionist. I mean, that was a claim that Mr. Sparman brought to my doorstep, also accusing me of being an asshole. So you can sort of understand that I was quite unhappy with his sort of approach, and that was on several times he called me that. The letter, and I'm happy to share this with you, I think I sent it to Todd. All I was trying to do was use the existence of the hedge which was really old it was dead in places it was being held together by pieces of wire and rubber holes it would have died anyway it was dead in quite a few places all I was suggesting was that even though we don't like it in fact we hate it we're prepared to keep it if it's something that we can use to effect an agreement. Now, it wasn't, you must do it by this Friday, it was an offer. And when Mr. Sparkman showed up and we were sort of trying to discuss the thing rationally, I suggested to him that, well, do you need more time? And his response to that was to sort of look at me and say, oh, so now you're trying to boss me around. All I was trying to do was negotiate a settlement.
02:06:51.50 Patricia DeLuca I think it's a good question.
02:07:30.97 Patricia DeLuca I would also.
02:08:07.22 Patricia DeLuca All I've said.
02:08:34.69 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Any other questions?
02:08:36.72 Councilmember Pfeiffer I have a question. So would you say that the neighbor at the 10 spot is amenable to discussion and working
02:08:46.06 Robert Forsyth Absolutely. In fact, one of the reasons that we didn't approach them at the start was that Mr. Sparkman sort of offered to be the broker, if you like, in trying to get all of the NERA agreements together. One could reach the conclusion that he was sort of trying to manipulate the process because there is an email in that package somewhere, or at least I have it somewhere from him, where he says, even before the hedge dispute, if I can call it that, he said, we will never get agreement from the people in that property. Happy to share that email if that will help later on. However, once we calmed things down between us and Mr. Plumley, he pointed out, in fact, if you,
02:09:03.16 Patricia DeLuca There is.
02:09:28.05 Robert Forsyth Where's the pointer?
02:09:31.90 Adam Politzer That's why we're looking forward to doubt.
02:09:32.32 Robert Forsyth I'm sorry, Richard.
02:09:32.98 Jeremy Grace you
02:09:33.03 Unknown to death.
02:09:33.58 Robert Forsyth Thank you.
02:09:33.69 Unknown Thank you.
02:09:33.80 Jeremy Grace Thank you.
02:09:33.82 Adam Politzer Thank you.

Thank you.
02:09:33.97 Jeremy Grace Thank you.

Thank you.
02:09:36.96 Robert Forsyth Okay, gotcha.

The pole that's here, which takes his power lines, actually the power lines from the next property, it runs to line, one might be a phone line, I'm not sure, but certainly a power line, right across his view window, which is there. And he said, look, I'm up for whatever can happen. Now, following that discussion, I then spoke to Thank you.

who I think is the chairman of the underground committee. He gave me some advice on perhaps what we could do here. So I then sent an email to Mr. Fuller from 37 and explained to Mr. Sparkman and him that I'd spoken to the chairman of the underground committee and all of these people, including Mr Plumling, in fact, all the way down to there probably, were on board with trying to do some of the undergrounding and Mr Sparklin didn't even have the courtesy to respond to that. So that's where it was left.
02:10:49.03 Mayor Kelly Any more questions?

Thank you very much.
02:10:51.87 Robert Forsyth Thank you.
02:10:53.82 Mayor Kelly Are there any members of the public who would like to Address the council on this matter
02:11:02.19 Unknown Thank you.

you Mr. Mayor, I would like to hear from
02:11:06.02 Unknown Thank you.

I would like to hear from the undergrounding committee since we have a member here.
02:11:15.98 Mayor Kelly to show.
02:11:18.02 Unknown Mm-hmm.
02:11:18.29 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:11:18.31 Dan Pusini And you shall.
02:11:18.95 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:11:19.05 Unknown Thank you.
02:11:20.86 Dan Pusini I'm Dan Pusini, Chair of the Underground Committee.
02:11:26.49 Unknown Well, I guess what I would ask is, what is your take on this? You listened to I guess you didn't listen to the appeal. The appeal is to us, it's not to you. So what can you give us any further?
02:11:45.46 Dan Pusini I received a call from Mr. Forsyth and I offered to meet with him and his neighbors to try to resolve something here if they could try to move toward underground. That's pretty much all I could really do here. We found for Mr. Sparkman because it met the requirements. And there was also an easement issue that we were notified that wasn't available to Mr. Sparkman. He couldn't underground because he couldn't get the easement. So, but that wasn't really part of our findings. It was more financial, the 1% of the value.
02:12:07.64 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:12:21.31 Unknown And he couldn't get the easement because
02:12:24.71 Dan Pusini At the time, we were told that there was an easement required because it was all surrounded by private property. And so it was kind of a moot point. If you can't get an easement, you can't go. But beside that, it vet the financial requirement of the 1% of the market value of the property. So we found for the variance. But since that time, and we've heard from Mr. Forsyte, and you've just heard all this testimony, I offered my services to Mr. Forsyte and Mr. Sparkman and the neighbors to sit with them and review all this to see if they could come to some agreement to Underground, since that's our intention.
02:12:34.59 Unknown Mm-hmm.

Thank you.
02:12:44.56 Unknown Thank you.
02:13:03.04 Unknown And you haven't really
02:13:05.15 Dan Pusini I haven't heard back yet.
02:13:05.79 Unknown Okay. When did you do that?
02:13:08.49 Dan Pusini It was, I can't remember the exact time, I'm sorry. A week or so? From Mr. Forsythe and responded to him on the telephone.
02:13:11.39 Unknown A week or so?
02:13:17.04 Unknown Okay, but it was like a week or so ago. Did they have time to get back to you? I see, okay.
02:13:19.32 Dan Pusini Did they have time to get back to you?

OK.
02:13:23.69 Unknown Thank you.
02:13:23.71 Unknown you
02:13:23.79 Dan Pusini Thank you.
02:13:23.83 Unknown Thank you.

All right, well thank you.
02:13:27.74 Dan Pusini Thank you.
02:13:27.77 Unknown Earth.
02:13:28.21 Dan Pusini Yeah.
02:13:28.74 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
02:13:32.03 Mayor Kelly Okay, any other member of the public care to address?

Council on this issue?

All right, back up here.

Mr. McRishnan.

Todd, can you answer some more questions?
02:13:44.35 Unknown Todd, to do the plan that's outlined as the alternative, kind of the weird one here. You could stay on that map, the one you were on before.

How many easements would be required to just do that plan? Would it be with both, I don't even remember the addresses of all these ones, but all three of those properties would have to agree to that too.
02:14:05.19 Todd T. Chow Uh,
02:14:09.62 Unknown Right.
02:14:09.96 Todd T. Chow The way the wires are currently strung, 27, 37, and 29 would have to participate in a project. Right, right. So, and easement, so probably three parties.
02:14:20.86 Unknown right?

So, yeah.
02:14:27.66 Mayor Kelly And what would the cost of that be? Is that the 41? Yeah.
02:14:30.70 Todd T. Chow That's four. Well, he just passed that out in the spreadsheet. And that's 40,000 new costs, but he's already incurred 11,000.
02:14:30.79 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

More.

She's nice.
02:14:39.97 Unknown That's just for him. That's not for him.
02:14:42.80 Todd T. Chow Yeah, those are Mr. Sparkman's costs. The Forsyth's would probably incur some costs. What those are haven't been disclosed. And similarly, there would be some costs to get the wires down and the conduit run into the new hub, into 3-7. And those costs haven't been explored either. Although Mr. Forsyth has represented that he would pay for both.
02:15:01.75 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:15:01.77 Unknown Thank you.
02:15:01.97 Patricia DeLuca And those costs $7.

Although...

Thank you.
02:15:09.85 Mayor Kelly both part of the main trunk as well as his own line.
02:15:12.38 Todd T. Chow Yeah, to restring the wires through a conduit into his panel.

And actually, to be honest, Mr. Forsythe had...
02:15:21.56 Unknown Thank you.
02:15:21.66 Unknown Yeah.
02:15:26.80 Unknown I've been being honest before, but now you're
02:15:28.06 Todd T. Chow No, it's a broader scope. Mr. Forsythe has been remodeling his home.
02:15:28.11 Unknown No, it's a broader scope.
02:15:31.03 Unknown Thank you.
02:15:36.18 Todd T. Chow And as a result of his remodel, his property was underground. So he no longer gets aerial power or aerial communications from the poles. It's run underground to the base of it and goes up. It's not a huge undergrounding amount.
02:15:40.70 Patricia DeLuca uh,
02:15:56.81 Todd T. Chow He's done, essentially his work is done. There would have to be some similar work done for 37.

you Thank you.
02:16:05.73 Unknown But if you did that, that would, excuse me, if you did that running the trench to 27 to the pole there,
02:16:07.01 Todd T. Chow that we're going to be doing.
02:16:16.15 Unknown It's not the ideal solution and more work would have to be done if the other properties up there wanted to be part of the project, right? It's not the ultimate solution.
02:16:20.56 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:16:20.61 Unknown Thank you.
02:16:20.66 Todd T. Chow All right.
02:16:20.74 Unknown Thank you.
02:16:20.85 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:16:25.27 Todd T. Chow ultimate solution. If the larger neighborhood along Glen Court wanted to do a utility underground project, there would be subsequent costs for $29, $27, $37 to join in.
02:16:31.75 Unknown Yeah.
02:16:40.57 Unknown Well, I mean, and Dan, I didn't ask you this, but you've lived through this nightmare both personally and with your district, you know, and I didn't want you to, these things are next to impossible to pull off at the end of the day, even if you have willing participants to start.

And...

Yeah, so I don't want you to recount your experience, both being the helpful person that you were trying to be to this whole district, and then how it sort of turned around and Thank you.

Thank you.
02:17:13.75 Unknown the day, you have to have somebody who steps up and is willing to just underwrite the whole thing and just say, otherwise it will never happen.

And that is Luckily on my street somebody did that. They were willing to do it because the poll was right
02:17:28.26 Unknown Thank you.
02:17:28.30 Unknown you
02:17:28.34 Unknown you
02:17:28.41 Unknown Well, that, yeah.
02:17:28.50 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
02:17:36.95 Unknown Well, it sounds like there's some benefits for everyone involved here if some configuration here was underground, but it's like herding cats, these projects of undergrounding, because it's all well in the beginning and then you get down to who's legal documents and who pays what and it all falls apart.

You know, nobody wants to And I bet the cost will be a factor of what this estimate is at the end of the day because, and I had to to interconnect with my part of Undergrounding Archer Street, I had to run mine twice because the plan changed.

So, You know, it's just one of those things where you have to say, I'm willing to do this unless it bankrupts me.

and particularly figure out who gets the most benefit out of it, and that person kind of has to step up to the plate.

and say, you know what, I get the most benefit out of it. I'll manage both the process and at the end of the day, I'll catch the costs. Because otherwise, you get what turns out what happened in your district where all the costs kind of went sideways.

And there's also no discipline if it becomes a shared cost, because then not one person is driving the bus on keeping the cost under control.

If it is a good thing that needs to happen, perhaps it can happen outside of this particular set of scenarios in this appeal because then people are doing it He met the tests in the city ordinance, You know, whether you think underground is a good thing or not, If there's a benefit that is shared more by one party than others, then that party kind of has to step up to the microphone in a lot of ways. And it's not a pleasant process because in a sense PG&E can just They can do whatever they want, and that you can drag on and on.
02:19:32.61 Unknown I don't see any value to running the trench to number 27 because it doesn't solve the issue in the long run.

And so at the same time, there are a couple other things that I think we need to consider. One is, and the first is, that Mr. Sparkman met the city ordinance rules for hardship, and the city approved it. So that has been done, and I think we as a council need to respect that. Secondly, I think that we as a city erred in not notifying the neighbors of the hearings because neighbors do have interest and should be alerted for undergrounding and other Thank you.

ministerial issues such as the ADUs, I believe, but that's another subject we'll address later. So, neighbors need to be noticed so that they can be there to speak and be at the appeal and know what's going on. So, I think that what we need to do is uphold the decision that our our underground committee made and at the same time recognize the issues surrounding this and that the city didn't notify the neighbors, and so we should definitely not charge the appealing party the two thousand plus dollars for appealing.
02:21:26.99 Unknown Thank you.
02:21:31.90 Councilmember Pfeiffer Well, like all appeals, this is a very complex situation. But whenever I hear of a situation like this where something that impacts neighbors and they're not informed, it concerns me very much. And I'm very disappointed that our current ordinance does not mandate this 300-foot notice and noticing of all parties involved. I do think that the Council in this situation, we...

you know, we have this ordinance and we have criteria for hardship and city staff has determined that Mr. Sparksman meets the hardship, you know, criteria for the ordinance. At the same time, I'm very dismayed at the lack of, you know, mandating the noticing with the ordinance. So I feel that that of mandating the noticing with the ordinance. So I feel that moving forward, and I also support not giving a reimbursement to the folks who appealed for the filing, because I think that's an error in an ordinance and I'd like to see that fixed. But I also feel that I know that I heard from Mr. Sparksman that he wanted to have good relations with his neighbors. He wanted to see this benefit all his neighbors and in the spirit of living many, many years and hopefully seeing all of your faces through the years in Sausalito, that you reach out and you work together towards something that could be beneficial to everyone because it's something that would ultimately benefit everyone in that neighborhood on that street.
02:23:39.97 Unknown Thank you.

A big lesson in self-control here, pointing out working with your neighbors. But anyway.

Well, you guys are a lot more than you expected.

I agree.
02:23:54.36 Unknown Stay on.
02:23:54.97 Unknown here.

I'll stay on track. Council member Fiefer took people to court to not trim her trees behind her house that instructed people's views. How can you lecture other people about going out and working with them when you weren't willing to do it?
02:24:06.66 Unknown Let's keep it on the top.

Crap.
02:24:08.52 Unknown Thank you.

In this case, it's kind of holier than thou.

Will you focus on yourself? This is the person in charge of the meeting.

In civil behavior, mumbling and saying comments is also not civil.
02:24:27.03 Unknown I'm sorry.

Oh.

Thank you.
02:24:30.37 Unknown I got two more meetings to wait and I'm ready for you to go.
02:24:30.41 Unknown Thank you.
02:24:33.83 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:24:33.85 Unknown Thank you.
02:24:33.88 Mayor Kelly Let's go forward. I need to have your comments on this.
02:24:33.95 Unknown Okay.
02:24:37.97 Mayor Kelly you
02:24:38.05 Unknown Right. So I think, as I said before, this is an unfortunate circumstance where people don't work well together, but it's very complicated. You're all, I'm assuming, good people and made your best efforts to cooperate with each other.
02:24:38.56 Mayor Kelly So I think in a
02:24:52.65 Unknown But that being said, as I said before, I think they met the criteria of the tests and whether you think that's a flawed criteria or not.

Um...

You know, I think the Those were new criteria versus the older criteria which were much tighter to require underground in basically all circumstances where you touch your electrical panel.

So, and I guess we didn't touch the noticing when we redid that criteria for, I think that was a policy document, not a revamping of this ordinance.

Um, So that being said, as I said, I would hope that particularly if we waive the appeal fee, that can be a starter towards working to a better solution for the neighborhood and perhaps Um, Mr. Forthart, you can drive that process. And maybe this can become a healing situation for your neighborhood where Um, My guess is that you would get the main benefit out of moving that poll.

proposition having dealt with that in my little neighborhood too.

So I don't...

It's something where you'll have to weigh the benefits versus the cost, obviously, for yourself.

But I also hope that you folks would step up to the plate in that process and say, hey, you know, we didn't have to do this. We already incurred these other costs to a completely different thing.

Thank you.

Um, but it is a benefit for everyone in the neighborhood if it gets to that point where people can finally agree.

The other thing is you get the third and fourth party here to the table and then willing to step up and pay for their connection into the trench or even part of the trench here And that, you know, I wish you all the best of luck in getting those two parties in there, because that's not going to be an easy thing to...
02:26:34.01 Patricia DeLuca here.
02:26:37.83 Unknown But I think given that the process was followed and that we should probably just leave this be. And Dan offered to help. I think the cities, Todd's lived through this now twice in the last three or four years in sort of these districts or areas where people are trying to do this. And maybe there's a way that we can a broker solution can take place and still give everyone some benefit, but where the more equally, I mean more appropriately.
02:27:09.54 Mayor Kelly Okay. I'm always troubled by when the city has given itself the power to ask people to do something in exchange for getting a permit, and then they don't do it. It troubles me a lot. That being said, and we've had this occur before with the steps going up on Casno, and we caved and got a very small pittance for that. But that being said, I see a fatal flaw in this from the very beginning. You couldn't perform on your property because you didn't have control over the easements. That's a big issue that you can't do anything about, and the city, frankly, can't do anything about. And then that realized there's no teeth in the ordinance, and we couldn't put teeth in the ordinance to compel a private property owner to give you an easement. So the failure to get agreement is disturbing. I mean, to have neighbors fight with each other, I see it all the time, but it's disturbing that we We can't find common ground and get together for common good. The hardship problem, you're on the edge of the hardship problem, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I don't think at this point there's any sense of pouring more lawyer money into something that should be going in the ground instead of to lawyers. That troubles me. And as far as the fee on the appeal, I think that we give the money. We don't charge a fee for the appeal in this case because nobody's a winner here. Everybody's losing so far. And I would encourage you as a community, both you and the people that are not represented here tonight, to get together and somehow bury the hatchet in the ground, not in each other, and move toward some kind of community good that will help all of you. It will make his views get better and your situation get solved.
02:28:38.62 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:29:02.21 Mayor Kelly and your neighbors perhaps, and so on. Underground is the best thing in the world because the lines don't come down when the storms.

The more poles we can get rid of, the better.

But it's been very hard. I was part of the, when I first got on the council, I was part of the big mess up here on Santa Rosa that had 70, 80 homes involved in it.

And it all sounded so good and it collapsed in a pile of disgust and everything else. And the city ate $250,000 of money. We had advanced two people to do the work and no one paid us back. So I learned a big lesson on that one. Don't ever loan money to residents.

Thank you.

So anyway, that being said, I'm ready for a motion if we have one.
02:29:44.84 Councilmember Pfeiffer I just, Mr. Mayor, I'd just like to make a comment with respect to what we heard earlier. A council member up here referred to, well, he had his facts wrong on that, just for the record.
02:29:59.59 Unknown Thank you.

Thanks.
02:30:00.02 Unknown Thank you.
02:30:02.25 Unknown So Thank you.
02:30:05.97 Unknown Yeah, go ahead. All yours. No, that's fine.
02:30:10.20 Unknown So...

I don't care.

All right, I'll make a motion then that we deny the appeal and Thank you.

and go ahead and remit the dollars back to the appellant.
02:30:32.10 Unknown Thank you.
02:30:32.21 Unknown Thank you.
02:30:32.24 Unknown music.
02:30:32.65 Unknown Thank you.
02:30:32.76 Unknown I'll second.
02:30:35.11 Unknown But is that enough? Jury's tone. OK.
02:30:39.04 Mary Wagner Mr. Mayor, if I may, just for clarification, I believe staff will be returning with a resolution of denial at the next meeting.

Yeah.
02:30:46.25 Unknown Thank you.
02:30:46.45 Mary Wagner Thank you.
02:30:46.50 Unknown Oh, you are? Yes, so we can put that on your You're directing us to
02:30:47.43 Mary Wagner Yes, so we can put that on your You're directing us to return so you're directing that the appeal be denied you're directing staff to return with the resolution of denial which can be on your consent calendar because the public hearing
02:30:51.55 Stacy Thank you.
02:30:59.31 Mary Wagner has been fully heard and closed, Thank you.

and that can come back potentially on the 27th.

Thank you.
02:31:05.97 Dan Pusini Thank you.
02:31:06.01 Mayor Kelly you
02:31:06.19 Unknown Thank you.
02:31:06.29 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:31:06.31 Unknown Thank you.
02:31:06.34 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:31:06.68 Unknown I started to do that.
02:31:07.83 Mayor Kelly Okay, all in favor?
02:31:09.01 Unknown Aye.
02:31:09.03 Mayor Kelly I...

Anybody close?
02:31:12.79 Dan Pusini I wish you well.
02:31:17.25 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:31:17.28 Dan Pusini Thank you.
02:31:17.31 Mayor Kelly Okay.
02:31:28.99 Mayor Kelly a resolution of intention to amend an agreement with CalPERS.
02:31:56.92 Adam Politzer Thank you.
02:31:57.04 Unknown Thank you.
02:31:58.98 Adam Politzer Thank you, Mr. Mayor and members of the City Council. The agenda item before you tonight is a resolution of intention to amend the agreement with CalPERS in order to implement a second pension tier. That second pension tier was authorized by the City Council through memorandums of understanding with the City's bargaining groups in order to provide further structural balance to the city's finances. It provides that further structural balance in two ways. The first is by providing, this is our existing pension plan and the new pension plan would have a lower level of benefits. From 2.5% of 55 to existing miscellaneous employees to 2% of 55, and eliminating the final average compensation of one year to final annual compensation of three years for miscellaneous employees. For police safety employees, it lowers the benefit from 3% of 55 to 2% of 50, and again, it brings it down to 3%, I mean, highest average three years compensation.
02:32:51.48 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:32:51.49 Unknown you
02:33:05.97 Adam Politzer Not only does it lower the benefit, but it lowers the cost. The cost for the new second tier of the miscellaneous employees would be 10%. In conjunction with the labor reform package, the city reduced its existing pension tier by having employees paying the FAC one portion of the employer's premium and also by paying off the side funds so previously to July 1st the city's total employer contribution rate for miscellaneous employees was 16.1%. So we lowered our cost on existing employees, the new pension tier lowers our cost on new employees and which means almost a 3.7% reduction in cost for all new employees going forward in miscellaneous. For the police safety plan, our total pension costs prior to requiring the employees to pay the employer's share of FAC1 premium would have been 37.8%. But part of our reform package was to lower the employer's cost on that down to 36.9. The new pension tier for police employees would be 20.5% for every police officer. Just on a percentage, we save 16.389% on new employees that are hired under the second pension tier.
02:34:29.05 Patricia DeLuca No.
02:34:32.05 Adam Politzer Thank you.

There's one last element and that was the Public Employees Pension Reform Act. The Public Employees Pension Reform Act implements a third tier for the city of Sausalito. So we have employees hired prior to June 30, 2012. We have employees hired after July 1st of 2012. And then we have employees that are hired after January 1st, 2013 that don't have CalPERS reciprocity. I want to explain that. If we hired an employee after January 1st, 2013 who's coming from a 1937 Act County or he or she is coming from a non-CalPERS or was never in CalPERS, then they would fall under Tier 3. But if they're coming to the city of Sausalito from another city and they have reciprocity, then they would go into the lowest tier that the city has in place at this time.

So how that would work would be this employee then if he does have CalPERS reciprocity instead of going into the Tier 1 plan would now go into the Tier 2 plan. But if he or she does not have CalPERS reciprocity would go into the Tier 3 plan which is an even lower benefit and a lower cost. It would be 2% at 62 with three year annual compensation and for safety it's 2% at 57. So there's some interesting things. Tier 2, so if we don't approve this, then new employees would go into Tier 1. So Tier 2 guarantees that employees with kill reciprocity will go into here. Second thing is that PEPRA, the Public Employees' Pension Reform Act, will only honor tier two contracts that have MOUs negotiated.

and have a CalPERS contract amendment effective December 31st, 2013. By passing this item tonight in the subsequent two actions, 2012, I'm sorry. Thank you. By passing these items tonight, then we guarantee that we would have that benefit of having a lower cost. If we don't pass this, then we would be increasing all future costs to the city forever because CalPERS, even though it's against the spirit of PEPRA, right now PEPRA does not allow you to form a new Tier 2
02:36:30.26 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:36:30.29 Unknown Thank you.
02:36:30.41 Patricia DeLuca I'm going to go.
02:36:53.26 Adam Politzer that's lower than your existing tier, but higher than the PEPRA tier after January 1st of 2013. And the third part to notice is that because we went from a 3% of 55 to a 2% of 55, 2% of 50, we're allowed to go into, there's three pools, three plans for safety employees under PEPRA.
02:37:09.83 Patricia DeLuca 2% of 50.
02:37:19.43 Adam Politzer we'll be able to go into the 2% of 57 plan because our benefit matches closer to that. But if we did not pass this tonight and we still had this in effect, then we would have to go into the 2.7% of 57 plan, which was a higher benefit and therefore a higher cost to the city. So the process to implement then for tonight will be reading the resolution of intent to approve an amendment, and that's tonight's City Council Action Staff is recommending that you do approve that. On November 27th will be the introduction and first reading of an ordinance that amends the CalPERS contract and then on December 11th would be the adoption and second reading of the CalPERS contract. I'm ready to answer any questions you want
02:38:06.85 Jeremy Grace Thank you.

you
02:38:07.39 Adam Politzer Questions?
02:38:07.97 Jeremy Grace Thank you.
02:38:08.08 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor, a question?

So, Charlie, it's my understanding that under, oh, let's see, Government Code Section 7507 that CalPERS provides an actuary report as a contract amendment cost analysis. Yes.
02:38:31.91 Adam Politzer this.
02:38:32.30 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.

Have we received that?
02:38:33.58 Adam Politzer That's where this figure came from.
02:38:35.96 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.

Did we get a copy of that?
02:38:38.68 Adam Politzer The summary of it was in the stamp report, but I can provide a copy to the Council, yes.
02:38:42.81 Councilmember Pfeiffer It would have been helpful to get the actuarial report.

Thank you.
02:38:50.95 Adam Politzer Let me pull this back up.
02:38:53.53 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
02:38:53.70 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
02:38:55.49 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
02:38:57.93 Adam Politzer This came from the actuary report and this was only a one page, a two page report that had these two tables in it. Each actuary report had this table and this table.

The only difference between what their report was and ours is it showed the 16.1 here and the 37.8 because the actuarial report doesn't take into consideration that we're requiring our employees to pay the employer's share of the FAC1. And the valuation report was prepared before we paid off our side fund.
02:39:36.09 Unknown Thank you.
02:39:37.88 Unknown Go ahead.

Oh, sorry, I didn't know you had a question. No, go ahead. Charlie, in this chart here, the difference between the bottom of the employee contribution rate, eight and seven?
02:39:40.80 Barbara Geisler to the next day.
02:39:48.64 Adam Politzer Yes, for miscellaneous employees, new miscellaneous employees will only have to contribute 7% in the 2% of 55.4%.
02:39:49.25 Unknown for Mr.
02:39:53.28 Jeremy Grace Yes.

Thank you.
02:40:01.01 Unknown The...

the new tier for the police allows them to retire at age 50, 2% at age 50. Do we have any numbers going out, say, 5 to 10 years on that and the effect that will have?
02:40:22.93 Adam Politzer I guess numbers pertaining to what?
02:40:26.00 Unknown to a comparison, my concern is we're going to be paying five more years per person in benefits into the future, allowing them to retire at age 50. Do we have a comparison that extends into the future that tells us the difference between what we have now and the 3% at 55 and the 2% at 50?
02:40:55.35 Adam Politzer Actuarially, except for the amount that's the risk pools, which fluctuates based on the stock market, the difference, and the side fund, the difference will always be about the same.
02:41:12.16 Unknown Depending, this is CalPERS figures.
02:41:19.75 Unknown When you walked us through this during the budget process, because this was all tied into that, I think that it was sort of a net net as you said, sort of it came out about the same, even though the retirement age was less, but because the 2% is so much less than 3 on a percentage basis, it sort of nets out at the same. And then the discussion was, do you really want 55-year-old police officers chasing people down? Correct. So...
02:41:45.33 Unknown Yeah. But you're saying they would be the same.
02:41:48.59 Unknown you
02:41:49.01 Adam Politzer Yes, the difference between the two is actuarially it will always be the same.
02:41:54.53 Unknown All right.
02:41:56.12 Adam Politzer The major difference is in the net employer cost, the normal cost, so the difference between these two will always remain the same. The things that fluctuate are our side fund, which we hope to pay off in a couple years, which will bring, so again, in terms of pension reform, that's, we want to lower our existing employees' cost as much as we can, so we want to pay that off, and then, of course, the difference would be 1.9%.
02:42:26.12 Unknown Yeah, but I'm talking about as we get into paying for the retirees out into the future in 10, 15 years from now.

What are we looking at? What are you know, what are we looking at then?
02:42:43.15 Adam Politzer Actuarially, that's part of the normal cost. So the difference between this 15.5 and the 14.2 is the actuarial difference of retiring five years earlier.
02:42:55.43 Unknown Thank you.
02:42:55.45 Mayor Kelly is less.
02:42:56.87 Adam Politzer With less.
02:42:58.57 Mayor Kelly Okay.

Any more questions?
02:43:02.37 Unknown Thank you.
02:43:02.38 Lars Jensen Thank you.
02:43:02.40 Unknown because part of it is that you earn more as you get older, so the cost at the tail end of five years is much higher than the first five years, so it sort of ends up that way. And tail first?
02:43:08.85 Adam Politzer is
02:43:12.78 Adam Politzer Thank you.

And CalPERS estimates that cost increasing 3.25%. Right. And some inflation rate or some. Right. Right.
02:43:21.47 Unknown Thank you.
02:43:21.64 Adam Politzer Thank you.
02:43:21.91 Unknown Thank you.
02:43:21.94 Adam Politzer Thank you.
02:43:21.98 Unknown Yeah.
02:43:22.01 Unknown Thank you.
02:43:22.04 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
02:43:23.97 Unknown Thank you.

No.
02:43:25.28 Mayor Kelly you
02:43:25.35 Unknown Thank you.
02:43:26.11 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:43:26.25 Unknown Thank you.
02:43:26.31 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Thank you.
02:43:26.67 Unknown Thank you.
02:43:27.04 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

All right. Thank you, Charlie. We'll take public comment. Anyone from the public care to comment or anything to say about this issue?

All right, seeing none, we'll bring it back up here. Is there any discussion or shall we have a motion? A motion.
02:43:44.01 Unknown I would like to say one thing.

Thank you.

This...

I voted against this package because it does not have a 401k-like plan in it. And I'm still disappointed that we don't have the 401k plan, and I think that our pensions are unsustainable because of that. However, since this does provide some small amount of savings, I am going to vote for it, but recognizing that it is very, very small.

Thank you.
02:44:29.36 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:44:29.39 Unknown Thank you.
02:44:29.42 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Any other comments?

Seeing none, I'll call for more.
02:44:34.28 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor, I'd like to make a comment. I concur with what Council Member Ford has said. From the beginning, I saw a 401k hybrid pension plan as part of this, and that's why I voted against it too.

Since this is what's on the table and we have a timeline here for approval, Um...

I guess we need to move forward. But I concur that the impact of this is going to be 20 to 30 years out.
02:45:08.03 Unknown Well, can I make a motion to just move on? Sure. I'll make a motion to adopt a resolution of intention to approve an amendment to contract between the board
02:45:10.92 Unknown Sure.
02:45:18.04 Unknown of Administration, California Public Employees Retirement System, and the City Council of Sausalito.
02:45:28.35 Mayor Kelly Wait a second.

Thank you.

All right. Debbie, would you call the roll?
02:45:36.13 Debbie Councilmember Becker.
02:45:37.58 Mayor Kelly Yes.
02:45:38.55 Debbie Council member Ford?
02:45:39.78 Mayor Kelly Yes.
02:45:40.25 Unknown Thank you.
02:45:40.35 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
02:45:40.67 Debbie Councilmember Weiner? Yes.
02:45:42.29 Unknown Thank you.
02:45:43.42 Debbie Vice Mayor Leon.
02:45:44.89 Mayor Kelly Yes.
02:45:45.41 Debbie you Mayor Kelly.
02:45:46.51 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Yes. All right. We'll go back to item five.
02:45:55.91 Unknown Oh, I have to stay for you.
02:45:57.24 Unknown Thank you.
02:45:57.40 Mayor Kelly 5C.

which is introduction and first reading by title only of an ordinance city council of the city of South Salido establishing regulations for due accessory dwelling units and an amnesty program Thank you.

for existing, unpermitted accessory dwelling units. It's almost a run-on sentence, but...

Thank you.
02:46:19.20 Lily Good evening, Mr. Mayor, council members, and members of the audience.
02:46:20.02 Mayor Kelly Good evening, Holly.
02:46:26.03 Mayor Kelly Would you bring us up to date where we are with this and what specifically we're focusing on tonight?

Sure.
02:46:31.01 Lily Sure. The council held a public hearing on the ADA regulations at the first meeting in October and directed staff to return with the first reading at the second meeting in October. And at that meeting, the item was continued to this evening with direction to have some conversations with individual council members to discuss different topics. And those topics are what I'm going to talk about. Great.
02:46:59.63 Mayor Kelly Great. Perfect. Thank you.
02:47:02.38 Lily Welcome.

So for the public's benefit that might be watching or you in the audience tonight, this meeting tonight is to talk about accessory dwelling unit regulations. Accessory dwelling units are small, ancillary, independent living units on a primary dwelling unit parcel.

They would be allowed in single family and multi-family districts under a staff level approval. The regulations deal with both permitting new ADUs as well as granting amnesty to unpermitted existing ADUs.

These regulations for you tonight have been drafted pursuant to the city's recently adopted housing element policy.

The housing element promises 12 new ADUs and 12 amnesty ADUs by March of 2014. If the city fails to develop these ADUs, we'll need to go back and consider other strategies to develop low-cost and very low-cost housing in the city.
02:48:14.54 Unknown and
02:48:15.13 Lily The history, I gave you an overview a few minutes ago, but these regulations were drafted by a subcommittee of the Housing Element Task Force, reviewed by the Planning Commission at two meetings, and looked at by the Council at two meetings as well.

So the first issue raised in the stop report was regarding a parking waiver.

The draft ordinance currently allows a parking exception for new ADUs with a conditional use permit to be reviewed by the Planning Commission.

for properties where parking is not feasible on site. The suggestion is that an additional parking waiver could be allowed with a conditional use permit for approval by the Planning Commission for properties where parking is feasible. But the trade-off would be that the property owner would need to put in deed restriction for affordability for that unit so that the unit is rented to lower income households.
02:48:48.14 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:48:48.20 Unknown No.
02:48:48.56 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:49:13.80 Lily And the advantage of this suggestion is that there may be circumstances where parking is technically feasible on a site. There's room for it, but it may be infeasible economically. It may be too costly to actually construct that parking. And therefore, a property owner might not build that ADU.

One of the disadvantages of this suggestion is that when the deed restriction expires, the site will still not have its required parking.

but the unit would be allowed to be rented at market rates. However, by this time, the parking situation will have already existed for a number of years, and the neighborhood may have already absorbed that impact.

So this is a policy decision for the council to talk about tonight. Staff has provided some draft language in the staff report for you to consider. And you can incorporate that into the ordinance if you choose to do so.
02:50:13.91 Lily The second issue raised was regarding amnesty parking. The draft ordinance does not require parking for amnesty units.

The issue has been raised that a site could already be providing parking for that unit, and by not requiring parking, the existing parking could be lost at some point in the future.

And the suggestion would be that any existing parking for that amnesty unit that's already on site be retained for that unit in the future. The staff recommends this suggestion is an improvement to the ordinance and has included modified language in the draft ordinance, which would require any existing parking for that amnesty unit to be retained.
02:50:47.86 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:50:47.90 Unknown Thank you.
02:50:48.10 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
02:50:58.07 Councilmember Pfeiffer Lily, I'm sorry, should we hold our questions to the end, or do you want us to ask questions?
02:51:01.90 Mayor Kelly to ask questions. It'd be better if you could just make a note and hold it at the end and we'll ask him.
02:51:03.34 Lily Thank you.
02:51:06.56 Lily Okay.
02:51:07.25 Unknown Thank you.
02:51:09.35 Lily So the third issue raised was regarding a garage conversion. The draft ordinance does not prohibit the conversion of an existing garage into an ADU. The issue raised was that such a conversion should be prohibited because on-site parking would be removed. However, if parking needs to be modified on the site for whatever reason, it would be required to be replaced legally on-site.

Therefore, if a garage is converted, the parking would be required to be replaced on the parcel in an alternative location.

And this would encourage, hopefully, property owners to use existing structures to create that ADU, which could create less of an impact on the neighborhood. And therefore, staff is not recommending any modifications to the ordinance regarding garage conversions.
02:52:04.10 Lily The fourth issue raised was regarding certain exceptions and affordability restrictions. The draft ordinance allows exceptions from size in exchange for an affordability covenant for the ADU.

The thought is, in this specific case, as the ADU gets bigger, more rent can be charged for it. And therefore, an affordability covenant is needed to keep that rent at lower and moderate rates.

The issue raised was that exceptions from floor area, building coverage, and setbacks, which would be reviewed by the Planning Commission with a conditional use permit, should require an affordability restriction as a condition.
02:52:51.37 Lily Requiring an affordability restriction could be a substantial burden on a property owner and discourage the creation of ADUs. Due to their small size, ADUs can be inherently affordable to certain households. They can be more affordable than single-family houses and duplexes and even some apartments in Sausalito.

During the ADU working group meetings and the planning commission meetings, the notion of balance was discussed at length. This is the balance between the need to encourage the development of ADUs and lessen the impact on neighborhoods in the city. So this is a policy discussion question for the council this evening.

And we have included some draft language in the staff report for you to consider if you do choose to require that affordability covenant.
02:53:45.31 Lily The fifth issue raised was regarding privacy. The draft ordinance specifies an objective standard for evaluating privacy with the creation of an ADU. Specifically, the windows and decks and doors of the ADU may not be directly opposite and may not overlap adjacent residences indoors and outdoor living areas.

The issue raised is that the same privacy standard the Planning Commission uses in approving design review permits should be required. The standard is a subjective standard. It takes discretion in order to apply it. Staff would need to use judgment and discretion in deciding whether or not a permit could be approved. This judgment could be varied among different planners and therefore a decision wouldn't may not be applied uniformly and therefore it wouldn't be a ministerial standard therefore staff is not recommending that this specific change be made however there could be an opportunity to allow a privacy exception through a conditional use permit process for an ADU that is determined not to meet the privacy standard. Then it would go to the Planning Commission for review, and then that finding for privacy could be applied where the Planning Commission would have the discretion to look at those privacy issues. So we have recommended some draft language that was incorporated into the draft ordinance for your consideration this evening.

The sixth issue is related to submittal requirements. The ordinance currently, or at the last meeting, did not contain a list of submittal requirements. And the suggestion was that they should be incorporated into the regulations. And we did do that for you tonight. We made the list not as detailed as a handout list that would be at the counter. And this is because we need a little bit of latitude in case things do change so we don't have to come back every couple months to request that change in the ordinance. But it's a basic list of the site planning and elevations and story pools.
02:56:07.39 Lily And the seventh issue is regarding noticing. The zoning ordinance Thank you.

as a whole does not require advance notice of projects that are ministerial in nature. That means that are at a staff level of review. And therefore, because the ADU ordinance is to be a ministerial ordinance, there is not a noticing requirement in it currently.

It's also staff's understanding that adding a noticing requirement to the draft ordinance may make the ordinance more susceptible to legal challenge.

Staff currently annually administers a number of ministerial permits using a view determination process where story polls are put up, the staff contacts neighbors that might be affected. Sometimes we send out a letter. Sometimes we go door to door. We stand at different points in the street to determine what views may be affected. And if we determine there is a view impact, then it would go to the Planning Commission for review. So we're suggesting that the same similar process be used with this ordinance, where the story polls would be put up because we have a story poll regulation. And it would be a policy that staff would send a letter to property owners asking them about any view concerns and inviting comments and then that would be the entrance into their homes to see their view concerns if there is a view concern as determined by staff it would go to the Planning Commission for review
02:57:32.07 Patricia DeLuca and inviting comments.
02:57:44.41 Lily And so Steph thinks that this is the proper balance between the state's requirements for a ministerial process and the city's desire to make sure that neighbors' concerns are addressed.

We have provided some language that you could incorporate into the draft ordinance after our policy discussion on this issue.
02:58:14.36 Lily And so this next issue, Issue 8, is not an issue that was brought up by any council member, but it was brought to staff's attention that a conflict existed in the amnesty ADU permit section. The staff report we gave you on October 23rd said that there was going to be a waiver for amnesty ADUs for floor area, and that we were recommending that. However, that language was mistakenly omitted from the ordinance. However, there was language in the conversion section that referenced that waiver, so there's a conflict there that needed to be taken care of.

So staff recommends that as the floor area will be documented by the department but not counted towards eligibility, there's no need for a floor area waiver for amnesty units, that 500 square foot waiver. So we're now not recommending that waiver be applied. And we're recommending that the reference to the waiver be removed from the conversion section. We've done that in the draft ordinance.
02:59:20.12 Lily The last issue is that there were some minor edits made in the draft ordinance for typos and language clarification that were made, several of them throughout the document.
02:59:34.52 Lily This is the summary table. So there's three different categories of actions for your consideration tonight. The first are items that the council should discuss in terms of if the draft language should be incorporated into the ordinance or not. And this is shown in, it's supposed to be shown in brown text. It's the one that you can't read. but basically what it says is the policy direction from the council required and see issue X for the text that you can look at. The second are issues that we've already incorporated into the ordinance, and you should make sure that you're comfortable with the text that we incorporated, and that's shown in green on the screen. And then the last is our changes that staff does not support and have not been incorporated into the ordinance, and that's shown in red.
03:00:07.34 Unknown you
03:00:31.92 Lily So just for review, the next steps moving forward, tonight we're having the first reading. If you decide to move it along to a second reading, that would be on November 27. And then the regulations would become effective if adopted on November 27. They would become effective on December 27.
03:00:53.24 Lily So tonight we're recommending that you review the issues 1, 4, and 7, and introduce and read by title the ordinance for the ADU regulations. That concludes our staff report, and we're available for any questions.
03:01:08.65 Mayor Kelly All right, questions?
03:01:10.70 Unknown Yes, go ahead.

I have a...
03:01:16.49 Unknown I have a couple questions, Lily. I wasn't here for the last meeting. I was absent, so I don't know if this was discussed. If it was, I apologize. But can you tell me why we have a limit on, a lower limit, on the square footage? I see we have a 300 square footage limit. And I can say that, you know, I have two studios right now that are under 300 square feet that have full separate kitchens and baths.

And so I'm wondering, what the reason is for that.

Is it, what is it based on?
03:01:57.48 Lily That was discussed not at the Planning Commission level, I don't think, but at the Working Group level. The Working Group did look at a number of other ordinances from other cities, mainly in Marin, than some others in the Bay Area. And I think a lot of them had that lower limit, that between X and X square footage. So I think they were using those ordinances as a template to base our ordinance off of. As for why that 300 square foot number came about, I can't remember right now. But I do know that we do have Joan Cox and Ray Whitty in the audience who are part of the working group. So if they do come up to speak and they recall.
03:02:16.04 Unknown But enjoy.
03:02:21.21 Unknown Okay.
03:02:29.95 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:02:29.98 Unknown Amen.
03:02:34.20 Unknown Yeah.

Okay. And the second thing I just wanted to confirm is that for the garage conversion, you do allow those, but people must provide for on-site parking that they're removing when they do convert the garage. They must, if they have a two-car garage, they have to provide two-car parking on-site.
03:03:02.36 Lily That parking would need to be provided somewhere else on site, not on street, on site. Okay, great.
03:03:07.06 Unknown Okay, great, great. Thank you.

Okay, next.

Do the...
03:03:16.08 Councilmember Pfeiffer Well, some of my questions got answered.

The notice, if we required the notice, what was the circumference on that? Was that 500? Could we, is there a reason it's not?
03:03:29.84 Lily It's a reference to the section, the notice section, the zoning ordinance. And it's a 300 square foot notice, which is the standard notice for designer view permits, conditional use permits, all types of notice. And that goes to property owners and occupants.

Thank you.
03:03:44.91 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.

Thank you.
03:03:45.45 Lily Thanks.
03:03:47.10 Unknown It is.

I don't know.
03:03:49.87 Unknown A couple questions, please. Will you walk me through? So number three, you answered for Carolyn that even though you convert your garage, you have to provide parking elsewhere. I get that. And that's fine. And you're suggesting we don't need to fool around with that. And that's fine. And can you just walk me through the process for the fifth issue, the privacy, how you've...

Thank you.

dealt with that in your changes
03:04:19.21 Lily Sure. So the issue is that we need to come up with an objective standard for staff to use at the counter to evaluate privacy. The design review permit standard is subjective. Right. And it could be applied in different ways in different cases according to who's allowing it or permitting the project. Right.
03:04:40.46 Patricia DeLuca Right. Permitting.
03:04:46.42 Lily we would invite perhaps changes to the standard if you think that this could be improved, making it different but still objective. Otherwise, we don't recommend any changes to the existing language.
03:04:53.03 Patricia DeLuca and
03:04:56.84 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:04:56.88 Unknown Thank you.
03:05:01.06 Unknown the same language. What were you referring to at the CUP point?
03:05:03.92 Lily Right. So we also, in taking a look at the privacy section, we realized that there's not an exception process for privacy. So let's say someone comes in with an ADU. They don't meet this privacy standard. They have a window that looks directly into someone else's house. We can't approve that ADU because it doesn't meet this privacy standard. If there was an exception put in the ordinance, the property owner could apply for a conditional use permit with the Planning Commission and the Planning Commission could use that that privacy finding they use for designer view permits to evaluate the privacy situation maybe it's not a big deal for the other neighbor and the project can be approved or maybe it is and needs to be discussed something needs to be modified
03:05:34.16 Unknown Thank you.
03:05:44.75 Unknown So the reason why you need an objective standard is to sort of comply with the Thank you.
03:05:52.74 Unknown Thank you.
03:05:52.79 Unknown Thank you.
03:05:52.80 Unknown All right.
03:05:52.99 Unknown Thank you.

thought, but you may not even have drawings of the house next door. So what happens in that scenario? Because a lot of files here are totally incomplete. So how would you judge that to be...how could you make that call
03:06:06.91 Lily In the brochure that I put together, the draft brochure, one of the requirements is that the property owner demonstrate that. So what I was thinking is they would show where the other house is and where the windows are on that house and where the decks are on that house. We would need something for them in order for us to make that determination.
03:06:16.92 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:06:16.93 Adam Politzer Thank you.
03:06:17.03 Unknown and I
03:06:17.25 Adam Politzer Thank you.
03:06:24.82 Unknown And so if you're the house next door and they represent, and you think that, how would you, How would you know in this scenario, let's say it's within the envelope of the existing building so there's no story polls?
03:06:37.24 Unknown Thank you.
03:06:38.65 Unknown How would that neighbor know that not until the hammer starts falling would I know that that's going to be constructed and just because it's not in direct line of sight, it's okay?
03:06:52.74 Lily How would then, I just want to clarify.
03:06:54.26 Unknown Yeah, if you're here in Newtown or in Oldtown and you're three feet from the property line or less, just because of the way the buildings have been built,
03:07:04.00 Unknown Thank you.
03:07:05.77 Unknown In this case, even though you have alternating windows, um, Is that true?
03:07:11.95 Lily if that standard is met.
03:07:13.06 Unknown Yeah, because you submitted a plan.
03:07:14.11 Lily So, Mm-hmm.
03:07:16.05 Unknown And it's within the envelope of the building already, so there's no let's say it's an understory kind of conversion,
03:07:22.49 Unknown Mm-hmm.
03:07:23.86 Unknown So there's no story poll.
03:07:25.04 Unknown Right.
03:07:25.45 Lily Thank you.
03:07:25.57 Unknown Would anyone ever know?

until the contractor showed up.
03:07:31.12 Lily If it was an interior conversion, internal conversion, sorry polls wouldn't be required, and staff is recommending that no notice be required. So the property owner
03:07:31.52 Unknown Because I get it over the...
03:07:43.86 Unknown Right.
03:07:47.05 Lily would not be aware of that.

Right.
03:07:52.63 Unknown Yeah, and see, so that's sort of the I understand where, and you guys did a lot of hard work trying to figure out some objective solution to this sort of very objective things by their nature.

or subjective, excuse me, things by nature, like what's privacy and what's views and all that other stuff. It's so hard to come up with an objective one. So if you're not even going to give people a chance to, know something is happening until after it's happened, then it's, I understand the requirement of not making the ordinance any more stringent or more encumbering than the current my reading of it, and I know Mary and I have different readings of it, is to not make it a worse process for these units. That's the state's intent.

You may read it that it says don't make it any process whatsoever, that they just have to kind of come up to some level of... But there's no buffer here. You know, like in this particular scenario that we just walked through, there's no, I'll never know until somebody shows up with hammers. You know, and so it's...

I don't think it's making the ordinance any more onerous than the current onerous, and I think that's the threshold versus adding a bunch of new encumbrances to doing this, which is, you know, I don't think you're doing by having a notice period for for anything.

But if you, correct me if I'm wrong, so in a ministerial approval now,
03:09:20.32 Unknown you
03:09:21.28 Unknown except for a hot water heater or something like that, say I'm under, what is it, 300 square feet in the current system.
03:09:27.60 Lily Thank you.
03:09:28.36 Unknown I think that's the crossover point.
03:09:30.93 Lily It's one of them. There's a number.
03:09:32.01 Unknown A bunch of different ones.

um, Is there any notice in those scenarios currently now in ministerial approvals But there's an appeal process, right?
03:09:44.65 Lily There's an appeal process for anything the planning department issues, any permit we issue. Right. It can be appealed to the planning commission. Right. For zoning permits, which for projects, an example is under 300 square feet. There's some other decks, that sort of thing. If it meets the criteria of the zoning ordinance, building coverage, floor area, height, setbacks, all that stuff, stuff and doesn't trigger design review we issue a zoning permit at the counter it's issued that day and then there's a 10-day appeal period and that's posted on the site with a you sure you've seen the round-tongue yellow signs and that's the neighbors notice that they have an appeal window
03:09:50.01 Unknown Right.
03:10:28.67 Unknown Okay.

And what was the other one? I just wanted to make sure I understood.

Thank you.
03:10:34.67 Unknown Thank you.
03:10:34.70 Unknown you
03:10:34.75 Unknown Thank you.
03:10:35.49 Unknown Thank you.

The first one, the first craziness that we talked about, which is the sort of incentivizing, that's a trigger to say if you want to get rid of a parking space, you have to dedicate. And you guys aren't recommending, the staff didn't find that you're not recommending that.
03:10:53.95 Debbie Okay.
03:10:59.69 Unknown The reasoning behind that one.
03:11:02.68 Lily We recommend, and we think it's a policy decision. Okay, that's right, that's right. You had it in your charge.
03:11:04.97 Unknown Okay, that's right, that's right. You had it in your chart. So the policies were the notice, the incentivizing, and number one, seven, and?
03:11:13.02 Lily And four, which is the exceptions.
03:11:14.58 Unknown Oh, yeah. Exceptions and important. I don't need to grill you about that one. I can make my points about it.

Thank you. Thanks. And the language is really, the language you put in for suggestions
03:11:21.75 Lily So,
03:11:21.93 Mayor Kelly Okay.
03:11:25.81 Mayor Kelly Any American language questions? All right. Thank you, Louie. You're welcome. And we'll open up to public comment. Is anyone from the public? Yes, sir. Thank you.

Please say your name.
03:11:40.83 Lars Jensen Hi, I'm Lars Jensen. I live on West Street. My wife and I are in the process of trying to build a house on Lower Crescent and I want to speak in favor of the concept expressed in issue number one where the concept is you lose the parking spot in exchange for the accessibility requirement or the affordability requirement. The reason I say this is that I think this could very well make or break the possibility for an EDU at this project that we recently received planning sign off for. And we'll probably commence construction next year.
03:12:04.10 Patricia DeLuca Port of the Lermit.
03:12:04.80 Unknown Mm-hmm.
03:12:18.40 Lars Jensen Thank you.
03:12:18.41 Mayor Kelly So, so, so.
03:12:18.58 Lars Jensen So, Parking would likely be feasible on the lot at great cost. We'd have to construct an elevated parking deck. It would be for one spot because we're talking about a potential ADU of around 500 square feet. But it would be very expensive, obviously, to construct that elevated deck on the steep slope of Lower Crescent.
03:12:34.78 Unknown Right.
03:12:42.00 Mayor Kelly So you're advocating for not having to provide a parking place, right?
03:12:44.69 Lars Jensen So I'm advocating yes for the payoff. I don't know if staff is suggesting it or not, but they're bringing it up as a policy issue. Because if we did have to construct that parking lot in order to get the ADU, the payback period on that construction would be so long as to make it pretty questionable as to whether it would make sense at all.
03:12:49.21 Mayor Kelly you
03:12:51.07 Patricia DeLuca or,
03:12:51.73 Unknown Thank you.
03:13:00.18 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
03:13:00.55 Jeremy Grace Thank you.
03:13:04.68 Mayor Kelly So you're willing to accept an affordability covenant? Is that what you're saying?
03:13:05.17 Lars Jensen We're doing it.

I think that we are. I just learned about this possibility yesterday, so I haven't had a chance to really research the nuances of affordability. And I'm hoping someone maybe in the audience can help me figure out where to go to do that. But it sounds like, our situation sounds like exactly what this policy decision is meant to address. And so I just wanted to come out in favor of that.
03:13:13.48 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:13:13.71 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.

Okay.

Thank you.
03:13:24.78 Unknown MAKING A LITTLE BIT OF
03:13:30.25 Mayor Kelly Terrific. Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks. Anyone else care to speak on this? Joan?
03:13:36.53 Unknown Thank you.
03:13:36.55 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:13:36.56 Unknown Thank you.
03:13:36.58 Mayor Kelly John, right?
03:13:37.00 Unknown Thank you.
03:13:37.05 Unknown Okay.
03:13:37.39 Unknown Thank you.
03:13:37.41 Unknown Thank you.
03:13:37.42 Unknown Do you want to talk?
03:13:37.67 Unknown Thank you.
03:13:37.69 Mayor Kelly Bye.
03:13:37.73 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
03:13:40.16 Unknown if I may, an answer to the question about the 300 square feet.
03:13:40.51 Unknown Thank you.
03:13:46.05 Joan Cox Thank you.
03:13:50.55 Joan Cox Hi, Joan Cox.
03:13:51.63 Jeremy Grace Thank you.

you Really?
03:13:56.10 Joan Cox For the record. The 300 square feet, we actually, Michael Rex participated in that discussion with us as well. We looked at SROs. We looked at what is feasible. We did not want to have, we didn't, we weren't, I mean, I've seen your lovely studio, and it is feasible, I guess, to have less than 300. We actually wanted to make sure that what was used as an ADU was a feasible living space. So we looked to other jurisdictions for guidance about what they thought was the minimum acceptable, and we made a judgment call. But I don't think any of us were particularly attached to it. We just wanted to make something workable.
03:13:56.52 Jeremy Grace For the record.
03:14:26.36 Patricia DeLuca Mm-hmm.
03:14:39.25 Unknown Okay. All right. Thank you.
03:14:41.45 Joan Cox While I'm here, I did notice something in the language that I think we should clarify a little bit. Right now, the revised language regarding parking says that if it's feasible to have a parking on your unit, then there will be a deed restriction. I think it should say if it's feasible to have parking on your lot and you choose not to, then you would have the date restriction. That's the way it should be. That's the way it should be. So if you're going to make that change, you want to do that since tonight's the first meeting. Thanks.
03:15:09.78 Unknown the deep restriction. Right. That's the way it should be.
03:15:18.91 Unknown Thanks, John.
03:15:21.14 Mayor Kelly Okay, anyone else care to comment?

All right, see, now I'm going to bring it back up here if I'm going to...
03:15:26.70 Unknown Thank you.
03:15:26.72 Mayor Kelly I'm not sure.
03:15:27.33 Unknown Let me give you my pitch on number four and then Heidi can come back up and I mean, sorry.
03:15:32.58 Mayor Kelly Well, let's see how we might. We've got nine items here. Most of them are not controversial. A few of them maybe. Should we go down and vote on each item just so we clear the deck rather than?
03:15:39.12 Unknown Thank you.
03:15:39.14 Unknown Mm-hmm.
03:15:49.72 Unknown Well, it sounds like that staff was supportive of everything but one, we have to decide one, three, four, and seven, right? But I would like to add.
03:16:03.12 Mayor Kelly But I would like to add. One, four, and seven are ones that they want us to have policy, yeah.
03:16:07.51 Unknown Yeah.

Right? And three, they don't.
03:16:07.85 Mayor Kelly right? And three, The rest of them, you either support them or you don't, but we need to determine whether we have full support of the council or three votes on each one of them. Yeah, and Carol has some. That's fine.
03:16:08.98 Unknown Thank you.
03:16:17.01 Jeremy Grace Yeah, since it has not been introduced yet, staff is proposing the ordinance in front of you and includes all of the staff's supportive recommendations.
03:16:19.52 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
03:16:30.02 Mayor Kelly Oh, so we could use the inverse of that then by saying, does anybody object to any of those and just deal with the ones that people object with. Yeah, we have a revival.
03:16:35.25 Jeremy Grace that would be one way or we have a revised ordinance for you. It's the one in your packet. Right. With that revised, with that updated revised ordinance,
03:16:41.87 Mayor Kelly with that.
03:16:42.39 Unknown Thank you.
03:16:42.44 Adam Politzer Thank you.
03:16:45.06 Jeremy Grace In addition, there are three policy issues we would like direction on, policies one,
03:16:48.41 Unknown I forget.

Bye.
03:16:49.98 Jeremy Grace THE FAMILY.
03:16:50.07 Unknown Okay.
03:16:50.14 Jeremy Grace Thank you.
03:16:50.22 Unknown Right.
03:16:50.30 Jeremy Grace Right.
03:16:50.39 Unknown Thank you.
03:16:50.47 Jeremy Grace they've given you like... Now, some of the other ones you object to, by all means you should pull them out.
03:16:50.91 Unknown you like.
03:16:52.04 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:16:52.08 Unknown projective.
03:16:54.03 Mayor Kelly Okay.

Thank you.

All right. So does anybody care to make a speech on this or can we just move to getting it done?
03:17:01.37 Unknown I don't care to make this speech, but I'd like to see Thank you.

us change the minimum. I don't think there's any reason to stay hard and fast with 300 square feet or the cubic feet in a refrigerator. I think you should say you have you have a kitchen with a refrigerator and You know?

Kitchen is separate.
03:17:28.15 Unknown you Thank you.
03:17:28.49 Unknown Jeremy, you're shaking your head. You want to make sure that it's
03:17:28.54 Unknown You want to make sure these are livable units and not force people to live in...

Thank you.
03:17:33.98 Unknown Well, of course, of course.
03:17:36.03 Jeremy Grace On the refrigerator, we wanted to make sure it wasn't like the refrigerator we had back in the community development department that is about the size of the stack. That would be, that's more akin to one that is in a pool house or a wet bar. And we don't want to be providing incentive for property owners to add a wet bar into their unit or to their house when in actuality its intended purpose is for a separate living
03:17:44.17 Mayor Kelly Yeah. Yeah. It's a good old situation.

Right.
03:17:53.60 Unknown You're making a wet bar out of the kitchen.
03:18:12.32 Mayor Kelly And units that exist in the city that exist at this point that are smaller than 300 square feet are grandfathered in and- Are they? We're only talking about units going forward, aren't we?
03:18:20.77 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:18:20.79 Jeremy Grace I think.
03:18:21.33 Patricia DeLuca So, Thank you.
03:18:22.90 Jeremy Grace Yeah.

on that issue.
03:18:25.04 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:18:25.23 Jeremy Grace Thank you.
03:18:25.55 Mayor Kelly You can't take away my entitlements if I built a 250 square foot unit in a building. Right, Mary?
03:18:25.60 Jeremy Grace You can't take away
03:18:31.27 Mary Wagner Lilly can address the amnesty units.
03:18:33.39 Mayor Kelly Okay.
03:18:33.70 Lily So the question is, is there a minimum or maximum size for amnesty units? Is that the question? No, my question is,
03:18:38.10 Mayor Kelly No, my question is, if I built a 10-unit apartment building and I have two units in that building that are 250 square feet, this has nothing to do with that. I have entitlements for that. I built them 10 years ago and they're mine and you can't take them away. Yeah. Okay.
03:18:39.11 Mary Wagner If I built their –
03:18:40.63 Unknown Mr. President.
03:18:52.07 Unknown Yeah, they're permitted in every corner through the house.
03:18:53.12 Unknown Yeah, legal.
03:18:54.13 Mayor Kelly Yeah, they're permitted and everything through the whole thing.
03:18:55.97 Unknown What if they're not permitted?
03:18:57.64 Mayor Kelly They're not? Well, that's, no.
03:18:57.71 Unknown Thank you.
03:18:57.88 Unknown Well, that's, no.
03:18:59.13 Unknown Right.
03:18:59.21 Mayor Kelly you know,
03:18:59.30 Unknown Thank you.
03:18:59.38 Unknown for me.
03:18:59.95 Unknown No.
03:19:00.38 Unknown No, that's not my question. I just don't want to be restrictive on...
03:19:00.39 Unknown .
03:19:07.06 Unknown on what people can live in. I have a tenant I had a tenant who lived for seven and a half years in 280 square feet.

I have another tenant.

who's lived for five years and 250 square feet. Now granted, those units are small, they have Murphy beds. In one of them there is a six foot by two foot kitchen with a refrigerator underneath the counter and you know, but a full stove and microwave and cabinets and everything.

So, it can be done.

You know, we have boat people who live on boats in less than 300 square feet. I just don't think that there's a reason to be so restrictive. That's all. And what does it...

You know, that's my point. If everyone here thinks we should, well fine. But I just don't think we should be.
03:20:09.34 Mayor Kelly um, Your staff idea here
03:20:15.45 Unknown Thank you.

Yeah, but it's a different...
03:20:22.00 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor, I have a question for staff.

Lily, I read an article where San Francisco was looking at doing micro units of something like 200 square feet. 230. 230 and selling them for like 400,000 or something. So I'm just wondering if, you know, we could look at, you know, lowering the minimum, you know, square foot for this.
03:20:33.27 Debbie And so...
03:20:33.81 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:20:44.09 Unknown this.

But those are deed restricted units and we're talking about general standard for non-deed restricted units as well, right? The 300 square feet. I mean, and that's an urban environment and this is more of a in between suburban and urban environment, so.
03:20:55.43 Councilmember Pfeiffer And,
03:20:55.63 Debbie Thank you.
03:21:01.57 Councilmember Pfeiffer I guess if I may continue my point being that to Councilmember Ford's comment about her two units, I think you would find that those are not the only examples out there. And so anyway, I don't want to get into comment.

That was my question. Thank you, Lily.
03:21:24.08 Mayor Kelly What Jeremy, Lily, what do you say?
03:21:29.05 Lily I don't think that 300 square feet came from a building code requirement. So a suggestion might be we could limit the minimum size to the minimum building code requirement size for a unit.
03:21:32.12 Mayor Kelly Wow.
03:21:32.45 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:21:34.72 Mayor Kelly We can.
03:21:35.05 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:21:42.04 Mayor Kelly What is that doing?
03:21:42.55 Lily And I don't know what that is.
03:21:44.23 Mayor Kelly If you said just $275 or $250 or something, would that be?
03:21:49.34 Mary Wagner Thank you.

I mean, I'm sorry. I believe efficiency unit is a defined term in the building code, and I'm trying to find it, but searching the building code in California is not that easy. But I believe it's a defined term.
03:22:02.36 Unknown The problem is I think, and I hear with older buildings or buildings that were built, you know, that there's a lot of quirky units in wherever you are, whether it's here or San Francisco. But the argument I think that's put forward in here when there's not a lot of incentives in this to build affordable units, right? And the idea is if you a unit of a certain size, you can get some, you can go around and create a more streamlined process, right?

but to build something that's essentially the size of a small bedroom.

lends the fact that I'll do that and I'll just use it.

and never rent it out.

because it's just another you know, part of my house, it may have a different entry, But...

The city requires multiple entries into houses already.

into single family units, right? So there's a way this becomes like a skirt around to add another 200 square feet to my house. And particularly in the suburban or quasi-suburban environment, You know, that's why on the flip side where the city always requires that you don't run 220 into one of these things because it will be, you know, now we're reversing course and by having a big fridge or having a and making sure that it's of a reasonable size for a human being to have a decent quality life. I'm not saying you can't have a decent quality life. It all depends on the building and the lights and all that kind of stuff in a small thing.

You know, it's relying on a Besides, I think San Francisco is trying a lot of creative things, but my memory is, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that those are all super deed restricted and they got
03:23:43.50 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:23:43.56 Unknown Thank you.
03:23:43.57 Mayor Kelly hooks attached to them. I thought they were actually going to bill market rate housing.
03:23:43.64 Unknown Thank you.

attached to them.
03:23:46.83 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:23:46.88 Unknown at 2.30.
03:23:46.90 Mayor Kelly it.

Is there any?

But that's the city. They build them in sizable unit conglomerations. So.
03:23:50.73 Unknown Yeah.
03:23:56.67 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:23:56.70 Unknown Mm-hmm.
03:23:57.07 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:23:57.09 Unknown Thank you.
03:23:57.11 Mayor Kelly I think I could support maybe 275 Thank you.
03:24:01.83 Unknown I don't know what the magic number is.
03:24:02.00 Mayor Kelly Yeah.

If that makes people feel better. But I think 300 is just kind of the standard for a less dense urban area. We're kind of a tweener. We're a dense area, but we're not as dense as San Francisco.

There are areas in
03:24:20.87 Unknown There are areas in the south end of town that are very dense. Old Town is extremely dense as compared to... No, but let me say this.
03:24:26.79 Mayor Kelly That's right.
03:24:26.98 Unknown I'm just confused.
03:24:30.03 Patricia DeLuca Yeah.
03:24:31.18 Unknown Let me say.
03:24:31.75 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:24:34.50 Unknown The only reason it's considered less dense is because you add Marion and some of the outlying streets to it. If you're in Old Town, which is between the Water, South Street, West Street, and North Street, it is extremely dense.

So that's what I'm talking about.

arbitrary boundaries.

Um...

So anyway, I don't see this as a killer for this, you know. I'd like to see it, but...

Because I have two very nice units.
03:25:16.40 Unknown Yeah, but you are already grandfathered. I'm not looking for...
03:25:20.23 Unknown I'm not looking to participate in this at all.

But there may be people in Old Town.

you know, or somewhere Certainly not in the north end of town. North end of town has a lot more room than Old Town.

So we're looking at
03:25:38.27 Unknown Unless you're in Whiskey Springs or the Anchorage, there's pockets everywhere, but you're right, their general feel to it is more...
03:25:39.20 Unknown whiskey springs or the Anchorage. There's pockets everywhere, but you're right.
03:25:44.45 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:25:46.61 Unknown Yeah, it's more open. Yeah.
03:25:46.64 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:25:46.66 Unknown Yeah.
03:25:46.96 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

that the way to resolve this is to Totally.
03:25:54.17 Unknown Well, yeah, meaning the minimum size thing.
03:25:57.09 Mayor Kelly Yeah.

Thank you.

So I would propose a 275 square foot minimum size. Does that bother you, John?

Okay, so how about you, Rachel? Does 250 bother you? Okay.
03:26:08.55 Unknown Does 250 bother you? Okay.
03:26:13.57 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:26:13.64 Joan Cox Okay.

Thank you.
03:26:19.13 Mayor Kelly Ray, are you okay?
03:26:22.82 Joan Cox So we went through this exercise with Michael Rex, and we tried to find the size of an efficiency unit. I think I remember we went through the building code, so we struggled with this as well. Okay. 250 seems a little small. Okay. All right. All right.
03:26:23.36 Mayor Kelly this exercise with Michael Riggs.
03:26:28.29 Unknown I think I remember.
03:26:32.31 Unknown Okay.

Okay. All right. All right. 275.
03:26:37.98 Mayor Kelly For a 250 minimum size. I'm sorry, 270.
03:26:40.30 Unknown I'm sorry, too silly.
03:26:41.72 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Second.
03:26:42.51 Councilmember Pfeiffer It's been late. Second.
03:26:45.77 Mayor Kelly All in favor?
03:26:47.22 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
03:26:47.26 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:26:47.27 Councilmember Pfeiffer I'm going to go.
03:26:47.54 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Anybody opposed?

Yeah.
03:26:50.14 Unknown Yeah.
03:26:50.45 Mayor Kelly physically.
03:26:50.99 Unknown Thank you.
03:26:51.04 Mayor Kelly You know.
03:26:51.07 Unknown Oh, that's fine.
03:26:52.96 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Nope, nope.

I don't know. Oh, sure. Yes. OK, we have four to one.
03:26:56.57 Unknown We have four to one.
03:26:57.74 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:26:57.75 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
03:26:57.77 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:26:57.80 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
03:26:57.82 Mayor Kelly .
03:26:57.89 Councilmember Pfeiffer I,
03:26:58.34 Mayor Kelly I think we're going to afford it. Yeah. Are you yes or no? Yeah, I'm yes.
03:26:59.56 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:26:59.58 Unknown Yeah.
03:27:00.03 Unknown Are you...
03:27:01.50 Councilmember Pfeiffer Yeah, I'm yes.

I did have a question though regarding the notice
03:27:07.17 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:27:07.86 Unknown Oh, five. There's no four to one. You said four to one.
03:27:08.37 Mayor Kelly Yeah.

You said four to one.
03:27:11.37 Unknown Thank you.
03:27:11.56 Mayor Kelly No. No, she said it in green.
03:27:11.57 Unknown No.
03:27:13.72 Mayor Kelly She agreed.

We all agree. Oh, you said sure? Yeah. Okay.
03:27:15.24 Unknown We all agree.
03:27:16.28 Dan Pusini Bye.
03:27:17.41 Unknown Yeah, I agree right now.
03:27:19.30 Mayor Kelly We got a photo.
03:27:19.45 Unknown We've got to fight us.
03:27:20.97 Unknown I did it.
03:27:21.61 Unknown you.

for.
03:27:22.02 Unknown you
03:27:22.02 Mayor Kelly Mr.
03:27:22.07 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor. No, this is consensus.
03:27:22.46 Unknown Bye.
03:27:22.59 Unknown Yeah.
03:27:22.90 Mayor Kelly So...
03:27:22.96 Unknown Bye.
03:27:22.98 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:27:23.13 Unknown Thank you.
03:27:23.23 Mayor Kelly This is consensus.
03:27:24.03 Unknown Mr. Mayor? Yeah, I came along.
03:27:24.28 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:27:24.42 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor.
03:27:26.10 Unknown Thank you.
03:27:26.15 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.
03:27:26.76 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
03:27:26.80 Unknown Yeah.
03:27:26.96 Councilmember Pfeiffer Bye.
03:27:27.22 Unknown No, no, no.
03:27:27.44 Councilmember Pfeiffer came along. And Mr. Mayor, I have a comment about the Mr. Mayor.
03:27:31.98 Unknown Mr. Mayor? Can we walk through the, go one just a second? Oh, yes. And then we'll get there.
03:27:34.14 Councilmember Pfeiffer Oh, yes.
03:27:34.67 Mayor Kelly Yeah.

Thank you.
03:27:35.33 Unknown SPEAKER 1, 1, 1.
03:27:35.91 Mayor Kelly I'm sorry.
03:27:36.11 Unknown There's a lot of people.
03:27:36.19 Mayor Kelly So, That takes one.

A parking exception for properties was available in parking in exchange for affordability
03:27:45.32 Unknown With available parking, okay.
03:27:45.42 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:27:45.48 Unknown And they've Bye.

This is saying if you could supply parking.

That if you, okay, so this is something that we talked about in this, when I met with Jeremy and Mary and Lily. How could I forget your name? It's my daughter's name, so I better remember that one. Everything's going all at once. Is that there are very few incentives in here to actually create an affordable unit. Right. And this was a possibility to do that where you say you could provide it, but given the hill slopes and everything, it becomes somewhat expensive to do that. But if you want to get out from underneath that, because the whole idea here is to create something that's affordable,
03:28:14.92 Unknown Right.
03:28:25.05 Patricia DeLuca What expense?

Mm-hmm.
03:28:32.34 Unknown In theory, that's one of the ideas, whether it's for your parents or whoever, just a Um, then get rid of the parking space for the unit, but you got to promise over here that you're going to rent it at below market rates.
03:28:46.34 Mayor Kelly Low market rates.
03:28:47.91 Unknown So to me, that's a good policy. I mean, there may be exceptions where that's very problematic, and someone could raise a, I don't know what the exception process would be, how that would work here, but if we tweak the noticing thing a little later, then it wouldn't be such a problem for the neighbor.

So,
03:29:04.82 Mayor Kelly But the likelihood of that producing a lot of units is low.
03:29:11.12 Unknown But it will produce some because we have a gentleman here in the audience.
03:29:12.64 Mayor Kelly produce as a
03:29:13.95 Councilmember Pfeiffer we have a gentleman here in the audience. Better than nothing. Mr. Mayor, I'd like to comment on that. I could, with regards to the deed restriction, because I guess this is where the parking in exchange for
03:29:16.67 Unknown Yeah.
03:29:28.30 Councilmember Pfeiffer a restriction that goes on the deed, I could see that for very low, to incentivize very low with the parking. I am not inclined to support that for moderate. We're already 288% over moderate housing and our housing element. So I don't think we need to incentivize the parking exchange for moderate deed restrictions.
03:29:48.58 Mayor Kelly I don't think we should.
03:29:53.86 Mayor Kelly Isn't there a very low and low?

there's
03:29:56.00 Councilmember Pfeiffer There's very low and low, but you also have moderate here.
03:29:56.02 Unknown There's various.

Thank you.
03:29:58.75 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
03:29:58.77 Unknown Yeah.
03:29:58.79 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
03:29:59.53 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
03:29:59.77 Unknown What's the moderate one bedroom? I can't remember what that comes out to be. What studio or one bedroom? For moderate? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
03:30:07.29 Lily Yeah.

Yeah. That's where it varies among households.
03:30:13.32 Unknown But this isn't market. Moderate is not market.
03:30:13.67 Lily But this is in
03:30:16.05 Unknown Bye.
03:30:16.07 Mayor Kelly Bye.
03:30:16.08 Unknown Market.
03:30:16.66 Lily No, markets between 80 and 120%.
03:30:19.59 Unknown Moderate is.
03:30:20.05 Unknown My...
03:30:21.01 Lily Thank you.

Modern is between 80% and 120% of the median.
03:30:25.40 Unknown Oh, okay. So I could go along with Linda and take away the... Take away modern? Yeah, just leave it low.
03:30:29.15 Mayor Kelly Stayaway moderate? Yeah, just leave it low. I'd be comfortable with it.

I need to. All right. So that's the salt. That's number one. Are you catching these?
03:30:34.46 Unknown That's number one.
03:30:37.21 Mayor Kelly Yes.
03:30:37.52 Lily And that's specific to this one parking exception if parking is feasible on the fence.
03:30:41.13 Unknown Yes.
03:30:43.05 Unknown Where is that table also? There's only two places where this one and another place where this table shows up.
03:30:51.00 Lily So the one that's in the ordinance right now is with bedroom number and size of the unit.
03:30:57.43 Unknown So if you want to get bigger, right, that's the bigger one. Or if you want a bigger bedroom, bigger unit, you
03:31:00.23 Lily Okay.
03:31:00.45 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:31:04.43 Mayor Kelly It's the same table. You still have to be a little lower, lower, lower, lower. OK. So that's fine. And then that'll look for size. Now the question is, do you want to leave these three
03:31:04.87 Unknown to feel that Okay.

No, the question is, do you want to leave these three criteria? Just two. Two for that one, too.
03:31:13.78 Mayor Kelly Mm-hmm.
03:31:14.83 Unknown So I just use the same table twice.
03:31:16.83 Mayor Kelly for
03:31:17.88 Unknown for this section where it's parking and for the other one where you want to get
03:31:21.31 Mayor Kelly That's going to be a person that probably does not own a car.

Because if you have a very low and low those those income levels are so low that it's going to
03:31:29.93 Unknown Thank you.
03:31:30.08 Unknown Thank you.
03:31:32.16 Mayor Kelly They're just not going to be able to force it.
03:31:32.98 Unknown I'll give you a call.
03:31:34.49 Unknown Thank you.
03:31:35.04 Mayor Kelly But that just is a comment.
03:31:36.70 Unknown Thank you.
03:31:36.71 Mayor Kelly MR.
03:31:37.03 Unknown What are you saying? You look troubled.
03:31:38.64 Lily You look troubled.

I don't know what the direction is.
03:31:42.70 Unknown So for number one, we're okay. Just get rid of the moderate. And for the other place where this table is referred to is where you want to build a bigger unit. Right. So you're getting away from essentially affordability. Is this number four?
03:31:43.01 Lily Oh, yeah.

Thank you.
03:31:55.44 Unknown No, this is totally different.
03:31:56.88 Mayor Kelly .
03:31:57.05 Lily I can give you the page reference in the staff report if you'd like.
03:32:01.50 Unknown Thank you.
03:32:01.52 Unknown Thank you.
03:32:01.87 Lily Thank you.
03:32:01.98 Unknown Because you're changing what, there's only one other place we're incentivizing an affordable unit where this table takes place and I can't remember where it
03:32:10.73 Lily It's on page 8 of the draft ordinance. So that's attachment 11.
03:32:13.18 Unknown Bye.
03:32:17.38 Unknown Change eight.
03:32:17.92 Lily In the one.

Thank you.
03:32:20.25 Unknown of the draft.
03:32:21.03 Lily The one in the panel.
03:32:21.89 Unknown The one in the current package.
03:32:23.39 Lily in their current package.

That's a very bottom line.
03:32:27.95 Unknown Right.

So again, is there...
03:32:39.96 Unknown And that's when I want an exception for all the stuff above, right? Or is it just for the bedroom size?
03:32:46.36 Lily It's just for the number of bedrooms and size.
03:32:49.06 Unknown and size. Right. That I have to deed restricted if I go above these thresholds, the 40% or 1,000 square feet.
03:32:56.26 Unknown Griffey.

I would still.
03:32:57.11 Lily The threshold is between 30% of the primary unit and 40% of the primary unit. In no case could they go above the 40%. And then there's the caps. It would be between 700 and 1,000.
03:33:05.46 Barbara Geisler Thank you.
03:33:05.61 Mayor Kelly Right.
03:33:05.68 Unknown Thank you.
03:33:08.73 Mayor Kelly The number of years already penalized this one, so I'd leave with a moderate in on this one. I'd leave the moderate in on this one. Okay. Because it has nothing to do with parking. It's fine with the scale. Yeah. No, it's fine. I just wanted to make sure we were... The better it gets for you, the longer you have to de-restrict it. Precisely. Right.
03:33:13.32 Unknown Thank you.
03:33:13.36 Lily Thank you.
03:33:13.41 Unknown at the same time.
03:33:13.98 Unknown Thank you.
03:33:14.03 Unknown Thank you.
03:33:14.17 Unknown I don't know.

It has been.

Thank you.
03:33:18.67 Unknown Yes.
03:33:19.03 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
03:33:19.74 Unknown Thank you.
03:33:19.75 Unknown you
03:33:19.80 Unknown Yeah.
03:33:19.87 Unknown .
03:33:19.94 Unknown Thank you.
03:33:20.04 Unknown Thank you.
03:33:20.06 Unknown Thank you.
03:33:20.27 Unknown Thank you.
03:33:20.39 Unknown Yeah, that's fine.
03:33:21.10 Unknown I just wanted to make sure we were...
03:33:28.56 Unknown Okay. So then we're done with one. Two we're okay with already. Four. Three I'm fine because she explained how it's going to work. So four. So here's my problem with four. And you guys correct me, Ray or Joan.
03:33:30.10 Mayor Kelly Okay.

So we're over.
03:33:42.60 Unknown So essentially, in whether if you're in a The way our ordinance works with particularly setbacks or, right now there's no way you go above 100%. You have to really try very hard to get approval above
03:33:49.13 Patricia DeLuca I'm sorry.

Thank you.
03:33:59.73 Unknown The way this is phrased is it lets you go above maximums.
03:34:03.78 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:34:03.81 Unknown Thank you.
03:34:03.85 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:34:06.92 Unknown Okay? And floor area coverage. And it also lets you, in an area where you would have, or you know how it works, the length of the building and stuff, so your setback is going to be even more than five feet,
03:34:15.98 Patricia DeLuca Mm-hmm.
03:34:18.68 Unknown you can just punt that whole setback to three feet.

and there's no deed restriction, there's no nothing that would require me to do that.

that I would have to get as a sort of payback for adding that extra unit because you could build within three feet of your neighbor's
03:34:31.28 Unknown you know,
03:34:35.83 Unknown window.

Thank you.
03:34:36.67 Unknown Thank you.
03:34:36.80 Unknown you know, or property line.

and Maybe I'm offset on the windows or whatever.

I no longer have to go along with setback requirements. They just have to be the absolute minimum in the zoning ordinance, which is three feet.

And I can oversize my property by square footage or coverage and I think by 5%.

So my worry here with this stuff is it's like, okay, there's one thing where you put new hurdles in place. Because we're not, there's nothing you're, And the other thing is we're trying to make this also This wouldn't, could this be approved ministerially with these over to the three foot that have to go through the CUP process, right? But it's giving you a 5% and the minimum for the setbacks as a I have to go for an approval for that, but it's sort of given me a leg up to get that extra coverage and square footage because it says it's allowed if you get the CUP, right?
03:35:41.74 Lily It's a maximum exception that's put in the ordinance. So someone can't go above that. They can request something less than that.
03:35:43.61 Unknown Right.
03:35:49.89 Unknown Right. So, you know, Mike, you know, just remembering
03:35:51.16 Lily Yeah.
03:35:54.43 Unknown seven years ago when everybody was trying to max everything out.

that this is a, it's sort of like it creates a weird set of incentives to oversize a property without like some necessarily socially redeeming gift to the public on the back side.
03:36:15.07 Mayor Kelly for affordability covenant.
03:36:16.64 Unknown There's nothing in there for that.
03:36:18.39 Mayor Kelly though.
03:36:18.71 Unknown So it's...
03:36:19.39 Mayor Kelly It's just so.
03:36:20.23 Unknown No, no, no.

That's the question is if you're
03:36:23.00 Mayor Kelly I think that's the question.
03:36:23.59 Unknown Thank you.
03:36:23.64 Mayor Kelly you
03:36:23.83 Dan Pusini Thank you.
03:36:24.11 Unknown The question is, do you do it at all or do you tie it to some, okay, if you're going to max, over max your property, or build within three feet, whereas I thought my setback, because I'm your neighbor, is going to be at least five or seven, or depending on how long your building is.

You know, it's sort of like, okay, you're imposing on the neighborhood.
03:36:42.29 Unknown Right.
03:36:43.60 Unknown If you're not doing something that's that's good.

or let's say you have to build your parking deck to accommodate the ADU.

three feet from the property line and it's a hill and it's elevated. It could create some really weird scenarios where it sort of
03:36:58.11 Unknown for it.
03:36:58.64 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:37:00.31 Unknown you're sort of, you know, people's problems with whether it's affordable or Again, my whole read of this, and you guys convinced me, is by building smaller units, they're going to be affordable. That's the whole read here, basically. But...
03:37:11.89 Unknown Thank you.
03:37:11.99 Patricia DeLuca THE FAMILY.
03:37:12.53 Unknown Right.
03:37:15.97 Unknown if you do that and you're sort of, but I don't have to make them affordable by dedicating them you know, in a way it becomes a way of sort of skirting uh...

You don't want to create a scenario, and I know you guys have thought about this, and I've only thought about it since I got your language.

that you don't want to create a scenario, you don't want to make it more difficult to do things, but you don't want to make it easier too if there's no way to enforce or get some benefit for the public good. So correct me, help me be uncrazy.
03:37:44.69 Dan Pusini Thank you.
03:37:44.77 Unknown you know.
03:37:44.98 Jeremy Grace I'm just kidding.
03:37:45.70 Unknown Sure.
03:37:45.72 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:37:50.34 Unknown of sure.
03:37:50.43 Jeremy Grace Correct me.

representing the loyal opposition here. My advice to hear, Leon, I wanted to provide the argument on the other side. There's no right and wrong way, just different things. But the working group and the staff was looking at the possible 5% exceptions as allowing a property owner who happens to be real squeezed in their situation Thank you. 5% exceptions as allowing a property owner who happens to be real squeezed in their situation, having the option of being able to come to the Planning Commission and request approval of a conditional use permit. And of course, this would be noticed to property owners within 300 feet. So if there is the neighbor across the property line who may be impacted by this, they certainly have the opportunity to come and pound on the podium and say this is a bad idea for blah, blah, blah reasons. Or they may say, you know, it doesn't bother me at all and it does facilitate the creation of these accessory doll units, which we want to go back to. This was part of the deal we worked with HCD that we were going to provide these. So that's the insult. From a staff perspective, we didn't feel that it was necessary to burden these exceptions with the deed restriction. We felt that there would be proper debate and consideration of these by the Planning Commission. But if there is a deed restriction, staff is concerned that that is going to, that places not just a deed restriction on that little 5% that may be intruding, or that part that may be intruding to a setback, but it places a deed restriction on the entire unit and these exceptions may be necessary to make the unit even feasible. So it's not ministerial? There's no right and wrong way, but I just want to
03:37:54.46 Unknown opposition here.
03:38:01.89 Unknown Thank you.
03:38:01.94 Unknown .
03:38:02.09 Unknown I got it.
03:38:02.27 Unknown side.
03:38:02.71 Unknown Yeah.
03:38:02.97 Unknown Thank you.
03:38:03.02 Unknown Thank you.
03:38:03.03 Robert Forsyth Thank you.
03:38:04.94 Unknown No.
03:38:05.21 Unknown Just differently.
03:38:06.04 Unknown That's right.
03:38:16.42 Patricia DeLuca Yeah.

Yeah.
03:38:54.57 Mayor Kelly back to
03:39:19.43 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:39:19.48 Lars Jensen Right.
03:39:19.97 Patricia DeLuca There is a change.
03:39:20.86 Unknown Yeah.
03:39:31.81 Patricia DeLuca Mm-hmm.
03:39:38.75 Adam Politzer Yeah.

So it's not.
03:39:42.04 Mayor Kelly I'm going to stop ministering.
03:39:43.17 Adam Politzer Thank you.
03:39:43.20 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:39:43.27 Adam Politzer a long way back.
03:39:44.03 Unknown Thank you.
03:39:44.10 Mayor Kelly you
03:39:44.28 Unknown But why, so yeah, so now I hear you, and there's no right or wrong answer here, it's just kind of like trying to make a policy decision.

The need for the exception, A, above 100%,
03:39:56.77 Adam Politzer or whatever.
03:39:56.80 Unknown Thank you.

or whatever.

Because you can always come in and ask for more.

Zoning arts doesn't say you can't get more if a lot of people come in and ask. It just sort of has a hard cap and you can always ask for But, So why do you need the exception for these categories to create these units? Is it in a small, we're talking about the idea is in a small lot.

because that would be where your squeeze, right?
03:40:20.02 Jeremy Grace or log in as photographic constraints for whatever reason. We didn't want to have to, we felt that providing an exception process through the CUP approach would be facilitated more than having to make the Planning Commission, make findings for these which the state sets a real high bar there and is difficult to clear. And our Planning Commission takes those very seriously.
03:40:23.16 Unknown Thank you.
03:40:38.99 Unknown for the understanding.
03:40:47.68 Unknown So I can understand that for maybe coverage or Floria for a small amount, but the setback issue is the one that really sort of like, okay, that's where you're sort of becoming.

your Because 5% of a small lot or even a big lot and it's on a hillside lot that would have some constraint here, you know, okay. But when you're going from 8 feet to 3 as your setback, that's a real change, particularly if the other property is close to the other property.
03:41:20.72 Jeremy Grace I'm sorry.

Well, the other property is supposed to be five, so. Well, it could be, you know, in the. I did my pick. I'm not going to. No, but what, how does that. I didn't possibly call it. Yeah.
03:41:24.07 Unknown Well, it could be, you know, in the...

Yeah, but what, how does that work?
03:41:28.33 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
03:41:28.35 Unknown Yes.
03:41:28.60 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:41:28.67 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
03:41:29.57 Mayor Kelly Well, I think what we're doing here, though, is we're building an ADU ordinance that, first of all, supports our housing element, okay? And secondly, puts it all under one roof, okay? It's one-stop shopping. No, but nobody.
03:41:39.02 Patricia DeLuca Yeah.
03:41:45.14 Unknown But if you came in from, you can do these in multi-unit in R3 or R25 and not have to comply with the same stuff if I built an apartment building.

right, and just call them all apartments instead of an assistant law unit. I have, this provides is a way around those restrictions that if you built a multi-unit building, I couldn't do these things.
03:42:06.15 Unknown You know?
03:42:06.59 Unknown You know?
03:42:07.28 Unknown Thank you.

you
03:42:08.23 Unknown you
03:42:08.43 Unknown Okay.
03:42:08.82 Unknown Thank you.
03:42:08.97 Unknown Thank you.
03:42:09.02 Unknown you could we hear from the the task committee and stir as to what they did and I think we need to follow our procedure defend your
03:42:13.66 Unknown Sure.
03:42:17.49 Mayor Kelly You see what you're saying?
03:42:23.63 Joan Cox Well, you're exactly right. We were thinking, you know, when we put together the housing element, we did a site survey, and we looked at sites throughout Sausalito, and there are some sites that have a very small place where an ADU could go. And so that was what we had in mind when we wanted those homeowners to be able to place an ADU, but topographically or because of lot size constraints, there's only one place on that lot where the ADU could go. And so we wanted to build into the ordinance a potential accommodation for that owner with oversight by the Planning Commission so that they don't take advantage as Jonathan is concerned that they could. We were hoping that with oversight by the Planning Commission, the Planning Commission would see, well, no, we're not going to let you put an 800 square foot ADU three feet from your neighbor. That's not what this is intended for. This is for where you have a 300 square foot ADU, but the only place it will fit is inside
03:42:52.96 Unknown with.
03:43:01.33 Patricia DeLuca Bye.
03:43:01.38 Unknown here.
03:43:01.65 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.

Thank you.
03:43:01.85 Unknown Thank you.
03:43:01.92 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:43:19.57 Unknown All right.
03:43:25.50 Unknown Right.

So is there a set, and you mentioned just some of them just now, like of qualifiers that, you know, if you meet these criteria, you can apply for or you can request this type of thing, like what you said, whether it was lot size or topography or whatever. Is that something, Jeremy, you think, you know, some of those as a way to kind of say if you've got some hardship, in a sense.
03:43:49.19 Unknown Oh.
03:43:49.56 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.

that it lets you, because it seems strange to create some incentives that where multi-units are discouraged and second unit is encouraged, you know what I mean?
03:44:04.26 Lily Thank you.

So there's not a set of criteria in the ordinance at this point, but there are two findings in particular that the Planning Commission would need to make for the conditional use permit. And the first one, for all exceptions, is that the exception will not create a significant adverse impact on any adjacent property, the surrounding neighborhood, or the general public good. The second one that needs to be made for all exceptions is that the parcel and the arrangement of existing and proposed physical improvements on the parcel can accommodate the exception without significant The second one that needs to be made for all exceptions is that the parcel and the arrangement of existing and proposed physical improvements on the parcel can accommodate the exception without significantly adversing effect
03:44:13.69 Unknown Thank you.
03:44:23.85 Patricia DeLuca THE FAMILY.
03:44:38.68 Lily that language needs to be revised, significantly adversely affecting the views, privacy, or access to light and air of neighboring properties.
03:44:40.15 Unknown Uh.
03:44:47.78 Mayor Kelly That's broader than a number, frankly.
03:44:50.16 Unknown No, I know that. And that's definitely a start. I think in the lot split language, there's sort of these weird like that deal with what Joan was kind of.

minimum lot size and lots of criteria that have these sort of conditional, like if these are an issue for your lot, then you sort of get around, you can go through this process.

Does you recall the, you know, no.
03:45:19.17 Unknown Uh, uh, uh, uh,
03:45:19.49 Unknown Thank you.
03:45:19.52 Unknown Thank you.
03:45:19.56 Unknown Thank you.
03:45:23.01 Unknown Mr. Mayor, I'm not feeling well. I have to leave, as I mentioned earlier. Only one thing that I'd like to say is that I don't think we should become so restrictive that it becomes like rent control.

you know, if a person is where people don't bill.

And if we're putting all these restrictions on then that's what happens. People won't build.

And we have an obligation to build ADUs to prove that we can and get right with the state. And the second thing I'd just like to recommend is that we as a city notice people within the normal realm that this is happening. So we don't have something like we had tonight.

to deal with. I mean it's a different subject but
03:46:14.55 Councilmember Pfeiffer I mean, it's a different...

Well, it's, yeah, it falls under seven.
03:46:19.72 Unknown Yeah.

Thank you.

Thanks.
03:46:21.74 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thanks, that's good.
03:46:22.43 Mayor Kelly That's good.

for
03:46:23.73 Unknown Bye.
03:46:23.90 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

All right.
03:46:28.47 Mayor Kelly I think we've got it surrounded, guys.

It isn't imperfect. Somebody can slip under the wagon train, but for the most part, we got the wagon train in a circle here. And I'm reluctant to try to
03:46:37.84 Patricia DeLuca THE FAMILY.
03:46:46.21 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:46:46.26 Unknown So you, just to remember Jeremy, or Mary, I forget who I talked about this with, was that you want to stay away from having to make findings. Is that what your main criteria is with some of these things? Like so say in variances, the criteria for a variance are...
03:46:47.10 Mayor Kelly just to really
03:47:04.42 Unknown that there are exceptional or extraordinary circumstances or conditions applying to a property. And then there's a couple of plays on that language. Or it's granting it a right to you, which I wouldn't give to the other guy next door. That's sort of some of these essentially findings that you're getting a special privilege.

some of those, like those first ones where it's a sort of, you know, you've got a weird situation on your particular property, that couldn't be inserted here for, to kind of get to this sort of bonus level of, I mean, I'm for ADUs, I think it's a great thing, You guys are trying to foresee with the windows and objective standard that would sort of, you know, account for privacy and I'm trying to think about how do I, how do we avoid somebody coming to the planning commission Five years from now, totally different people, and there's something that looks like almost hard language in here. Oh, 105%. You know, and the institutional knowledge kind of goes by the wayside because new people are sitting there.
03:48:02.32 Patricia DeLuca $100.
03:48:10.74 Unknown Um, You really want to make it an exception where someone can build it.

get some social good out of it. You want to make some sort of exception where you can oversize your property that you've got to sort of claim, hey, this is the only way I can
03:48:24.96 Mayor Kelly But don't lose sight of the fact that it is an ADU.
03:48:25.62 Unknown I'm sorry.
03:48:29.03 Mayor Kelly It's not like they're going and they're asking for a second story or something. They're asking for a 300 or now 275 foot.
03:48:35.41 Unknown I know, but a thousand square foot EDU, which is, I think, the max that you can build.
03:48:39.84 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:48:39.90 Unknown it.
03:48:40.05 Jeremy Grace So,
03:48:40.10 Unknown Thank you.
03:48:41.80 Jeremy Grace Well, 5,000 square feet at the administrative level is completing the interior conversion. Right. To get a bunch of 700 square feet, you have to go to the Planning Commission. Right.
03:48:49.01 Unknown to get a bunch of 700 square feet that's going to the Planning Commission. Which would only trigger like a floor area one in this particular.
03:48:54.93 Jeremy Grace Well to get to To get the 5% It takes planning commission
03:48:57.75 Mayor Kelly Maybe you are both 700 square feet.
03:48:59.40 Unknown Thank you.
03:49:00.67 Mayor Kelly Right. The whole thing goes to the Planning Commission. See, that makes me comfortable. If it was ministerial, I'd be right with you. But this is going to hit the Planning Commission, and they're going to be all over it. So to get to 105, or the... To get to the 105...
03:49:02.84 Jeremy Grace Yes.
03:49:10.49 Unknown So to get to 105, or the... Plus the neighbors. To get to the 105, or whatever it go, there. Sorry, you move around. You'd have to be a CUP process to get to the over... Right. And the setback reduction. Right.
03:49:21.78 Unknown to the over and the setback reduction. Right. Yeah? Okay. Yeah, it's going to get.
03:49:25.73 Unknown Yeah? OK. Yeah, it's going to get it. All right, OK, OK, OK. All right, so that's that one. So the other one was seven.
03:49:29.88 Unknown Thank you.
03:49:29.90 Mayor Kelly All right.
03:49:30.33 Unknown Okay.
03:49:33.25 Mayor Kelly Seven.
03:49:34.03 Unknown Thank you.
03:49:34.18 Mayor Kelly And I agree with these guys.
03:49:35.47 Unknown And I agree with these guys that you've got to send people notices.
03:49:39.55 Mayor Kelly Is there a problem adding notice for comment?
03:49:42.99 Jeremy Grace We had poor timing on the notice requirement. We didn't know Todd was going to be ahead of us tonight. We see that. Now you're screwed now. I think we accept that the notice is going to happen. You're going to get a very job.
03:49:43.34 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:49:43.40 Unknown Thank you.
03:49:49.17 Joan Cox We see that.
03:49:50.67 Mayor Kelly That's true.
03:49:51.95 Joan Cox except that the notice is going to
03:49:54.01 Unknown Yeah.

Thank you.
03:49:55.44 Joan Cox We wanted noticing. We had a bit of a debate with the staff, and so we were happy that you wanted noticing as well.
03:50:00.79 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mm-hmm.
03:50:01.22 Unknown Yeah.
03:50:01.57 Unknown Thank you.
03:50:02.01 Unknown Thank you.
03:50:02.03 Mary Wagner Yeah. I'd like to. This is not a ministerial as well. Mandated.
03:50:02.03 Councilmember Pfeiffer Yeah. I'd like to. This is not a ministerial as well. Mandated. Mandated. Noticing. Yes.

Thank you.
03:50:07.68 Mary Wagner So it's not a pitch, and it's not even a... Well, it's not even that. It's an issue about trying to balance the state requirement for ministerial permits versus making so many revisions that it starts to look less ministerial and more discretionary. So the conversations that we had with the working group and that we had with staff were at some point you crossed that line. And if you're going to notice neighbors and give them an opportunity to challenge a project, it looks more discretionary than ministerial. So it's a balancing process.

Act, and really a policy question for the Council and the working group, to their credit, felt very strongly about notice and about a number of these issues and wanted to include a noticing requirement. So it is a question for the Council on whether you want to include that. And if you do, you know, that people need to understand that the...

that the input that they have is to challenge whether or not that project meets the ministerial standards that are created. So for them to be able to say, you know, no, it doesn't meet the privacy issue, or there is an impact to my view that staff didn't take into account because they didn't look out of my dining room window or whatever it is. Story polls are going to be required, which gives staff the ability to make a ministerial determination about whether there is a view impact. So I think it's not a question of whether notice is good or not. Notice is good. The question is what do people think that gives them the right to do?
03:51:50.90 Mayor Kelly Is this notice on Ministerial versus Planning Commission?
03:51:56.17 Mary Wagner Well, clearly for CUP, it's the full notice of a public hearing. It's a question of ministerial permits so that it addresses the issue that the council's been dealing with, is how do neighbors know what's coming down the pipeline if they only know about it when a building permit is stuck to the window and the construction trucks pull up. So it's also balanced against the, well, what is their remedy? If there is notice given, what do they get to do with that notice? Is it just that they know? Do they have an appeal right? And is it the notice that staff gives for a zoning permit, which is just posting it on the site? Or is it a full-blown 300-foot notice?
03:51:59.76 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:52:00.32 Unknown Thank you.
03:52:00.47 Mayor Kelly It's a question
03:52:11.81 Patricia DeLuca to the...
03:52:34.88 Mayor Kelly Right now I can build 300 square feet at my house by coming in and showing Jeremy a set of plans, and he looks them over and says, they're perfect, I love it, you've got plenty of lot coverage, and you sign my permit, and I go take a green thing and tack it, or yellow or whatever you give me, and tack it to my mailbox or to my post in front of my house or whatever, and that's the notice to my neighbors that I'm building something there.

And they have 10 days to appeal that if they don't like it. Is that right?

Right. That's right.

Okay.
03:53:02.79 Jeremy Grace That's the zoning permit. Right. And that's 300 feet. That's at post on state in front of the house. And that's 300 feet or less. No, that's just posted at the construction site.
03:53:04.07 Mayor Kelly Right. And that's 300 feet.

Right. In front of the house.

Well, that's not.

something else.
03:53:16.31 Jeremy Grace Thank you.
03:53:16.33 Mayor Kelly Well, let me finish.
03:53:16.43 Jeremy Grace Miss.
03:53:19.02 Mayor Kelly So if I build more than 300 feet, If I'm going to put more than 300 feet on my house,
03:53:24.88 Jeremy Grace then that goes into design review, and that's a mailed notice, close to post notice.
03:53:29.01 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

And could that still remain ministerial, or does that have to go to Planning Commission?
03:53:34.01 Jeremy Grace The staff is allowed some degree of latitude.
03:53:35.50 Mayor Kelly from the Some degree of latitude?

Right. So how critical do you think the 300, or how critical do you think the notice, the ministerial notice was? Well, it's back to, it's like building the straw that broke the camel's back kind of thing. Yeah.
03:53:45.03 Jeremy Grace Mr. Well, I think it's back to It's like THE END OF THE END OF THE Thank you.
03:53:50.77 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:53:50.99 Jeremy Grace Well, it's more that we notify people that someone 200 feet away from the project site that an ADU is going in here. And so the staff's fear, I think, is that we're building up an expectation that community input is going to be able to be taken into whether the project should get built or not. And that's not what we're about here. The project's going to get built anyway. Does it meet the height requirements? Does it meet the setback requirements? Does it meet the privacy requirements? It's a checklist. And so we're worried we're building up and not at our expectations.
03:54:12.47 Mayor Kelly And that's not what we're about here. The project's going to get built anyway.

Yeah.
03:54:20.75 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
03:54:21.12 Unknown Thank you.
03:54:21.19 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:54:21.28 Unknown I love the problem.
03:54:21.80 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:54:21.85 Unknown Thank you.
03:54:21.90 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
03:54:21.93 Unknown Thank you.

episode.
03:54:27.74 Unknown But the state, the kind of intent statement in front of the state law, which we're trying to comply with here, and I'm all for that, is that if you're trying to essentially remove requirements that are not or create a situation where it's not arbitrary, it's not excessive, and it's not more burdensome. So it's unreasonably restrict the ability of homeowners to create second units. So if you're not creating another set of hurdles, if you're saying whatever the criteria for administerial review now are noticing, if you just use that same criteria, Okay, you want to build a small unit, God bless. If you want to build something bigger that's over your 300 square feet or whatever the noticing is now, you've got to notice people. Not just the... What he's talking about is more almost like the zoning administration thing is just posted on the site versus actually...
03:55:13.74 Unknown Thank you.
03:55:17.00 Unknown Thank you.
03:55:17.01 Mayor Kelly or whatever the notice is.

Well, that's just...
03:55:26.43 Mayor Kelly Can you build a 1,000-square-foot ADU, a 750-square-foot ADU, without a bi-ministerial notice?
03:55:36.07 Jeremy Grace Thank you.

The low 700 is ministerial, over 700 is planning committee.
03:55:41.77 Mayor Kelly That makes me comfortable, and I think that we do have to be careful we don't create an ordinance that is not the ordinance that's going to get us what we need.
03:55:50.21 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
03:55:50.23 Mayor Kelly I can't put too many roadblocks on you, so yeah. Mr. Mayor.
03:55:50.27 Councilmember Pfeiffer Ms.

Mr. Mayor, comment? Yeah, I really feel strongly that we need the notice regardless. And I also think the notice should be 500 square feet, because not 300.
03:56:08.92 Mayor Kelly And. Okay, go ahead. Finish your comment.
03:56:12.09 Councilmember Pfeiffer This is my opinion, and I personally feel very strongly about that.
03:56:17.83 Mayor Kelly Okay. The hours are getting late, and this is the last one of these items we have to deal with, so I'm going to call for a kind of a consensus or no consensus vote here.
03:56:22.15 Councilmember Pfeiffer So.
03:56:26.78 Unknown Yeah, I would tend to lean towards the 300 square feet. Whatever the criteria for ministerial review is in terms of... Yes, Mary.
03:56:33.75 Mary Wagner And actually the language that is suggested in your staff report is the same as for an administrative design review, which currently I believe is 100. No, it's not three.
03:56:39.77 Unknown Right.
03:56:45.35 Mary Wagner Did it get changed? Okay, it's not changed in mine. So it was changed in the most recent round of changes to the zoning ordinance, so it's now 300. And that, you know, I hear Council Member Pfeiffer the desire to get more notice out to people, but to the extent that we're going to go beyond what we even require for an administrative design review, we're really going beyond the line between a discretionary and a ministerial. So I would caution the council to kind of, if you're going to ask staff to provide notice, that we keep it within the parameters of what we do for other types of projects. So if you want to go beyond the just sticking the green sign on the property and you want to provide some mailed notice with a description to people that this project is pending and that if you, you know, here's what a ministerial project gets and that if they don't believe it falls within those criteria, they can
03:56:46.33 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
03:56:46.35 Unknown Thank you.
03:56:46.40 Patricia DeLuca It's not changing the mind.

Thank you.
03:56:52.19 Unknown Yeah.
03:57:06.55 Patricia DeLuca Yeah, I see.

discretion.
03:57:25.94 Patricia DeLuca It's over four.
03:57:37.33 Mary Wagner submit an appeal or an objection that will be considered
03:57:40.20 Unknown Yeah.
03:57:41.67 Mary Wagner then I think that we're trying to find the balance between and ministerial process that provides for the creation of housing with the existing neighbors' right and desire to know what's going on.
03:57:56.57 Mayor Kelly What's that?

What happened?

What do you expect the average size of an ADU to be? Do you have any clues?
03:58:12.26 Jeremy Grace 699 square feet.
03:58:14.24 Mayor Kelly That was so scientific, I just got to believe it.

Yeah.
03:58:19.79 Jeremy Grace Second, I figured that why would they construct it as well? Why would they construct over 700?
03:58:22.35 Mayor Kelly Why would they construct over 700?

Thank you.

So what we're saying is that our existing ordinance is a 300 number,
03:58:30.66 Jeremy Grace Correct.
03:58:31.04 Mayor Kelly In order to get ADUs built in the city and comply with our housing element and what we've promised the state we would do, we're going to raise that level to 700 for an ADU.

Right?

Thank you.

Thank you.
03:58:42.38 Unknown Yes.
03:58:42.67 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

But what stops somebody from coming in and saying, I'm going to build an ADU, and then they don't?

you're going to catch them and not let them do that, right?
03:58:53.03 Jeremy Grace They construct the unit but is not the unit.
03:58:53.13 Mayor Kelly Mr.

They try to get an ADU for 700 feet when they would otherwise be having to go out and notice everybody in the neighborhood, they were going to 700 square feet.

So we're giving them an exemption, if you will, from the 300 rule.

And as long as it's an ADU, it's a 700-square-foot rule. So here comes one of the smart guys in town. He figures out how he's going to be able to... Notice I'm making that a male, by the way, not a female. So he comes and he figures that out. Did you think of anyone in particular? And he figures that out, and he skirts our 300 rule under the guise of being an ADU.
03:59:39.64 Jeremy Grace What we put in here is to be an ADU, it has to have a kitchen, it has to have a stove, it has to have a refrigerator of a certain size, it has to have counters and sinks.
03:59:47.05 Mayor Kelly It has to have a separate door, a stove.

The surgery.

Yes.
03:59:55.25 Mayor Kelly And that's not a wet bar, right? So yeah, we want to make it larger than we want to avoid
03:59:56.60 Jeremy Grace So we want to avoid wet bar being the definition of an ADU.
03:59:59.55 Mayor Kelly Yeah.

I go back to I'm really concerned about the ministerial issue. I think that that's one place a state can come hammering on our door.

So I'm...
04:00:10.91 Unknown Yeah, but all it says in here is that notwithstanding every local agency that that you can get a special permit for the creation of a second unit As long as the second unit complies with requirements relating to height, setback, lot coverage, architectural review, site plan review, fees, charges, and other zoning requirements generally applicable to residential construction in the zone in which the property is located.

So it's saying if you require this in the same I don't think this is a huge – okay, I won't say that because I'm getting in trouble. But as far as – it's just saying don't make it worse than what you require to build anything else. And that's all I'm saying as far as the noticing. Make it the same as if you've got to build something else. If somebody comes in with crazy, you know, objections, you know, there's smart enough people sitting that we hopefully appoint and sit in the planning commission that can see through those. Right? Maybe it delays you a little bit.
04:00:44.58 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
04:01:01.74 Unknown We're not...

But at the same time, it's not going to change your construction costs if you see through, you know, just somebody coming in, I don't want anything.
04:01:09.80 Mary Wagner Bye.

to see.
04:01:11.83 Unknown Thank you.
04:01:11.84 Mary Wagner So, Mr. Mayor, we do submit our ADU ordinance to the state for review. You know, if you want to include this provision and obviously if they have an objection to it,
04:01:16.35 Unknown Right.

you.
04:01:18.41 Patricia DeLuca Yeah.
04:01:22.29 Mary Wagner we would bring it back to you.

I don't believe they give a real detailed review of these. I think they file them.

But let me...
04:01:29.89 Unknown But let me, let me. Strike that from the right.
04:01:32.43 Mary Wagner Well, I don't think they're not required to give a, it's not the same as submitting your housing element to them, let's put it that way.

So there's also the option of including it and seeing what happens. And if it becomes a major obstacle, we would need to come back to you and say it's preventing the development
04:01:46.91 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
04:01:46.93 Mayor Kelly is preventing
04:01:48.62 Mary Wagner of units or there's a challenge to it and somebody raises the issue that way.
04:01:52.94 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
04:01:52.95 Mary Wagner Thank you.
04:01:52.97 Mayor Kelly All right, so 300 then is what you're saying? I'm gonna go with the 300.
04:01:55.81 Mary Wagner Well, that's what staff included. There's also the zoning permit noticing, which is just the posting on the project site.
04:02:05.12 Unknown Well that's for under 3N square feet, right? You just create a category under 3N square feet. Just trying to give you the options of what would
04:02:09.03 Mary Wagner Just trying to give you the options of what staff currently does with zoning.
04:02:11.23 Unknown What staff currently does with zoning Thank you.
04:02:13.14 Unknown Thank you.
04:02:14.23 Mary Wagner So what staff currently does with zoning permits, they're not 300 square feet. They're posted on the site. What staff included in your ordinance for consideration is what's done with an administrative design review permit, which is 300 feet.
04:02:25.62 Mayor Kelly Okay, I'm going with three nine. Let's see what happens. Okay. All right, everybody go with that?
04:02:31.63 Councilmember Pfeiffer So just, Mr. Mayor, just to clarify, we are looking at mandated noticing for all ADU.
04:02:38.63 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
04:02:38.68 Mary Wagner Thank you.
04:02:38.72 Mayor Kelly So.
04:02:38.80 Mary Wagner Thank you.
04:02:38.89 Mayor Kelly Absolutely not.
04:02:40.67 Councilmember Pfeiffer for noticing that it won't be there.
04:02:40.74 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
04:02:40.76 Mary Wagner What we're adding is a requirement for the ministerial review. The staff level review is now going to have a noticing component. Anything that goes to the Planning Commission, automatically has a noticing component. So this is new units that are coming in
04:02:52.86 Patricia DeLuca and how we can help.
04:02:56.18 Mary Wagner for an ADU that meets the staff level review.
04:03:03.27 Unknown Yes.
04:03:04.62 Councilmember Pfeiffer Okay, so I was looking for mandated noticing of new ADUs I guess we're talking about 300 feet because there's an issue that the state might say that we're not looking, we're blurring the line with ministerial. So I'm a little confused because are we looking at mandated noticing going out for ministerial?
04:03:31.17 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
04:03:31.18 Lily Mandy.

I think there's confusion here between a 300 square foot unit So I think that's a good one.

Thank you.
04:03:41.16 Unknown Thank you.
04:03:41.19 Lily Thank you.
04:03:41.21 Unknown THE END OF THE END OF THE
04:03:41.36 Lily Thank you.
04:03:41.38 Unknown Thank you.
04:03:41.39 Lily Yes and yes to the question.
04:03:43.30 Mary Wagner We are requiring you noticing for accessory dwelling units that fall within the staff level review. So I believe the answer to your question is yes.
04:03:50.30 Lily THE END OF
04:03:50.37 Councilmember Pfeiffer you
04:03:50.54 Lily your question.

as a result.

Thank you.
04:03:51.48 Councilmember Pfeiffer Yes.
04:03:51.92 Lily Yeah.
04:03:52.24 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
04:03:52.28 Lily Thank you.
04:03:52.82 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
04:03:53.91 Lily Thank you.
04:03:53.96 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.

Thank you. And that's 300 square feet.
04:03:57.64 Lily It's a 300 what rate?
04:04:00.02 Councilmember Pfeiffer I'm not square feet, 300 foot radius. Thank you.
04:04:04.38 Mayor Kelly All the units are what?

No, I...
04:04:07.06 Unknown I thought we were trying to talk, whatever the current level of threshold for ministerial review noticing would be the same, so we don't want to change that.
04:04:12.20 Lily of you noticing.
04:04:17.03 Lily So that's been the confusion between the 300 square foot unit and 300 feet radius noticing area. So the current requirement for a design review permit to trigger for a design review permit, you're building more than, generally, if you're building more than 300 square feet, you would require a design review permit. And that would, the design review permit requires noticing. If it's below that, then it's just the zoning permit, which is posted on site, no advance notice. Right, right. But the language in the ordinance, or the language in your staff report would require all ADUs, regardless of size, to be noticed, 300, a 300 foot radius.
04:04:20.20 Unknown Amen.
04:04:23.98 Unknown All right.
04:04:24.14 Unknown Thank you.
04:04:25.49 Unknown Thank you.

THE END OF
04:04:34.72 Barbara Geisler Right.

Correct.
04:04:43.83 Unknown on site, no advance.
04:04:45.03 Unknown Right. Right.
04:04:59.00 Lily Thank you.
04:04:59.02 Councilmember Pfeiffer Yes.

That's what I would support.
04:05:03.40 Unknown Well, Thank you.
04:05:04.03 Mayor Kelly Well, I don't know.
04:05:05.04 Unknown Well, you have a minimum, well, we just changed it, from 300 to 275 square P. So before it would have been
04:05:05.08 Mayor Kelly Well, you have him.
04:05:08.67 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
04:05:08.79 Unknown Thank you.
04:05:11.42 Unknown Yeah.
04:05:11.44 Unknown I'm sorry.
04:05:14.96 Unknown If you kept it at 300 for the minute, it would have been
04:05:17.33 Unknown Yeah.
04:05:18.74 Unknown because it's the minimum size, you'd have to notice all of them. But now you have something that's between 275 and 300 that would be just put it at the site, right?
04:05:20.62 Lily and have a good day.
04:05:28.31 Lily There would be no difference between a 275 square foot unit and a 300 square foot unit.
04:05:35.20 Unknown in the way this is written.
04:05:36.28 Lily All right.
04:05:36.40 Mayor Kelly All right.
04:05:36.55 Unknown Thank you.
04:05:36.67 Mayor Kelly All right.

It's all new units, period.
04:05:38.99 Lily Yeah, all new units would be noticed.

So that's different than someone if they wanted to add on 300 square feet to their house, which would just require a zoning permit, would not require noticing to the neighborhood.
04:05:48.95 Unknown Thank you.
04:05:48.97 Mayor Kelly Mm-hmm.
04:05:52.54 Mayor Kelly All right.

Why wouldn't we have that for ADUs?
04:05:57.42 Councilmember Pfeiffer My comment on that?
04:05:59.51 Mayor Kelly I'm asking staff. Why wouldn't we have that for ADU?
04:06:06.35 Mayor Kelly That's more restrictive than our current normalcy.
04:06:11.60 Councilmember Pfeiffer because an ADU has a car.
04:06:14.04 Mayor Kelly Yeah.

I understand that part, but I mean, once we get over this, you compare the two.
04:06:21.25 Jeremy Grace Go back to Councilmember Pfeiffer's question. All the proposal that's on the table now. I hear. It's all over.
04:06:26.43 Mayor Kelly I hear.
04:06:29.05 Jeremy Grace all new ADUs will be noticed.
04:06:31.90 Mayor Kelly If that's passed, that makes ADU units more restrictive than just my plain old 300 feet I want to add to my house. I don't like that. I think that's what the state would object to.
04:06:45.04 Jeremy Grace That's what the state would object to. From a staff perspective, the understanding of the council intention there is that the reason a more stringent notice requirement is applied to the ADUs is because it's a little different use than me adding on 250 square feet addition to my house.
04:06:49.58 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Yeah.
04:07:01.90 Mayor Kelly Did you look at other folks' jurisdictions, ADU?
04:07:05.97 Jeremy Grace Most of them do not have this additional notice requirement that we are considering under Item 7 right now.
04:07:09.61 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Yeah, that's what I think. And I think that that's going to be a red light at the state. I think it's going to be a neon light at the state. So will you?
04:07:19.25 Unknown Will one of the two of you, or three of you, repeat when you trigger noticing under the current?

Not just to put the thing on the building or on the street pole. The street pole. Yeah, when do you trigger the other, like an actual mailed notice?
04:07:32.76 Unknown I stole.
04:07:33.44 Jeremy Grace to.
04:07:33.62 Unknown Thank you.
04:07:33.83 Jeremy Grace Yeah.

That is when administrative design review is triggered. And there are 13 triggers for that.
04:07:37.41 Unknown you
04:07:47.51 Lily So there's two different levels. There's administrative design review and planning commission design review. Right. The 300 square feet we were just referring to, that criteria is just for single-family homes. Right. So there's an additional other criteria for multifamily homes, which is actually, it's a smaller number. Right now. And then administrative design review, there's even a smaller threshold as well. And administrative design review would require the noticing too. So the 300 square feet we were just talking about for single family homes for an addition. But there's some more restrictive criteria.
04:07:49.77 Jeremy Grace Right.
04:07:50.18 Robert Forsyth Thank you.

Thank you.
04:07:51.26 Jeremy Grace Right.
04:07:51.67 Unknown Thank you.

Thank you.
04:07:52.05 Patricia DeLuca 300 square feet.
04:07:57.77 Unknown Right.
04:07:58.03 Unknown Thank you.
04:08:01.25 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
04:08:01.27 Unknown Thank you.
04:08:01.28 Patricia DeLuca Oh my God.
04:08:05.30 Unknown Right.
04:08:18.48 Unknown Right.

So right now we trigger, and it's just been too long since I've looked at this. Or luckily it's been long since I looked at those. So for administrative design review for multifamily, um, That's at like 250 or something like that. I can't remember what it is. But it triggers a written notice going on.
04:08:43.86 Lily Anything actually under 10% of the existing structure for multifamily triggers notice.
04:08:47.60 Unknown it.

So is Ministry of Review, in a lot of scenarios, triggers a written notice currently?
04:08:49.83 Lily Thank you.
04:08:57.39 Lily The design review permit. So it's an administrative design review permit, which is a discretionary permit. It's one that we can use subjectivity in approving. It doesn't have that checklist type of product.
04:09:00.55 Unknown Oh, right.
04:09:01.59 Unknown Thank you.
04:09:01.66 Mayor Kelly .
04:09:02.64 Unknown Mm.
04:09:03.03 Mayor Kelly It's like,
04:09:07.42 Mayor Kelly It doesn't matter.

Well, okay, if you feel like we got a second shot at this in case the state says yuck, okay?
04:09:17.39 Jeremy Grace I guess I'm not worried about the state. I don't think that what Mary is 100% accurate that we need to send, whether we are required to send our organs up there, and I'm sure they have a stack. They have a computer, a disk full of them. I think it was to be as a resource for other communities to look at if they wanted to. I think I'm not worried at this point about the noticing requirement becoming a red flag at the state level.
04:09:18.64 Mayor Kelly Do not worry.
04:09:19.13 Patricia DeLuca to get to the next.
04:09:19.53 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
04:09:19.57 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
04:09:19.60 Mayor Kelly So, that's...
04:09:19.79 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
04:09:26.40 Mayor Kelly All right.
04:09:40.61 Unknown Okay.
04:09:40.96 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
04:09:46.04 Mayor Kelly Okay, so if we then accept that, do we just accept what you say, policy direction? Is that what we're doing?
04:09:51.86 Jeremy Grace Yes, what you would like to do if you want to provide notice is to direct staff to include the language that is identified in Issue 7 into the ordinance.
04:10:01.11 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Thank you.
04:10:01.67 Unknown Okay.
04:10:01.97 Mayor Kelly All right.

Okay, are we ready to vote on this?
04:10:06.41 Councilmember Pfeiffer No, I have a comment, Mr. Mayor. So the difference between someone adding 300 square feet to their home versus adding a 300 square foot ADU is parking. I mean, if someone's moving in to an ADU unit, they may have a car. And that's why, in my mind, it raises the level of the importance of just of noticing and neighborhood awareness. So that was the comment I wanted to make.

Thank you.
04:10:32.96 Unknown Yeah, but his point just before that was that if, you know, it's getting fuzzy right now, but is that...

Yeah, you were just sort of a, I think you had reached a consensus that we're just going to go with the criteria that are in the current, you know, Zoning ordinance.
04:10:48.30 Mayor Kelly I'd prefer that, frankly.
04:10:49.80 Unknown Thank you.
04:10:49.83 Mayor Kelly So,
04:10:49.97 Unknown But I mean, which is rather, which is sending out, in this scenario, would send out a fair number of notices.
04:10:56.19 Mayor Kelly I mean, let's be honest with you. Sending out notices on small projects, a little tiny project where you're putting 300 square feet or 350 or something. No, I'm just saying if you live
04:11:04.26 Unknown I'm just saying if you lived with it, whatever the thresholds are now, and I wish I could find them here.
04:11:08.50 Mayor Kelly And I, you know.

Well, it's 300 square feet.

Thank you.

So, but I mean, you know.
04:11:20.81 Councilmember Pfeiffer Mr. Mayor, do you have a comment? Yes, go ahead. My personal view is that if we are doing something that is bringing in a new unit into a neighborhood, that we should take the conservative route and do mandated noticing within that 300-foot radius, irrespective of the size of the new EDU.
04:11:22.69 Mayor Kelly Yeah, it's good.
04:11:23.23 Unknown Thank you.
04:11:42.77 Mayor Kelly you're seeing.

I hear you and I think that what I'm concerned about is that we don't throw any roadblocks in the middle of the road to stop people from building affordable housing units.
04:11:55.93 Patricia DeLuca Well, how's it going?
04:11:58.50 Mayor Kelly 200 neighbors showing up at a council main don't want an ADU and their chamberhood is a roadblock.

That's why the state wants ministerial approval and that's why I've championed the same Okay, but let's get to the, I think we've exhausted our points of view here. Let's move on to, can we vote on this yet?
04:12:13.58 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
04:12:13.60 Unknown Thank you.
04:12:13.95 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
04:12:18.75 Unknown What are you proposing for that? So can I make a move? I move?
04:12:20.09 Mayor Kelly I'd say can I make a move? I move? I'd like to... I'd like to...
04:12:23.67 Councilmember Pfeiffer I like to make a movement.
04:12:25.75 Mayor Kelly If you're going to say the same thing all over again, I got it.
04:12:28.43 Councilmember Pfeiffer Bye.

Thank you.
04:12:29.16 Mayor Kelly I'll make a motion.
04:12:30.02 Councilmember Pfeiffer Bye.

Okay.

So I'd like to move that we include mandated noticing for all new ADUs, and we provide that noticing within a 300-foot radius.
04:12:45.39 Mayor Kelly Well, I just want to use the language, so I want to see the language that you're proposing.

Thank you.
04:12:49.07 Jeremy Grace What we'd be looking at is the language on page 7. Is that page 7 of the ordinance itself? Oh, the staff report.
04:12:53.49 Mayor Kelly Is that page seven of the order?
04:12:55.03 Unknown to convince yourself.
04:12:55.89 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
04:12:55.92 Unknown THE STATUS.

Mm-hmm.
04:13:04.07 Jeremy Grace at the bottom of page seven.
04:13:10.91 Councilmember Pfeiffer So, um,
04:13:12.54 Mayor Kelly Can we just look at this for a minute before anybody comments?
04:13:15.17 Councilmember Pfeiffer No, I had a question for Jeremy.
04:13:16.37 Mayor Kelly Notice shall be required for an attached accessory dwelling unit and for a detached accessory dwelling unit pursuant to section 108202.0b. Is that the language?
04:13:25.54 Jeremy Grace Correct, and that's the section that is referenced there says that the notice shall be sent to all property owners and residences within 300 feet of the project site.
04:13:35.22 Unknown Thank you.
04:13:37.99 Jeremy Grace Thank you.
04:13:38.01 Councilmember Pfeiffer And Mr. Mayor, I have a question for Jeremy. So Jeremy, does this at the bottom of page 7, does that align with what I just said? In other words, will this automatically send a notice to all new ADUs within a 300 foot radius?
04:13:38.02 Jeremy Grace And Mr. Mayor, I have a question for Jeremy.

Thank you.

Thank you.
04:13:54.59 Jeremy Grace So any new ADU that comes in will trigger and require staff to send a notice to all property owners within 300 feet. The only exception would be if it's an internal conversion, and that would not require this. This only requires notice for attached, attached, attached, and attached.
04:14:07.37 Patricia DeLuca Oh.
04:14:15.17 Patricia DeLuca Thank you.
04:14:15.20 Unknown This is what it requires.
04:14:20.75 Jeremy Grace in detail.

Thank you.
04:14:22.42 Unknown All right.
04:14:22.69 Councilmember Pfeiffer Okay. Thank you, Jeremy. I personally think it should be sent out. I think the issue is people need to know when this is happening. That's exactly what this says. No, but he just said that it's not noticed. Noticing is not triggered when it's an internal conversion.
04:14:31.60 Mayor Kelly That's exactly what this says.
04:14:36.55 Mayor Kelly Noticing is not.

Because there's no change in the property. There's nothing being added.
04:14:42.25 Councilmember Pfeiffer Oh, you're adding a potential new car.
04:14:44.39 Mayor Kelly I'm sorry. I'm not supporting that. So let's, I'd like to make a motion. I'm going to take my mayoral prerogative and make a motion. I'd like to make a motion that we adopt, let me get the, that we introduce and, wait a minute, where's the?
04:14:50.75 Patricia DeLuca May we?
04:14:51.01 Councilmember Pfeiffer world prerogative.
04:15:03.92 Mayor Kelly attachment. Hang on.

That we adopt an ordinance to the Council of the City of Sausalito amending Title X of the Sausalito Municipal Code to delete Chapter 21, second units, and add a new Section 10.44.080 regarding regulations for new accessory dwelling units and amnesty for existing unpermitted accessory dwelling units, and modify tables 10.22-2 to add reference to accessory dwelling units and modify chapters 10.22-2 to add reference to accessory dwelling units and modify chapters 10.88 to remove the definition of secondary dwelling and add definitions related to accessory dwelling unit provisions. Do I have a second?
04:15:44.92 Unknown that you have to incorporate.
04:15:46.38 Mayor Kelly Oh, and incorporate the changes that are contained on the Issue Summit that we discussed tonight. So in the case of number one, it's to accept the language as written in the steps.
04:16:00.04 Lily And I heard also remove the moderate.
04:16:02.24 Mayor Kelly Yes, and remove moderate from that. And then on number four, it's to, we agreed on that one, we agreed with that the language that's existing is fine.
04:16:14.18 Lily Okay.

Thank you.

Could not do number four.

Thank you.
04:16:15.99 Mayor Kelly Go.
04:16:16.48 Lily Thank you.
04:16:17.16 Mayor Kelly to.
04:16:17.48 Lily No change.
04:16:18.15 Unknown Thank you.
04:16:18.17 Lily Thank you.
04:16:18.74 Mayor Kelly No changes, correct.

Right. So what is in here, what is in your resolution, is what we accept.

Okay.

And on number seven, that we will accept the noticing requirements you're suggesting on page seven of the staff report.

Okay.
04:16:33.74 Lily And then I also heard changing the minimum size to 275 square feet. Correct. And then one other item, John suggested adding some language in
04:16:33.95 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

Thank you.

Awesome.
04:16:37.66 Mayor Kelly Correct.
04:16:44.88 Lily the number one for the parking exception
04:16:48.10 Adam Politzer All right.

Right.
04:16:50.48 Lily So this would put language saying, Thank you.

and the owner chooses not to accommodate it, referring to the parking space, that language would be both in the where it's feasible to provide parking and where it's not feasible to provide parking.
04:17:06.55 Mayor Kelly Okay, fine.
04:17:08.12 Unknown you
04:17:08.17 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
04:17:08.37 Unknown Thank you.
04:17:08.44 Mayor Kelly Thank you.

All right, we have a second?
04:17:11.26 Unknown in that
04:17:12.49 Mayor Kelly All right, Debbie, would you call a roll?
04:17:14.08 Unknown Can I just note for the record, though, I will support it, but I don't agree with number four, but I will support the combined legislation.
04:17:21.99 Councilmember Pfeiffer And Mr. Mayor, I'd like to note for the record that I agree with these points, but I don't agree with the noticing requirement as we are accepting it.

Okay. Call the roll.
04:17:35.56 Debbie Council member Pfeiffer?
04:17:36.86 Councilmember Pfeiffer Uh, no.
04:17:39.45 Debbie Council member White, wider.
04:17:41.06 Unknown Yes.
04:17:42.88 Debbie Vice Mayor Leon.
04:17:44.45 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
04:17:44.47 Mayor Kelly Yes.
04:17:44.92 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
04:17:46.04 Debbie Mayor Kelly.
04:17:46.71 Mayor Kelly Yes. All right. Thank you for your patience, everyone out there listening to this. So let's go to the City Manager Report.
04:17:55.96 Dan Pusini when we fall.
04:17:56.50 Mayor Kelly Give us a long-winded one.
04:17:56.82 Adam Politzer It's not a long-winded way.
04:17:57.65 Dan Pusini Go ahead. I'm going to give you
04:17:57.70 Adam Politzer Go ahead. I'm going to give you guys a break, and we will pick up the city manager's report on November 27th. Oh, my goodness.
04:18:00.95 Mayor Kelly Yeah.
04:18:00.97 Dan Pusini Bye.
04:18:01.00 Mayor Kelly THE END OF THE END OF THE All right.
04:18:05.95 Mayor Kelly Oh, my goodness. All right. Then moving quickly through the balance of the evening, I think we have nothing left. Does anybody have anything else to talk about tonight?
04:18:07.55 Unknown That's it for us.
04:18:09.17 Adam Politzer All right.
04:18:10.01 Unknown Thank you.
04:18:17.15 Unknown Thank you.
04:18:17.17 Unknown Thank you.

I moved to the city.
04:18:20.06 Mayor Kelly Nope.
04:18:21.31 Unknown Thank you.
04:18:21.54 Councilmember Pfeiffer Ms. Mayor, I have a future agenda item.
04:18:21.64 Unknown Thank you.
04:18:21.69 Mayor Kelly .
04:18:21.76 Unknown .
04:18:24.38 Mayor Kelly Okay?
04:18:24.65 Councilmember Pfeiffer Thank you.
04:18:24.66 Mayor Kelly Thank you.
04:18:24.82 Councilmember Pfeiffer The Bicycle Pedestrian Committee, I'd like to put that on a future agenda item to discuss, resurrect and get moving on the...

interviews for that.
04:18:38.65 Mayor Kelly OK. I'm probably, as mayor, going to defer that to the new mayor. But I'll certainly make it a part of the new mayor's kit.
04:18:50.38 Unknown Thank you.
04:18:51.02 Mayor Kelly There you go.
04:18:52.51 Unknown Thank you.
04:18:54.18 Mayor Kelly I'm writing a book for the new mayor. Okay. Motion to adjourn.
04:18:59.05 Unknown All of it.
04:18:59.97 Unknown Thank you.

I'll second motion to adjourn.
04:19:04.20 Mayor Kelly Okay, great.
04:19:05.65 Unknown Thank you.
04:19:06.56 Unknown Thank you.
04:19:07.51 Unknown I'm going to go.
04:19:07.85 Unknown flavor.
04:19:08.52 Mayor Kelly I'll be right back.
04:19:08.56 Unknown All the time.

All right.

Hi.

homeless.