| Time | Speaker | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00.03 | Unknown | Councilmember Fiver? |
| 00:00:02.19 | Sandra Bushmaker | Here. |
| 00:00:02.44 | Unknown | Councilmember Theodorus. |
| 00:00:03.68 | Ray Withy | President. |
| 00:00:04.60 | Unknown | Council Member Withy? |
| 00:00:05.70 | Ray Withy | here. Thank you. |
| 00:00:06.29 | Unknown | Mayor Weiner. |
| 00:00:07.39 | Ray Withy | present. Vuce, you want to leave us in the pledge, please? Yes. Well, I waited until you sat down. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. |
| 00:00:18.43 | Thomas Theodores | They delish it. through the |
| 00:00:19.94 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 00:00:23.02 | Ray Withy | and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Thank you, Bruce. Thank you. |
| 00:00:23.29 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 00:00:23.30 | Thomas Theodores | Jesus, if you need to. |
| 00:00:23.81 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 00:00:23.94 | Bruce South | I love it. |
| 00:00:26.54 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 00:00:36.19 | Ray Withy | Okay, we went into closed session and we discussed two items with legal counsel. I'm sorry, one was legal counsel on Zacks v. Sausalito. other. The other was MLK properties. Is there any public comment on that closed session items? Okay, then I'd like to now move to the agenda. |
| 00:01:14.47 | Ray Withy | I had no problem. I move to approve as submitted. |
| 00:01:18.65 | Sandra Bushmaker | Second. |
| 00:01:19.34 | Ray Withy | Okay. |
| 00:01:20.03 | Ray Withy | All of those in favor? Aye. Aye. |
| 00:01:21.10 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:01:21.17 | Sandra Bushmaker | Bye. |
| 00:01:21.66 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:01:24.91 | Ray Withy | There are no special presentations at this time here. |
| 00:01:32.98 | Ray Withy | At this time here, we open this for public communications. This is the time for the City Council to hear from citizens regarding matters that are not on the agenda, except for a very limited situation. State law precludes the Council from taking action on these engaging in discussions concerning items of business that are not on the agenda. At this time here, anybody would like to speak on that? Okay. All right, then we'll move on to the next item, which is the action minutes of previous meetings, the minutes of the regular council meeting of February 26, 2013. |
| 00:02:17.53 | Sandra Bushmaker | So move. |
| 00:02:19.16 | Ray Withy | Second. Okay. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Now we come to the consent calendar. |
| 00:02:21.87 | Sandra Bushmaker | I... |
| 00:02:22.62 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 00:02:28.04 | Ray Withy | Mary? |
| 00:02:29.36 | Mary Wagner | Yes, Mr. Mayor, thank you. Staff is requesting that item 4D on your consent calendar be pulled and continued to March 19th, your next meeting. |
| 00:02:39.74 | Ray Withy | Okay. All right, so then I have a... All right, so we'll take D off the item, and can I have an approval of the consent calendar with the removal of D? I move that we approve the... Okay, I'm sorry. Any public comment on that? Okay. Sorry. |
| 00:03:03.53 | Thomas Theodores | I move that we approve the consent calendar with the exception of 4D. Thank you. |
| 00:03:09.45 | Ray Withy | second. |
| 00:03:10.85 | Sandra Bushmaker | I just want to comment that, of course, I still am opposed to the solution for Vina del Mar, but under the circumstances, I will second because that's already been voted on. |
| 00:03:22.65 | Ray Withy | Okay, all in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Now, for the next question, |
| 00:03:24.46 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 00:03:24.47 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 00:03:24.50 | Mary Wagner | I am. |
| 00:03:31.63 | Ray Withy | We will now move on to the business items, the first business item that we have, the status report on the Marinship specific plan, Its history, its uses, and its options. Lili Xinxing, you're on. |
| 00:03:46.46 | Lily | Thank you, Mr. Mayor, council members. |
| 00:03:46.54 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:03:50.51 | Lily | Good evening. |
| 00:03:58.07 | Lily | Tonight, we'll be reviewing the Marineship-specific plan And to start off, we'll talk about what a specific plan is, Then we'll go into the background, applicability, organization, allowed uses, development programs, and development standards with the MarinShip-specific plan, in addition to some issues that are faced by staff, the decision makers, and property owners. Then we'll go into some recent council actions and identify some options for future steps. And then finally staff will have a recommendation. |
| 00:04:39.62 | Lily | So a specific plan is a tool for the implementation of the general plan, and it establishes a link between implementing programs or policies of the general plan and the development proposals for a defined area. A general plan typically contains broad-term policies and objectives that address the long-term development objectives. of the entire community. And because the general plan is not sufficiently specific to address the needs or opportunities of a particular area, that's when a specific plan could be created. A specific plan may be as general as broad policy concepts or detailed as specifying the lighting and landscaping and street designs and building types for a particular area. As illustrated in this pyramid here, the specific plan sits in between the general plan and implementing regulations such as the zoning ordinance. |
| 00:05:42.86 | Lily | a little bit of background on the Marineship Specific Plan, or MSP. It was adopted in 1988 and amended in 1989. In that same year, the zoning ordinance was amended to incorporate the policies and standards of the MSP, and the 1995 general plan incorporated the provisions of the MSP. The general intent of the MSP was to retain yet focus specific 1970 general plan objectives. These two on the screen here, which were to promote the waterfront area and promote diversified water-dependent uses, and to promote the development of other lands in the marineship with industrial uses and uses compatible in an industrial area. Under that general intent, there are 21 specific goals. and they're on the screen here, just to show you that they're in the document. Some of the goals revolve around the preserving and enhancing of the maritime and industrial history and character of the area. Other goals include preserving the MarinShip as an area primarily oriented to the use and service of Suslita residents as opposed to tourists and visitors. And furthermore, some of the goals address public access and use of the water and maintaining an urban rather than suburban character in that MarinShip area. |
| 00:07:08.27 | Lily | This is the Marineship-specific plan area. It applies to the area between Bridgeway and Richardson Bay and Napa and the northern city limits. The majority of the marine ship land area was created by the federal government during World War II. by excavating what was then referred to as Pine Point and filling the bay, and in some areas with over 100 feet of fill. |
| 00:07:41.78 | Lily | I'm going to start with this slide, actually, first. The plan is divided into three MSP planning zones, and these aren't to be confused with zoning districts. These planning zones correspond to different traffic distribution zones, so that's at the Within each of those planning zones, there's a further division of the land into planning areas, which were based on the current use, in addition to character identity, land form, and ownership. And that's the second level here. And then further within each planning area, there's planning parcels. And the parcels consist of existing individual assessor parcels under a single ownership. When the ownership wasn't contiguous, then a separate planning parcel was created. So going back to this slide here, there are nine different zoning ordinance, zoning districts in the MSP area. That's waterfront, industrial, public institutional, open space, public parks, shopping center, open area, and houseboat. And I've overlaid those three planning, MSP planning zones over the zoning map for you. |
| 00:09:03.62 | Lily | Thank you. Go through this again. So this figure shows an example of MSP Planning Zone 2. Within this zone, there's Planning Area 6, which is at the top in green. And then in that area, it's further divided into three planning parcels, A, B, and C. We'll come back to that in a minute. I wanted to show you the use table. with uses in the MSP are allowed on a parcel-specific basis. By corresponding the use type to the specific planning parcel in this use table, you can see which uses are allowed and which are not. So for any specific use, if the square has a full circle, it means it's allowed. If that has a circle that's either half or quarter, it means it's allowed with a use permit. And if there is nothing in the square, then it means it's not allowed. So on a parcel specific basis, uses generally allowed by the MSP include general industrial, marine industrial, fine and applied arts, business commercial service, and marine commercial service. In some specific cases, office, residential, and retail uses are allowed if they existed at the time that MSP was adopted. And there are other uses that are in this table that are allowed as well, such as restaurants and live aborts, which are limited to specific parcels under specific conditions. So using that example of Zone 2, Planning Area 6, Planning Parcels A, B, and C, you would go to the Use Table, Find Parcel 6, A, B, and C, and then you can see what's allowed under each of those parcels. Under Applied Arts, I hope you can see I've circled, you can see the difference. Parcel A, which is the first one in that circle, applied arts are allowed with a use permit. But in B, they're not allowed. |
| 00:11:10.71 | Lily | The allowed uses are further refined by the development programs in the MSP, and those development programs are organized first by zoning district. So in this case, I've given an example of an industrial zoning district. Next there is a narrative which describes the general intent of that particular zoning district. So for example, the general intent of the industrial zoning district is to to promote non-polluting, low-intensity industrial uses in addition to uses like warehousing, and maritime arts, craft workshops, and so on. Next there's a discussion of the typical condition of parcels in that zoning district. and that allows, it also describes the allowed uses in that district in detail. So for example, an industrial zoning district arts are in allowed use. And so the narrative with regards to arts specifies that retail art galleries are not allowed. And it also specifies that a certain signage is not allowed, and there's limits on sales events as well. So it further defines that arts use. Lastly, in this section, there's a section on site-specific exceptions, which gives specific planning parcel considerations to the typical condition, so some exceptions to those above rules. |
| 00:12:38.50 | Lily | The MSP also addresses a variety of detailed development standards, including circulation, access, sidewalk standards, public access, bike paths, lighting, landscaping, parking standards, building heights, and drainage, among others. Thank you. The document includes parcel specific references as applicable for each of these standards. |
| 00:13:05.44 | Lily | Property owners of MarinShip parcels and decision makers and staff have faced challenges over the years in using and administering the MSP. For example, it's been contended by property owners that it's difficult for managers to rent tenant space for prospective tenants due to uncertainty in knowing if the space has been grandfathered or not, for example, for an office use. Decision makers also face challenges with the use of this document, as seen in the recent decision on the Harmonia Cultural School that the council just heard. And additionally, staff routinely experiences difficulty in administering the document due to the organization of the document, among other things. |
| 00:13:53.71 | Lily | Here's a list of recent council actions with regard to the marineship area. The specific plan review appeared above the line on the priority calendar for the last four fiscal years. The Waterfront Marineship Committee presented a report on ways to maximize the economic vitality while balancing the quality of life and character of the marineship area to the council in 2010. Staff presented an inventory of land uses and businesses in the Marinship area in 2011. The Business Advisory Committee members prepared a short-term business needs study in 2011 In 2012, the Marin Economic Forum prepared a Sausalito community and economic development study. And finally, the council recently authorized a contract for additional funding for the Marin Economic Forum. for him in November. |
| 00:14:51.96 | Lily | So tonight, staff has proposed a variety of options for future steps that the council may consider. including others that may be identified tonight, and the options we listed are to hold a joint meeting between the Planning Commission and the City Council, form a task force to investigate some of these issues, refer the issue to the Business Advisory Committee, reconvene the Waterfront and Marinship Committee, or delegate this to staff. And, you know, a combination of those options may be appropriate or other options may be appropriate. So with that, we recommend that you accept our staff report and provide direction tonight as appropriate. And we're available for any questions. |
| 00:15:38.74 | Ray Withy | Okay, thank you, Linda. Any questions at this time? |
| 00:15:45.57 | Ray Withy | Thank you, Lillik. It's a complex document. So, um... My first question relates to the uses that are defined in the Marineship-specific plan. and in particular, I want to get an understanding of That seems to be on my reading in exhibit. B or appendix B and it's summarized on a parcel by parcel basis in the table you put up, right? The exhibit Appendix B seems very vague. It makes comments like, these are examples of uses. In fact, I think it says this is not to be interpreted as the only uses. You know, it's the sort of document that probably makes community development directors cringe because it's not very specific. So that's exhibit B, sort of gives a whole bunch of uses. But then we've got the zoning ordinance. in which we've got a whole bunch of uses. So what I want to try and get to in a long-winded way is to try and understand The uses that are listed in Appendix B. and how that relates to the uses that are listed in what is it, 10.20 of the zoning ordinance? And in particular, because the zoning ordinance came after the marine ship-specific plan, to what extent And they were specifically charged to actually adopt this marine, the concepts in the Marineship Pacific Plan into the zoning ordinance. Is not the zoning ordinance in effect the law of this city. as to the uses that are allowed in the marineship, because to have validly adopted the zoning ordinance which incorporated the marineship provisions, an interpretation of the marine ship-specific plan was made. and we don't have the right to actually ignore the zoning ordinance and treat the marineship-specific plan. as if it were a zoning ordinance. I think that may be a question for Mary as much as you. I could take a stab at it too. |
| 00:18:18.04 | Lily | I could take a stab at it too. So I think staff has experienced conflict between the emergency specific plan use table and the zoning ordinance use table. And the zoning ordinance use table is pretty general. It lists the use that's allowed and then basically refers to the MSP, CMSP for further So there. The MSP is very specific, as we've discussed, on a parcel by parcel basis, but the zoning ordinance does not go into a parcel by parcel basis. There's a section of the zoning ordinance that states that if there's a conflict between the specific plan and the zoning ordinance, the specific plan rules. |
| 00:19:00.33 | Ray Withy | I understand that. But that provision can't be used as a catch-all to completely validate the disolving ordinance. |
| 00:19:08.54 | Lily | I think that we've identified that there's a conflict and that's something that council could give us direction on how to deal with that conflict. |
| 00:19:17.44 | Ray Withy | I mean, I would like us to get an understanding legally as to which document we're supposed to look at. |
| 00:19:25.03 | Mary Wagner | Well, legally, you're supposed to look at both, and I know that that's not... an answer that provides the clarity that you're looking for. I think that what Lily has stated is that we're trying to make the two documents work together, and it's not always, um, harmonious for lack of a better word, sorry. And it's one of the issues that we think needs to be addressed and resolved with respect to the Marinship-specific plan. |
| 00:19:45.08 | Bruce South | Better work, sorry. |
| 00:19:55.76 | Mary Wagner | and making it a better document both for the community and for staff working with it so that those types of issues are addressed and clarified. |
| 00:20:07.88 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mr. Mayor? |
| 00:20:08.72 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 00:20:09.70 | Sandra Bushmaker | So, Lily, it's my understanding, and I think you just said this, that the Marinship Specific Plan takes The purpose, is it true that the purpose of a specific plan is to clarify specific uses within a specific area as an overlay of the zoning? |
| 00:20:27.97 | Lily | as an The purpose of the specific plan is to implement policies in the general plan, and so it's a tool that can be used to do that. The specific plan and the zoning ordinance are to work in concert with each other. |
| 00:20:42.67 | Sandra Bushmaker | And would you agree that the goal of the Marinship Specific Plan is to, and I think you had it on your prior slide, to preserve maritime services and to preserve or promote maritime services and light industrial uses? |
| 00:21:01.23 | Lily | These are the two overall general intent, which definitely touch on industrial uses and waterfront uses as well. Then there's these other 21 specific goals that talk about a variety of other uses and have attached those, because you can't read them on the screen here, those goals to the staff report as attachment one. |
| 00:21:11.48 | Bruce South | And they're Thank you. |
| 00:21:14.84 | Heidi Scoble | Thank you. |
| 00:21:19.73 | Heidi Scoble | Thank you. |
| 00:21:19.75 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mm-hmm. |
| 00:21:26.06 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yeah. |
| 00:21:26.08 | Lily | There's a variety of other |
| 00:21:29.03 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 00:21:29.05 | Lily | goals. |
| 00:21:29.37 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 00:21:29.43 | Lily | Thank you. |
| 00:21:30.07 | Sandra Bushmaker | And would you agree that the purpose of these 21 goals was kind of twofold? One was to promote maritime services and light industrial uses so as to preserve that unique economic diversity in Sausalito so that we weren't all one big tourist place. and the other purpose of these 21 goals was to, I know what they did was they kind of grandfathered in the current uses of some of the cottage industries, you know, the artists, you know, that were already there and some of the auto, you know, the repair shops that were still there. |
| 00:22:14.39 | Lily | I think that's a big intent of the Marin shift specific plan. And there's other, it touches on other issues like promoting public access and, you know, waterfront activities as well. And then the plan also does allow for arts uses and a variety of industrial uses that and Don't just by calling them industrial seem like they would be industrial uses and I can give you some examples as well. Those types of uses are allowed principally without a use permit. |
| 00:22:40.43 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mm-hmm. |
| 00:22:44.85 | Sandra Bushmaker | Because wasn't, so, wasn't the overriding intent of the Marinship specific plan then to prevent the kind of tourist oriented kind of economy that we had in downtown Sausalito. |
| 00:23:04.40 | Lily | That's one of the... |
| 00:23:04.51 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. with the t-shirt. creep. |
| 00:23:05.72 | Lily | Go ahead. Yeah, that's one of these 21 specific goals. |
| 00:23:09.69 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 00:23:13.42 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Thank you. The Marineship specific plan is use focused and I have a question is, do we, does the city and community development or any other aspect of the city monitor the uses and secondly, do we have any sense of how compliant the actual and current uses are with the plan. Thank you. |
| 00:23:34.64 | Lily | We do. We require an occupational use permit for any business in the city to come in, and that's when a planner verifies that the use that someone's proposing in a specific tenant space is allowed per the zoning and in this area, the Marinship-specific plan. The city did do an inventory in 2011 of existing businesses in the Marinship-specific plan area, And I think if you take a look at that table, we did find that there are businesses that have gone in without an occupational use permit, in some cases those uses would have been approved, and in some cases they would not have been. |
| 00:24:16.66 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mr. Mayor? So another question I had, and it's not up here, but it relates to the Marineship Specific Plan, is I know that at some point in the Marineship Specific Plan, it refers to allowing, and it's either, it's like between 2% or 5% of public docking space in each marina, in the marinas of the Marineship Specific Plan. And I was wondering, is there any kind of support to ensure that that happens? Because periodically we get questions about allowing for public docking. |
| 00:24:56.47 | Lily | I'd have to take a look into that for you. |
| 00:25:02.88 | Ray Withy | The Marineship specific plan, wasn't that? That was passed in 1986 in a minute. I'm sorry, thank you. 1986 and what was amended in 89, is that correct? |
| 00:25:17.35 | Lily | It was 1989 and amended in, sorry, 88 and then amended in 89. |
| 00:25:25.65 | Ray Withy | WASN'T 86? |
| 00:25:28.21 | Lily | The fair traffic initiative was before the emergency. And that I thought was 85. I think that's the date. |
| 00:25:28.57 | Ray Withy | Okay. And that I thought was 85. 85 the traffic initiative was. And then the marineship specific was. And which was 27 years ago. And I believe the intent was that they did not want, at that time, the other was, it was all automobiles, where 27 years later we have, over a million people coming into Sausalito with none, well, I shouldn't say none motorized, by bicycle, by bus, by shuttle, and by ferry. So, um, We actually have less traffic now than we did then, and even less traffic than we had 10 years ago as far as automobiles go. |
| 00:26:25.96 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:26:26.42 | Ray Withy | I have one last follow-up question. |
| 00:26:27.97 | Ray Withy | and finance. |
| 00:26:28.42 | Ray Withy | Sure. |
| 00:26:30.65 | Ray Withy | You said that following the adoption of the marine ship specific plan, the zoning ordinance was amended to conform. to the Marine Ship Specific Plan. So specifically, was the current Chapter 10.26 of the Zoning Ordinance adopted shortly after the Marinship Specific Plan was adopted? And have the provisions of 10.26 at all morphed or changed? We read a draft dated July 15, 2003. So was there any in that intervening 13 years, was there any modification to the zoning ordinance which was the adoption of the marine ship specific plan. |
| 00:27:24.53 | Lily | I think I hear what your question is, is when the zoning ordinance was amended in 1989, does it look like it does today, which was recently amended in 2003? I don't know the answer to that because I haven't looked into the amendment from 1989. We could look into that for you. |
| 00:27:32.40 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah. |
| 00:27:39.40 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 00:27:45.29 | Ray Withy | Any other questions up here? At this time here, any questions from the public on this item? |
| 00:27:58.79 | Bruce South | I'm Bruce Huff from Kimber Companies in 10 Liberty Shipway. |
| 00:28:07.51 | Bruce South | I have a statement to make, but I'd like to maybe address a couple of your questions first, I started with the Marineship-specific plan in the early 80s, went all the way through the Planning Commission hearings, through the public hearings, through lawsuits, And so I do know a couple of the answers to a couple of your questions, specifically yours, the The plan was adopted into zoning. in the early 90s. and then the 1995 general plan was adopted and the zoning code that you see as a result of the 1995 general plan in the adoption in the Title X there was some significant changes to what the MarinShip specific plan says and specifically deletions to what the Marineship Specific Plan allows. So I'm very happy you asked the question because it's always been my opinion that if the plan is in conflict with the zoning code and that the plan rules, we should be able to get uses that we're not able to get today because the zoning code prohibits them. That's one of the answers. the adoption in the 2003 adoption of the 1995 general plan, It took place quite a while after the general plan. Am I three minutes back? I was just explaining something. |
| 00:29:34.18 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 00:29:36.17 | Bruce South | um On April 5, 1988, the Marinship Specific Plan was passed. So one month from tonight, that plan is 25 years old. the Over the course of that 25 years, myself and many of my colleagues and many people that are stakeholders in the marineship have attended countless hours in task force and meetings, committees, and various functions in an effort to reconcile the plan with all the stakeholders. So when I saw this on the agenda, and I was quite surprised, by the way, because I understood, this is the first time in 25 years that I understand that this item has been on a city council agenda. And. not to have the stakeholders informed of this. or notified of this to me is, almost inconscionable. But I did find out about it. I have come, so I'd like to make a couple of statements The staff report, and I don't fault staff for this because much of staff was probably in grade school when this plan was adopted. and they probably don't really understand the, um, the impact that this plan has had on the marineship, which is the largest economic area in the city of Sausalito. But there are two major, major issues that we fought for over the last 25 years. One is infrastructure. And the marineship-specific plan The subsequent, and by the way, I was on the 1995 General Plan Steering Committee And the city council at that time specifically instructed the steering committee not to touch the marine ship. So it was not addressed. because the plan was good, it was not addressed because city council specifically put it out of bounds to the steering committee. So over the last 25 years, we've had issues. One is infrastructure, and anybody on the city council who has ever talked to me understands that that's a huge issue to me. It's a private infrastructure. is deteriorating. It's created a, it's going to create a situation in my mind where 25 years from today you will not have a viable marine ship, at least from pedestrian and vehicular circulation. The Marineship Pacific plan was not adopted to prevent tourists. It was adopted to prevent offices, and it's quite simple. And that was the entire fight. the So the infrastructure is an area where We developed an improvement plan 20 years ago that even today, endorsed by every traffic study that's ever been done in the Marin ship. WE'VE ONLY ASKED CITY COUNCIL TO BECOME INVOLVED in helping us implement something that we're willing to pay for and City Council because nobody wants to touch the specific plan just shies away from it. And so our infrastructure continues to deteriorate. It will continue to deteriorate. and I am would plead with you that if this is on your budget priorities, if this is something you're going forward with, that infrastructure become part of that conversation. That's number one. Number two, the uses or the limitation of uses defined in the specific plan have, in my opinion, promoted blight. and they have tried to not promote uses, they've tried to codify uses that may no longer exist today. What they've created is a blighted situation, and I was very happy to see City Council address that. during Harmonia's hearing because part of that situation is vacancies. Part of that situation is deteriorating buildings. Part of that situation is deteriorating properties. And There is, since the last investment, we made the last investment in the marineship. We've invested, my clients, have invested approximately $30 million in the marineship. The last investment we made was $15 million. That was in 1999. I have yet to see a single investor, a single business person stepped their plate that is willing to invest any significant amount of money in the marineship because of the uses, of the use restrictions. So I think it promotes blight, And I think you've created probably the single largest underground economic community in this county, if not in the state of California. Can I get another minute and a half? |
| 00:34:35.22 | Thomas Theodores | All right. |
| 00:34:35.74 | Bruce South | I'm asking. |
| 00:34:36.74 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah, that's all right. I spent the first minute and a half |
| 00:34:36.80 | Bruce South | Yeah, that's all I did. I spent the first minute and a half, can I explain something? And I'll be very quick on this, or as quick as I can. the It's my understanding, the state of California, that a general plan is recommended to be revisited every 10 years. and that a specific plan is recommended to be revisited every five years. This general plan is 18 years old, this specific plan is 25 years old. This city is is in serious You haven't, The city has not addressed the issues that they should address on a regular basis, and had they been addressed on a regular basis, we probably would not be discussing this tonight. the There are many, many people who have spent vast amount of hours you have a WAM report. that was done, Chris Gallagher chaired, I think, had Every member of that committee was handpicked by city council Every member of that committee was hand-picked because of the diversity in the marineship We had people like myself, we had people that were you know, waterfront businesses. We had people that were in the marine businesses. We had charter boat captains. That produced a report that had a concurrence of that group. with issues that should be addressed. And that report, to my knowledge, has been ignored to this day. |
| 00:36:02.87 | Mary Wagner | you |
| 00:36:03.47 | Bruce South | The recommendations the staff makes, I think, are made because And again, I'm not being critical of staff because I don't think they understand it. The recommendations made here I don't think we'll get anywhere near to addressing the issues. having a joint planning commission meeting is for what purpose? You know, forming a task force, you've had a bunch of them. We've had task forces. We had the WAM committee, which was the biggest task force. Referring it to the Business Advisory Committee, I served on the Business Advisory Committee for 10 years. I have a great deal of respect for them. but it's been discussed there for 15 years. the, the, um, Bringing it back to Wham, you've got a Wham report. This all avoids the issue. The issue is that This plan needs to be addressed. And the only way a city can address A specific or general plan is to form a steering committee that's appointed by council. that's tasked with reviewing, addressing, and making recommendations to the Planning Commission and City Council to revise the specific plan and or the general plan. I heartily recommend that you consider appointing a steering committee to doing exactly that. and putting it with people that are various stakeholders, like we did with WAM. So with that, I thank you. |
| 00:37:34.33 | Ray Withy | Thank you, Bruce. Any others would like to speak on this item from the public? |
| 00:37:49.23 | Adam Politzer | Good evening, Adam. I'm on 840 Ulima Street. I've been a member of this community now for 15 years and as a sailboat owner I've been around for 40 years. So I follow the life of the community, and I'm part of the Marineship area because I live above MLK Junior High School, or Middle School, and I walk, bicycle, and live as part of that community there. I welcome the staff report. I think the staff report put all the issues on the table. And what I'd like to emphasize is that I regard the Marineship area as a resource |
| 00:38:43.09 | Bruce South | God. |
| 00:38:47.92 | Adam Politzer | that could serve the community if you would have the courage to put it on the table, to address it. and if the community would motivate property owners to participate in improving the infrastructure. the City itself doesn't have enough funds. to pay for all the infrastructure improvements that are required. Private property owners don't have the income to. support the necessary contributions that they would have to make. The only way is to pursue a joint public-private program that will face the issue under the city's leadership and with the participation of the private property owners in addressing key issues as they come about in terms of priority and You have demonstrated, you recognize that Heath needed help. The city reached in its pockets and instead of repaving more roads, fixed some pumps and whatever. and in essence, reached out to the community and helped the community in a very critical area. More of such assistance is needed. and You don't have enough resources unless motivate private property owners. to participate in this program. So I believe that you should take a fresh look at the plan from the point of view of and implementation in terms of capital improvements programs, improvement districts, and through the districts, the area could be saved because as Bruce pointed out, In 25 years, you wouldn't have any economic base in that area that you have now. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:40:59.44 | Ray Withy | Thank you, Adam. Anybody else from the public? Chris? |
| 00:41:09.26 | Ray Withy | WHANG. |
| 00:41:09.60 | Chris Gallagher | My apologies for being late. |
| 00:41:10.50 | Ray Withy | for |
| 00:41:11.21 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 00:41:13.32 | Chris Gallagher | down at the Bay Model putting together a furlough plan, which is very fun, given the Congress. But, so my apologies for not hearing the report, but I want to congratulate the Council for bringing this forward. Having it on the agenda, I feel like another baby has been birthed since I've been saying that at every priority Council agenda meeting since 2010 when we finished the WAM report. And since 2007 when the WAM committee was appointed, I have been attending the Business Advisory Committee meetings as a public member, not as a member of the committee, but just a member of the public to keep this in the forefront, reminding the council of all the work that went into the wham report and not to appoint yet another committee to study it you have it it's still you know very relevant and current and to go into another committee separate from what bruce is talking about but i want to thank you, and I hope this is not the end of having this topic on the council agenda. And at the last BAC, they appointed me the mother of marinship. So I'm going to take that role seriously and keep just sort of pointing ahead and hoping that something can get done down there. So I just wanted to say congratulations for at least having this on the agenda and bringing it forward. And it's a start, and I appreciate that. Thank you. |
| 00:42:51.29 | Chris Gallagher | Thank you. |
| 00:42:51.34 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:42:51.65 | Chris Gallagher | Thank you. |
| 00:42:59.17 | Vicki Nichols | I wasn't expecting the outcome or recommendations, but I think I agree with Bruce that we have had enough studies about the marineship-specific planning. There's studies that go back in the waterfront area to 1960. I looked them up in the Historical Society one day. They're about that thick. So it's an important area that we have in our city. I believe in the intent and the objectives when it was created, but I think the most important thing you need to consider if you're considering a steering committee, is that you get a truly diverse group of people If the community does not buy into this, it's wasting everyone's time. When we started the WAM committee, I think Mother Moran can tell you that that There wasn't always eye contact for the first couple of meetings. There was some distrust, there was very diverse opinions It probably took us longer to come up with a mission statement. than most parts of it, but the mission statement was constructive in that when we got too far afield, we could reel ourselves back in. and try to stick to the intent of the plan. So there has to be a clear objective, There has to be a way to deliver something that's helpful, or I think you're going to just be maybe spending your time and people's time in a direction that won't be beneficial. But I do think it has to be done. I mean, it has been on the calendar for four times. I've said this to you all personally, probably, you know my thoughts on this. |
| 00:44:33.84 | Bruce South | I do. |
| 00:44:40.84 | Bruce South | Thank you. Bye. |
| 00:44:43.54 | Vicki Nichols | I think that we need to honor some of the people that were visionary with this plan I think their intentions were good to save the area, to save the maritime industry, and But I do think now that it's time to re-look at this. It does not mean giving up the protection of the maritime industry. It does not mean gutting the plan. But if you're truly gonna look at the plan, you can't quote part of it. It does talk about public access to the water. There's a clear road through this. So you can't just look at one part of the plan, you have to look at the whole thing. And I think that's what a steering committee should be charged with. Thanks. |
| 00:45:24.62 | Ray Withy | Thank you, Vicky. |
| 00:45:36.95 | John Cox | Good evening, city council members. My name's John Cox. I live at 62 Marin. And I've lived here in Sausalito for six years now, almost six years. And this subject has been top of mind amongst the city. for that entire period. And it's been always flushed back and forth And just to parrot a lot of the things that have been said before, as I look at this, and it seems like, the general intent As I hear, the general intent is pretty well briefed. where it seems to get the problems with the 21 specific goals which tend to be pretty convoluted from an outsider's perspective. And I think some of the experience that we had, or that you had last week, or last month, with the Harmonia is a prime example of that. that. Something like that should not go into such a drill and such an activity just to determine whether a business should be started, a business of that sort should be started. So I guess just briefly, from what I've heard, is it seems like that we need to step back and take a look at these goals and see if they truly reflect the current environment. It is 25 years and things do change. One of the things I've heard also alluded to was As city councils change, it seems like there's different direction given by the council to members about what we want to do with the marineship plan. So I think from sitting there listening to this, I think that a steering committee is a very viable option. to go back and say, do these things still hold? Do we follow this, or do we wait another 25 years to determine where we are then? Thank you. |
| 00:47:49.27 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Anybody else would like to speak on this item? Okay, let's bring it back up here for comment. Someone would like to have a comment on this or we go in a direction. Thank you. |
| 00:48:04.39 | Ray Withy | Mr. Mayor. |
| 00:48:05.05 | Ray Withy | Um, |
| 00:48:07.45 | Ray Withy | I THINK WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE WE SEPARATE, PULL APART SOME ISSUES HERE. THE FIRST ISSUE which sort of prompted a review of Marineship 101 was, The issue around the fact that this is very complicated and we need to sort of get to grips with it, decision makers are looking at this in different ways. I personally think that this is a very serious problem. I think we actually have a danger of decision makers actually actually not following the law. So. But that's something for Mary, working with outside counsel, I'm not a lawyer, so I could say that. But I'm really worried about it. As I said before, this is a risk management issue. Now there's a second. an issue. And so that, I think, must be addressed. The second issue is Does the marineship-specific plan actually serve our goals. and serve our goals in the community of creating a diversified, Economy. We've got... and it's a diversified economy that is made Sausalito strong. You know, you can't just rely on You just can't rely on property taxes. in the Marine ship, because of the infrastructure erosion is meaning that any financial projection that if it was going to be credible has got to say in the future any revenue from the Marin ship is going down, not up. That is what inaction is going to cause. because the infrastructure that you cannot ask businesses to invest in infrastructure if they don't know how to make money off of their investment. It just doesn't work. So we've got to find a way public-private partnerships, finding grant funding, finding revenue sources. This is a multi-year, very complex project. We need to prise apart economic considerations We need to figure out an economic viability for that just to achieve sustainability of the marineshills. Because if we don't, we might as well just let the whole thing go back to the bay and forget that as part of Sausalito. Just turn it into a museum. and let us not worry about it being an economic hub. It happens to employ 3,000 people a day. It happens to provide reasonably significant revenue. It seems to me ludicrous to just let it die. But that's what inaction is doing, is letting it die. |
| 00:50:58.59 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you, Mr. President. |
| 00:50:59.89 | Thomas Theodores | I think, thank you, Lily, for presentation and for everyone coming to speak today. I think it's clear, I don't think there's any question that we need to address the Marinship Specific Plan. It's been above the line. with the Council for several years now. We've talked about it in our campaigns and promised to do so. I think it's important and valuable that we're doing it at the beginning of a council. so that we can start the process and get it finished with a with the same council. I think I agree with the statements that we've done a lot of studies, the WAM report, we have a lot of the other studies that were cited. in Lilly's report, I think now we have to pick up the process and get it rolling. Now, what I would say is, and this is the very first, we were calling this Marinship 101, this is the very first a step in the process. It's going to be a long process, but we're starting to move, and we're just going to continue with the process. What I might recommend is and looked at the recommendations of staff At this stage, I think we need to really, I think it's, We're one stage away from appointing a steering committee at this stage. I think what we need to do is get a little I think probably staff and city council I don't think we can ask any more of the public to get involved. I know Chris will she kind of emphasized that to me, and I did not forget it about the WAM report and how People did the work, and I was really impressed and appreciated, and did all this work without it being considered by Council. I think it's very important when we appoint a steering committee that Council gives it a direction, and that it commits to honoring whatever the steering committee comes up with that we implement that along. It'll be with all the public hearings and everything that goes along with it. But I think we have a step before that, I think, between staff and possibly a couple of members of this council that we have to look at what is there WHAT STEPS MIGHT BE INVOLVED, who should be on the steering committee and what direction we should give them. We need to, as a council, say, This is what the steering committee should be. And here are the, this is what we want, we've tasked them to do, and we're going to live up to it. We're gonna accept what they do and we're gonna stand behind it. So that's what I would suggest. So in terms of if we're just going down to staff recommendations, I would probably go for For now, and with a commitment that we get something done in a time period that possibly a couple of members of staff, maybe two members of the council to review this and, again, to see if there's anything else we need. |
| 00:53:34.28 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mr. Mayor. |
| 00:53:35.14 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 00:53:35.17 | Sandra Bushmaker | you |
| 00:53:35.22 | Thomas Theodores | TO BE ABLE TO TAKE A |
| 00:53:35.46 | Sandra Bushmaker | you So I'm, of course, the minority viewpoint on this one. I see the Marinship Specific Plan as a very low priority, given what we're facing today in this town. But first, I want to acknowledge I would not call it urban. I would say like industrial and maritime services and artists. Regarding recent actions, they talk about the priority calendar and how the MSP was moved above the line. I voted against that twice. It was a majority vote that moved the MSP above the line. The WAM report, well, I was elected in 2008 because of the WAM report. Back then, people were attending meetings. I attended a couple, and I was very concerned, and I read the WAM report cover to cover and remained concerned. In fact, I was the one who pushed foreclosure and of course they were on the road to closure, but it was a top priority of mine to see what those final recommendations were. Thank you. In terms of the economic study, I voted for that in 2010 under the understanding that they would not look at rezoning with respect to the marineship. Of course they did. So the next time I voted no. for that extra $5,000 in 2012. Finally, I have a newsletter that I do, and I ran an infrastructure study. I had a few hundred folks respond to that. And the infrastructure and the major concerns of the residents in town, from my view and the feedback I've received, includes streets, storm drains, sidewalks, potholes, tennis courts, retaining walls, public land maintenance, street lights. Here we're talking about another sewer study for rates. Um, These and bicycle congestion, these are the things that residents are very concerned about. These are the things that we should be devoting staff time and perhaps creating a steering committee around. The Marinship Specific Plan The business owners that purchase property in the Marinship area knew what they were They need to get together and talk about a way to look at their infrastructure. And during the election, by the way, you know, residents heard, you know, various candidates mention public-private partnerships for the friendship. People really didn't understand what that meant. My concern is that we are, this is going to divert us, it's going to divert attention again, from the real priorities that we have got to start focusing on. and that is our infrastructure, our infrastructure here in the city proper of Sausalito, not privately held and owned property in the Marincia. |
| 00:57:00.10 | Ray Withy | Okay. Well, now that I got the dates right, I'm in 1988 when the Marineship Specific Plan was passed. and the traffic initiative the year before was just blockage. In 1988, it was passed. And it was outdated then. We have to look at it. positive thing that I look at is that Maybe 20, 25 years ago, we didn't know so much about global warming. So if we did it 25 years ago, we might be facing in the next 25 years that it would be all under water. I think we have an opportunity now to address this. attempt to get federal funds, state funds, and really do a good job of really updating our infrastructure down there. I think we have to also look at what is historical there. attempt to preserve those historical buildings and This would be a very, very foolish time for us to not put our attention into this, because this is, or could be, our economic future. If we let it go, then we just went back 25 years. If we move ahead, then it will give us the opportunity for the first time to be in the present and not live in the past. So I hope that we really don't leave the WEM report and all the other reports up on the We've seen enough reports to realize that You can only do so many reports. And then it's time to really... get things done. And I think now is the time to start getting things done down in the marineship. |
| 00:59:07.56 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 00:59:08.95 | Ray Withy | Very briefly, I just wanted to clarify one thing, Councilmember Pfeiffer. said, the Business Advisory Committee, working with the Marin Economic Forum, is currently working on a $5,000 study, which is specifically asking what is the economic potential and what are the business mix? with the current zoning, so it's not attempting to ask the question. I think personally we should, but at the moment they are not authorized to do that. They're just doing that. So that's just one clarification. So, It... It seems that this is a multifaceted problem, and Um, I think I agree with Council Member Theodorus that maybe we're one step away from the need to form a steering committee My recommendation, and I would like to make a motion that we... Uh, return this to staff and ask them to come back with a complete breakdown of a project over months, it may be a multi-year project, that outlines all the infrastructure improvements public-private partnerships. how we get the economic development analysis, and therefore the uses, but that this is broken down into steps so that the staff can come back, connect the dots for us, and show us how to move forward. Does that seem like where you were heading, Tom? |
| 01:00:53.99 | Thomas Theodores | Yes, the only thing is I would maybe amend it to possibly get a task force which have maybe two council members just to help with that process, to give some guidance during that process. |
| 01:01:04.98 | Mary Wagner | With staff. Thank you. |
| 01:01:05.86 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Which staff? Oh, of course, which staff. That's what I'm looking at. I would say staff and council at this stage, and then we're one step away from getting the community and business interests, property owners and such. |
| 01:01:16.40 | Ray Withy | So is that a motion you amend? Do you want to form an agreement? |
| 01:01:19.03 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:01:19.03 | Thomas Theodores | How are we doing? |
| 01:01:19.10 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:01:19.17 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you can make a note. Oh, Jeremy. Jeremy? Now that you heard staff. |
| 01:01:25.19 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yeah, Mr. Mayor. |
| 01:01:28.16 | Ray Withy | No. |
| 01:01:28.55 | Sandra Bushmaker | journey |
| 01:01:30.66 | Ray Withy | Go ahead, Jeremy. |
| 01:01:31.49 | Unknown | Thank you. I'm... Thank you. listening to the conversation, and this is a very fascinating conversation. I really appreciate it. |
| 01:01:36.87 | Thomas Theodores | I don't know. |
| 01:01:40.92 | Unknown | And I sense that we're on the cusp of a motion here, so I figured it's probably appropriate to give some staff observations. That was e-motion, Larry. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yes. |
| 01:01:50.25 | Ray Withy | That was emotional. |
| 01:01:52.95 | Unknown | And for, so I'm envisioning, okay, say the motion passes and we have our meeting tomorrow afternoon and staff is looking at each other Okay, great. Now what do we do? Now what does staff do with the action that we got from the council last night? And I'm looking, well, we can... |
| 01:02:20.17 | Unknown | We recognize from the conversation we've had, there are a great diversity of ideas of what should be done with the marineship. And so for the staff to provide a complete breakdown of the steps, that can be either a five-page breakdown of the steps or a 50-page breakdown of the steps. And for the staff to do a 50-page breakdown of the steps, that's going to be making |
| 01:02:45.55 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 01:02:45.76 | Unknown | many, many assumptions here which I think would serve, would be best tested by some feedback loops from the council and from the community. And so I think staff would benefit from having more direction here from the community and from the council before staff, before we begin to invest staff resources which may be going in a little off center here and then we need to bring it back. And so that's why some of these options here we're looking to get more, this is a good discussion but I think before the staff can identify the breakdown, we need some more direction, policy direction from some sort of an arrangement with council input and possibly other arrangements with community input. |
| 01:03:06.26 | Jonathon Goldman | . |
| 01:03:43.32 | Sandra Bushmaker | And, Mr. Mayor, can I respond to Jeremy's comments? Because he basically just said what I was just about to ask before you stepped to the microphone, which was, you know, the amount of staff resources required of this is, you know, is going to be, in my mind, very time consuming. Thank you. The other comment I wanted to make too, to Councilmember Withy's comment about the economic study. The problem is that the first time I voted for the economic study they told me the same thing. They said that it would stay within the current zoning of the Marinship. And so that's why when they came the second time for the 5,000 and said, oh, we would stay within the zoning, you know, I just couldn't vote for it again. If they stay within the zoning, that's great. But getting back to Jeremy's comment about staff time, I would actually move, I would not move, I would recommend that we wait until next month when we do the priority setting. because when we do the priority setting, you can see, because I think the new council members perhaps haven't seen all of the high priority issues that are on the list that pull staff time away. And we're not even talking about the road repair, the sewer repairs, the street lights, the tennis courts, the retaining walls, the storm drains. This in my mind, before we give direction for them to go and spend any amount of time on this, I think it's prudent to look at the MSP in framing of all the other The EPA mandates that you just heard about two meetings ago. for example, the time that is going to be implemented in that. So I would recommend we wait. We wait until priority setting so that you have an opportunity to compare all and weight all of the other issues that are before us. |
| 01:05:54.25 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:05:54.82 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 01:05:54.84 | Thomas Theodores | Adam. |
| 01:05:56.85 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, and I appreciate Chairman Graves' comments there, but I do think that What I'm hearing in terms of Councilmember Theodorus and Councilmember with these recommendation or the beginning of a motion. that if we take this information back What we've heard tonight, I think, is illustrated by many members of the public. There's been studies from 1960. all the way to now. And I think staff actually has a pretty good idea of what some of the components that were being recommended. give the staff and whichever two council members that the mayor selects to join us, give us the opportunity to kind of have this discussion. And we may come back at a at a future council meeting with recommendations that may not include appointing the steering committee. as our Community Development Director has pointed out, that there's a lot of components here and I am certain that other members of the community, after hearing tonight's presentation and some of the comments that are made and knowing that they can watch this Live or after the fact. um, may want to contact staff or council members with their comments and recommendations. I think that I've heard that this is the beginning of a process that beginning of the process might be more valuable especially to the public, Thank you. if we give a little bit more time and effort structure this and then come back to Council with next steps. |
| 01:07:36.56 | Thomas Theodores | and, you know, the Bye. |
| 01:07:37.44 | Ray Withy | I promise. I agree. |
| 01:07:39.60 | Thomas Theodores | I can. I agree with that, and I agree with Jeremy's concern. And I think one of the reasons we want to get a task force, and by the way, for all of the people out there, I think until we take it off, it's going to be an ongoing issue until we don't, in case we don't prioritize it. But I think it's important we start it now. One of the reasons is, one of the things I think we should do early is, how much is this going to cost us both in consultants and staff time, and what are we likely to do? So it'll actually help us when we come to priority setting in terms of at least getting this started. And, Jeremy, I agree with you. |
| 01:07:53.69 | Ray Withy | Yes. |
| 01:07:53.98 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 01:08:15.47 | Thomas Theodores | You can imagine your fears. And I think what we're going to have to do is take it in chunks and come back to the council as we make certain decisions, as we decide this is what it's likely to involve both with the community and resources, that this will be an ongoing issue. That's why I was recommended that we have council involved in this. That changes the process. |
| 01:08:33.56 | Unknown | That changes the dynamic and from a staff perspective, it turns the floor. |
| 01:08:35.86 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:08:35.91 | Adam Politzer | you |
| 01:08:35.98 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah. |
| 01:08:36.20 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 01:08:39.29 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:08:40.27 | Unknown | can't be. |
| 01:08:40.50 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:08:41.24 | Sandra Bushmaker | And Mr. Mayor, well, I mean, I think to that point, I would like to see the same type of time frame for the EPA mandates, as well as the housing element, second unit success and follow-up for any adjustments that have to be made there, as well as the little board issue. So, you know, I think that a case could be made for, if you just pull out the top priority list, we could make a case for seeing what the time commitments are for everything that was above the 25 mark or the 10 mark, which, you know, would just completely eat up staff time. So, you know, I just have obviously a lot of concerns about this and I think it's going to deviate as pull us away from what we really need to be |
| 01:08:41.26 | Thomas Theodores | I'm not sure. |
| 01:08:41.61 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:08:41.97 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:08:53.04 | Ray Withy | as well as the housing |
| 01:09:38.47 | Sandra Bushmaker | focused on which are the basics. |
| 01:09:41.47 | Ray Withy | Well, if the basics fall apart with that infrastructure and everything else down there, you won't have to worry about that. Let's go ahead, Ray. |
| 01:09:50.04 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 01:09:50.72 | Ray Withy | There's no point in having a priority discussion tonight because, as you point out, we're going to have that in the priority calendar discussions over a couple of months. I'm very well aware of what the priority calendar says and in fact I'll give you a preview. When it comes to that, I'm going to be arguing that the marineship analysis and action is probably up there with the EPA as the most important basic thing that this Council needs to do. So that's my view, but that's for the priority discussions. We're sort of potentially getting to a point where we could recommend that the mayor appoints two council members to work with staff at breaking out the problem, not trying to find solutions, but just breaking out the problem, getting it more depth, so that when we do have the priority calendar discussions, you've got a much more detailed |
| 01:10:48.09 | Mary Wagner | Oh, my gosh. |
| 01:10:50.64 | Ray Withy | beginnings of something to review rather than Yeah. It's been on the priority calendar for four times and nothing's happened. |
| 01:10:59.03 | Sandra Bushmaker | It's, well, the majority put it on. Excuse me. That's the rules, Linda. That's the rules. Mr. Mayor, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to comment. Go ahead. So breaking out the problem, breaking out the marinship, how much staff time estimate are we looking at? I guess I'd address it to the city manager because you brought it up. |
| 01:11:00.02 | Ray Withy | Nothing's happening. And Mr. Mayor. That's the rules, Linda. |
| 01:11:08.51 | Ray Withy | Go ahead. |
| 01:11:22.16 | Adam Politzer | Yes, so the basic rule of the priority calendar is that it would be over 40 hours of staff time. That's the premise of the priority calendar. Is any item that on there recognize that it's a minimum of 40 hours of staff time. |
| 01:11:33.65 | Sandra Bushmaker | It's the first half time. Okay, so 40 hours of staff time, so that's a cumulative 40 hours of staff time. Yeah, but again... Not five people spending 40 hours. No, it's... |
| 01:11:43.06 | Adam Politzer | Not five. No, it's a minimum of 40 hours. It's not a maximum of 40 hours. If it's under 40 hours, then it shouldn't be on the priority calendar. Um, And just also clarification, the priority calendar runs from July 1 to June 30, so we're still in this year's priority calendar. When we go through the exercise of the priority calendar, later next month. it will be setting up for July 1 of 2013 through June 30th of 2014. With the understanding that we have that aligned with the budget process So if there are dollars that need to be allocated as what was mentioned, on contractors. facilitators or anything to the like. were able to... make those recommendations in concert with the budget. |
| 01:12:32.94 | Sandra Bushmaker | Well, Mr. Mayor, the priority calendar that I'm looking at for 12 to 13 with Simmership's specific plan at least Is this correct initially at line 36? And I'm looking at, assessment replacement funding for storm drains, streetlights, sidewalks, streets, moorage and water access piers and bulkheads. I know we've made some progress on this, but You know, I don't have a whole picture as to how much bandwidth is needed to kind of drive all of this to fruition, and that was item number seven. Stairways number 17. |
| 01:13:19.98 | Sandra Bushmaker | So these are things that, you know, I think we, I would like to see personally. Pension studies and other posts, OPEB, Number 22, all of these were higher than the MSP. I understand we have, you know, a different council makeup, and it's okay if I'm a minority viewpoint on this. I just, going in the priority calendar, if I'm going to have that much detail on the MSP, which is 36, I'd like to at least have the same for storm drains, sidewalks, streets, as well as the pension studies and OPEB. |
| 01:13:43.24 | Bruce South | So I'm going to have that. |
| 01:13:54.36 | Ray Withy | Pulse. Not very. We get a report on a virtually, certainly a quarterly basis on every council meeting I've been to so far, we've been talking about something to do with infrastructure, storm drains, bicycle, you know, ad finitum. |
| 01:14:10.24 | Thomas Theodores | I'm not. |
| 01:14:10.29 | Sandra Bushmaker | them. you |
| 01:14:11.42 | Ray Withy | The Marinship Pacific Plan hasn't been talked about at all. And it's on the priority calendar. |
| 01:14:17.02 | Sandra Bushmaker | I, Yeah. |
| 01:14:18.05 | Ray Withy | It was previously, the previous council, dedicated resources to this. Otherwise it wouldn't be there. At least 40 hours as our |
| 01:14:30.29 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yeah. Mr. Mayor, so what we had with EPA and what we had with the pensions and the budgets, et cetera, was the same basically of what we're getting tonight. We're getting updates and status reports. We're getting here's the status right now. We're getting here's, you know, what needs to happen. What we're not getting is what is the scope and how much, how many resources are needed. What is the timeline for when we're going to get from point A to point B? I'm not seeing that whole thing. Hence the work that's done. |
| 01:15:01.82 | Ray Withy | I'm not. Hence the work that staff needs to do. |
| 01:15:05.42 | Sandra Bushmaker | I'm saying my point here is that if we're doing, why are we doing it for item 36 and not item 22, 17, and frankly, 1 through 35? |
| 01:15:17.98 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:15:18.02 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:15:19.41 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:15:19.78 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:15:19.81 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:15:20.17 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Go ahead, Tom, you can, and then I'll go. |
| 01:15:23.22 | Thomas Theodores | Well, If it's above the line in the priority calendar, that means the Council can take it. We don't do it by a rank basis. It's up before us now. We're going to vote about whether we're going to do it. I think most of the people in this room and certainly on this Council, the majority of the Council think this is an important matter that we're going to go forward with. Certainly in terms of a task force to see what the next steps are. that there may be some blockage, but we're likely to be moving along on this, certainly to a place where we decide that we are going to change the partnership-specific plan or we're going to keep it as it is. And I don't think that... If we got into every item that came before Council and tried to compare it to every other item on its priority, we would spend all our time prioritizing things. It's before us now. I think we should vote on it and decide if we're going to go forward. I recommend we do. |
| 01:16:13.61 | Ray Withy | Well... Couple of comments. We talk about preservation down in the Marinship, but meanwhile, I don't really consider blight preservation. There's no question in my mind, if you really look at the last every year that I've always, that I've been on the priority list, I've always put marineship in the top five, some of them number two. as far as the most important. The marineship is our economic future. Very important. The way that Marinship Specific Plan is set up now is destined for us to live in the past, and we'll never get ahead. So with that, |
| 01:17:01.39 | Adam Politzer | I... Sometimes I have to interject because when statements are made, that I don't feel are accurate, I do need to respond. When you look through one through all the way down to the Mariners-specific plan, we've actually made significant progress on every one of those items. uh, you know, EPA, you just got a massive report, Thank you. and how we work in concert with the the two other agencies that are a part of it. financial and planning, including a five-year plan and strategies. We just had an update from our finance director, at the last council meeting. the housing element. not only is it in progress, We just passed and been certified and it's taken 17 years to get there. We're done with that. We're now moving on to the future. Dumpy Park Improvement Plan. You had Jock Loman come here and talk about how that's going to move forward. Marinship Historic District and Historic Registration, nomination you're going to hear a report tonight about the machine shop and the efforts that we've taken over the past year in identifying the historic nature of those facilities. ADA plan. If you look at all the ADA improvements that we've made in the city, assessment, replacing funding, storm drains, streetlights, sidewalks. We just replaced all the streetlights with LEDs. Sidewalks, we're starting to take on the sidewalks. Disaster preparedness, you just got a report. from our very capable uh, uh, Sergeant Bill Frost, downtown historic. National Registry nomination. Again, these are things that the HLB and staff are working on. historic preservation. Another thing that is on the list of the HLB and staff has made significant progress on The machine stuff. restoration and preservation, again, you'll hear that tonight, playground park improvements, Harrison Park is a good example of that. Robin Sweeney is another. The downtown parking plan, Cass Marina. You heard Adam Carvazzi talk about that. Stairways, we're working on a variety of stairways, some in under litigation. Zoning ordinance amendment, staff has spent a lot of time on making changes and recommendations either through the legislative committee prior to this new council and coming forward in the near future. with some recommendations on Next Step. City Hall Rehabilitation. our doors, our restroom here. The library, a good example of that, Friends of the Park. The park and rec is working on that downtown and Calinonia Street employee and merchant offsite parking. We brought to you opportunity for valet parking service. Pension studies. We got recognized with an award for significant improvements to pensions. We brought in a new tier. before the governor's plan so we now have three pensions and we've got rid of OPEP which is other employment benefits. America's Cup. We brought forward opportunities there for people to rent their homes and create regulations and work obviously with the Chamber Supervisor Kate Sears on that. shoreline restoration, The $6 million bulkhead project is an example of that, or the project on on right here off of Tourney Street's another one where the Public Works Director brought forward a bulkhead let alone what our volunteers do in the community, and what the folks at Cass Marina have done in volunteer opportunities Bridgeway to ferry landing. ANOTHER BIG ONE. Private Surilateral Program, we give out grants and we continue to video and make improvements, And that gets you to the next item, which is the marineship-specific plan. So when you look at this, the items above the line, and you got a preview of what will be coming before the Priority counter, I think staff should be commended on the work that we have done with the resources we have to actually make significant progress on each of those items that are above the line. |
| 01:20:47.95 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mr. Mayor, if I may respond. |
| 01:20:48.98 | Adam Politzer | funny. |
| 01:20:50.33 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yeah, and I want to congratulate staff on the progress that they've made. But you've really also kind of made my point. The city manager has made my point. When success is based on a status report as opposed to performance objectives where the scope is clearly defined and budgets, schedule, and resources are clarified, then the goal then we have an understanding of how much staff time over how long, how many resources are required. If we are judging success just by status reports, then everything is an A, because every status report is good job. So what I'm hearing my peers up here say with respect to the Mariners-specific plan is they want to see that whole breakdown, that whole scope, that work breakdown structure as we say in project management. terminology. And I'm just saying I want the same thing. I want the same thing for these other things. The streets, the roads, the infrastructure in Sausalito that people are concerned about. And by the way, with pension, how about looking at the GASP legislation coming up? |
| 01:22:08.31 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:22:08.49 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 01:22:09.05 | Ray Withy | Um, The Marin ship is in Sol Soledo, most of it. |
| 01:22:16.29 | Ray Withy | With that, I'd like to make a motion that this We ask staff to conduct I've broken a little here. |
| 01:22:26.47 | Ray Withy | Well, he said. analysis. Well, he said you have a five page or a |
| 01:22:29.79 | Ray Withy | Right. the mayor will appoint two city council members to liaise with the community development department or whoever to start planning that scope of work. |
| 01:22:46.93 | Thomas Theodores | Okay. Second. Okay. |
| 01:22:50.06 | Ray Withy | All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Thank you. |
| 01:22:53.55 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yes, I know. |
| 01:22:53.62 | Ray Withy | Yes or no? Opposed? |
| 01:22:55.59 | Sandra Bushmaker | No, and I'd like to respond that the Marinship is a part of Sausalito, but it's also privately owned. The rest of Sausalito, we have city owned sewers. We've heard about the challenges with the sewers and that's what I was referring to. |
| 01:23:11.34 | Ray Withy | Well, I own my house, but that doesn't mean that in front of my house that I'm responsible for the sewer lateral and the sidebar. So it's a working thing. You missed the bus? I did miss the bus. Okay, well, at least we know it's raining out. |
| 01:23:23.18 | Thomas Theodores | Well, |
| 01:23:27.40 | Ray Withy | THE END OF THE END OF THE All right, and so this time here, I'd like to appoint Ray Withey and Tom Theodoros on that, representing the Council. All right. |
| 01:23:41.20 | Thomas Theodores | What you did? So go ahead. |
| 01:23:42.17 | Ray Withy | Just say yes for me anyway. No, but we... Okay. |
| 01:23:45.39 | Thomas Theodores | No, we... All of a steam. Yeah. |
| 01:23:50.96 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Let's move on. Is that satisfactory to you to get the direction that you were looking for? And thanks to the others for speaking on this. And Mother Marin, you will see the wham off the shelf. All right, next item that we'll move to is status update on the Marinship. And you're on, Heidi. |
| 01:24:19.29 | Heidi Scoble | Good evening, Mayor Wenner, members of the City Council. Good evening, members of the public. I'm just waiting for my presentation to come up. Thank you, Debbie. |
| 01:24:19.58 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mayor Wenner, members of the City Council. |
| 01:24:21.74 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:24:22.60 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 01:24:22.75 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:24:22.78 | Sandra Bushmaker | the |
| 01:24:22.84 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:24:33.82 | Thomas Theodores | And So, |
| 01:24:38.02 | Thomas Theodores | you |
| 01:24:38.11 | Thomas Theodores | you |
| 01:24:38.16 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:24:38.19 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:24:38.36 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:24:38.41 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:24:38.48 | Thomas Theodores | Uh, |
| 01:24:38.70 | Thomas Theodores | Yes. |
| 01:24:39.79 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Did you vote on anything or you just appointed a task force? |
| 01:24:42.71 | Ray Withy | No, not a task force. We appointed two council people to work with the staff on coming up with recommendations. |
| 01:24:51.22 | Thomas Theodores | of a plan or that outline plan? |
| 01:24:52.77 | Ray Withy | Thank you. the project of scope. |
| 01:24:54.17 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:24:55.59 | Thomas Theodores | I'm going to tell you something. |
| 01:24:58.02 | Sandra Bushmaker | You came in five seconds after they voted on the Marine ship, the steering committee they wanted to vote. |
| 01:25:00.52 | Thomas Theodores | I'm not sure. |
| 01:25:01.95 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:25:02.02 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:25:02.42 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:25:04.73 | Sandra Bushmaker | you |
| 01:25:05.21 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah, I just saw that last thing and I'll just say sorry for being late. The marinship plan has done what it was supposed to do and that's for strict development. That's the whole point of zoning in the first place. I don't agree with that action plan. I don't think the business advisory committee has anything to do with what happens in the marinship. But that's what we decided to do. |
| 01:25:26.66 | Ray Withy | I'm sorry, you know, we took the video, we sent the calendar to the. Okay, Heidi. Sorry, you're in. |
| 01:25:36.61 | Heidi Scoble | Thank you. The purpose of this agenda item is to provide a status update on the machine shop. This agenda item is for information purposes only and staff is not, requesting any action on this item. As you know, the machine shop was one of the original buildings that was part of the Marin Shed Corporation shipyard that was being used from 1942 to 1945 for the construction of 93 ships during World War II. The project site, and I apologize for my presentation. I should have adjusted the brightness on it. But as you know, the machine shop is located within the Wernship specific plan area. The zoning is public institution. It is located at 25 Literary Ship Way. Adjacent land uses would be the Bay Model to the north. We have the Clipper Yacht Harbor Basin 1. and the Liberty Ship Marina to the east. 10 to 25 where you shift to the south, and we have Bridgeway and the neighborhood commercial zoning districts along Bridgeway to the west. So on October 5th, 2010, the Department of Veterans Affairs, and I'm going to refer to them as VA from this point forward, presented in front of the City Council a development concept which was proposing to demolish the machine shop and construct an approximate 16,000 square foot building. After that presentation, City Council directed staff to provide a pretty aggressive program with the attempt of preserving the building. The first attempt was an aggressive letter writing campaign and staff wrote a letter to the California Office of Historic Preservation. the Advisory Council of Historic Preservation, the VA's Federal Preservation Officer, as well as the National Trust for Historic Preservation. The purpose of these letters was to ensure that the VA would be responsible in undertaking the Section 106 process. And the Section 106 process is essentially that whenever a federally funded project is being presented, that they need to do a historic analysis of that building to determine if the project is gonna be sufficient. The next item that staff approached was we reached out to elected officials. Staff met with former supervisor Charles McLachin, supervisor Kate Sears, We met with representatives of Senator Robert Voxer. We also met with representatives of Congresswoman Lynn Woolsey. And most recently, staff met with Jared Huffman and his assistant, Jenny Callaway. And Vice Mayor Leone attended that most recent meeting. The City Council also allocated funds for the preparation of a historic resource evaluation report and survey. After the VA's original presentation in 2010, it was unclear as to whether, what the historical significance of that building was. And we knew that the VA was going to undertake a report as part of the Section 106 process, but we just didn't have enough information to know what really was historically significant about that building. So the city hired Christopher Replank to prepare a study that was concluded on April 2011, and it identified that the building is eligible for the National Register as a rare property type associated with World War II, |
| 01:28:41.06 | Bruce South | at Batchesville. |
| 01:28:55.64 | Heidi Scoble | and also that it was a rare intact World War II industrial shipyard building. So essentially, it's historically significant based on its events and architectural style. And most recently, this past September 2012, the City Council placed this building on the city's local historical register. What this means is that any exterior modification to this building from this point forward basically requires a design review permit to be reviewed by the Planning Commission and Historic Landmarks Board. The caveat to that would be that the VA is federally preempted from that requirement. So it's somewhat of a classification, but still provides some layer of protection. The City Council also directed staff to pursue the nomination of this building for the National Register, and staff is currently working on that as well. So where are we today and what have we done? So most recently on January 8th of this year, staff met with representatives of the VA in order for the VA to give us a status update on where they're at. And essentially the VA identified that the machine shop is being reassessed by their planning division, not their construction management division. Originally the construction management entity was moving forward with the demolition of the building and now they're taking a second look at it. The VA also indicated that they cannot give the building back to the city based on their federal infrastructure right now, and that the machine shop is too costly to rebuild based on their current funding. They do have a proposed concept for the use of that site, and that would be for a dry lab. And they're still moving forward with an idea to demolish the building, but they're proposing to keep the waterfront facing facade. They would recreate the same roof line. They would construct an 8,000 to 10,000 square foot building instead of what currently is a 27,000 square foot plus building today. They would remove the Butler Building, which would be that series of buildings that's directly adjacent to the water, and they would construct a waterfront access area where the Butler Building currently is located. So in response to that meeting on January 8th, staff has prepared a letter dated February 25th, which we sent to them. And the purpose of this letter was to re-summarize what the city heard at that January 8th meeting, but also to reiterate the importance of this building, and also to reiterate that the VA is obligated to pursue the Section 106 process. And we also reiterated a provision of the National Historic Preservation Act, which states that the VA is required to maintain the building in a way that considers the preservation of that resource. So the VA has big shoes to fill in terms of demonstrating that that building is not historically significant and if they want to go down that process and that essentially they're going to need to preserve the building. Staff also identified potential funding sources to offset the cost of construction. possibilities out there at the federal level that the VA might be able to tap into, but they haven't looked into that yet. And we also asked the VA a series of follow-up questions regarding the timeline of when they are considering construction of the building, when they plan on coming up with an architectural design of the building, what they're going to do to protect the building in the interim, and also how they're going to demonstrate compliance with the Secretary of the Interior Standards for the treatment of historic properties. So that's pretty much where we're at today. So I'm available to answer any questions that you may have. |
| 01:32:51.14 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:32:51.23 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:32:51.50 | Ray Withy | Yeah. |
| 01:32:52.38 | Thomas Theodores | Jonathan? |
| 01:32:53.07 | Thomas Theodores | Hmm. |
| 01:32:53.66 | Thomas Theodores | The local register filing thing, even though, you know, obviously federal law preempts that, but it doesn't it, by adopting it on the local register, doesn't it make it eligible for the state register as well? |
| 01:32:53.76 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:33:03.43 | Heidi Scoble | Thank you. Not necessarily. In terms of... |
| 01:33:05.03 | Thomas Theodores | I mean, eligible versus being on the state register. |
| 01:33:08.10 | Heidi Scoble | The historic resource evaluation report prepared by the city identifies that the building is eligible for the state and national, but the local level register process has a lesser criteria. So just because it's on our local register doesn't mean it elevates it to the state or |
| 01:33:23.14 | Thomas Theodores | Right. Right? Thank you. Right. There's a criteria for one thing, but just let's assume for sake of argument the criteria were the same. By, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, and I may well be, is by putting it on the local register, which there's only a handful of things on, right, five, six or something, that by default makes it eligible. Not necessarily, let's assume it for the state. Isn't that correct? If the criteria were essentially the same? It doesn't put it on the list, but it makes it eligible so the state has to review it if something is proposed there. I don't know how that interacts with federal law. Is that anywhere near correct? |
| 01:33:34.19 | Bruce South | you |
| 01:33:39.09 | Bruce South | By putting it on the... |
| 01:34:02.85 | Heidi Scoble | Not necessarily. Okay. So. For buildings to be recognized by the state as being eligible, you essentially need to submit what we call a DPR 523 form to the state of California and then it goes on their database. And what we did as part of this historic resource evaluation that we did back in 2011 is that once the city council adopted that report, we actually sent that report to the state and they have since then put that into their database. But the only way it actually gets in the database is if we send it to them or someone sends it to them. |
| 01:34:04.69 | Thomas Theodores | Okay, so. |
| 01:34:07.11 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:34:07.13 | Thomas Theodores | Okay. |
| 01:34:14.45 | Mary Wagner | Right. |
| 01:34:38.42 | Unknown | And then Matt, if I could, |
| 01:34:40.86 | Thomas Theodores | Yes, you may. Does the property owner have to submit it to the state versus, you know, is it an open process like our historic register in which anyone can submit it or? |
| 01:34:51.24 | Heidi Scoble | Unfortunately, once you get to the state and national register level, the property owner has to sign the application form. However, I believe at the last meeting that I attended and presented in front of the city council, we had one of our Historic Landmarks Board members, Carolyn Kiernat, who actually met with the VA's Federal Preservation Officer in Washington, D.C., and described what we've gone through to date. And at that time, that VA preservation officer had stated that she would help facilitate the National Register nomination process. So the ball is in Staff's Court at this point in time. We have a draft professional services agreement to hire a consultant to prepare the necessary paperwork. And it's just a matter of priorities and moving it forward. |
| 01:35:35.94 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yes. Mr. Mayor. So Heidi, what, I know that there's no action here, but what specifically then, what steps could this council take to support city staff in moving forward? |
| 01:35:49.85 | Heidi Scoble | Thank you. Unfortunately, nothing at this time. You know, staff is, we've reached out to the VA. We're waiting for the VA to come back. Staff is diligently working with reaching out to elected officials. I see our city manager wanting to jump in. |
| 01:36:05.46 | Adam Politzer | Yes, because actually Heidi and I have had a conversation And in the letter, one of the things that we were proposing, which I ended up pulling out, was asking the Council tonight to Um, Great. the I guess formally recognized the working group that has been working with Heidi and that's Carolyn Karnat and Mike Kelly, And if the council wants to appoint anyone else to join that group, or Council Member wants to join them. That way there's an opportunity for us to get a little more expertise and resources to assist Heidi and the Community Development Department continuing to move this forward. She can't do it by herself and the work that Mike, Kelly and Carolyn have already provided to us, Mike was doing it at the capacity of the mayor before he left the council. But we never formally recognized this group. when we met with Jared Huffman and had an opportunity to meet with, afterwards with Vice Mayor Leon, that was one of the recommendations that, probably could come forward tonight, but Heidi's exactly correct. There was really, this was more of an update to make sure that you were abreast of what was going on because of the latest meeting. that we had with the VA and they had a changing of the guard. and then the recent meeting with our newly elected congressman and his support on our efforts here. So if you would like to take action tonight, then that would be one of them. |
| 01:37:42.19 | Sandra Bushmaker | So, Adam, just for clarification, you were saying that action would be, first of all, recognition for the team that had worked on this before. And then is there anything else we can do? Would it be appointing, you know, a couple city or one city council member to... |
| 01:37:42.41 | Adam Politzer | question. |
| 01:37:42.79 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:37:42.93 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 01:38:06.37 | Sandra Bushmaker | help as a resource to kind of continue the momentum on this? |
| 01:38:12.27 | Adam Politzer | Yeah, and in the past I think that both Council or Vice Mayor Leon and the Mayor Kelly at the time were actively working with us Carolyn Connaught, as Heidi has mentioned, was a valuable resource to us. So if the Council wants to point up to two members, board one, to work with staff and then work with the two residents. And it doesn't mean that this committee can't grow in time, but at least get them formally recognized. That would probably be helpful. |
| 01:38:43.90 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:38:43.95 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:38:44.25 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:38:45.37 | Ray Withy | Yes, ma'am. Could I ask if there has been any discussion in the past about what our endgame is? You know, at the moment it looks like what we're making are tactical moves to try and stop the VA doing what their initial plans were. And maybe they're now reconsidering. Has there been any discussion maybe up here in the past, Council, or whatever, as to, okay, well, what's our endgame? |
| 01:39:14.56 | Thomas Theodores | I appreciate living in that building. Thank you. |
| 01:39:19.91 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:39:20.30 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:39:21.21 | Thomas Theodores | Okay. |
| 01:39:21.29 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:39:21.40 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. I mean, I can, you know, and you two correct me if I'm wrong, and staff and Heidi, I think the goal here was to have the |
| 01:39:23.25 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:39:29.73 | Thomas Theodores | you know, protect this building because this building has a, forget the historical, in the recent history of this building and just in terms of what's been happening with it. But inside the federal government, it's been kind of like a throwing around excess piece of property and without any regard to what sits on it. And it's doubly, crazy is the only word I can think of at the moment, that the Veterans Administration, wants to tear down a piece of Navy history. It boggles the mind. And every time whoever is running the local branch of the Veterans Administration in San Francisco seems to turn over every five years or so, they have this vision, once they got a hold of it, of tearing it down, and then they realize by the time they go through it, Well, this is going to be a little more effort than I thought. and I don't really have that much money to do it, and they don't have enough money to, even if they tore it down and it was on a stable piece of property and it wasn't fill and sinking, They couldn't build it for what they had, but they don't want to see it that way, because if you start it, you have to finish it. I'm sure that's the way they view it. Once they start spending money on it, it will take care of itself in the federal budget. So the end goal here is, hey, you have to comply with the regulations that any other of the federal government would have to comply with if this is a historic property on the National Register, which we feel, and we finally spent the money to do the research as a council. I think this is on our priority calendar. I don't know what number it is anymore, but |
| 01:41:07.20 | John Cox | Thank you. |
| 01:41:07.45 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:41:09.46 | Thomas Theodores | It's pretty high up there. is, hey, you know, keep this building. |
| 01:41:14.54 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:41:14.90 | Thomas Theodores | We don't care what you do inside of it because we can't control that, right? They're outside of our zoning regulations, but the building is subject to, I mean, we care, but we can't control what would go on inside. |
| 01:41:19.62 | Thomas Theodores | the building is subject to |
| 01:41:26.69 | Thomas Theodores | So respect the pet, show the same respect that we would encourage any |
| 01:41:32.95 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 01:41:33.27 | Thomas Theodores | I mean, this is... But you can't get much more historic provenance than this one. It just doesn't have to be 100 years old. people of all races moved here to work in this building. It's just crazy town that you would tear it down. Plus, these are kinds of buildings that people would love to be in. Once they're rehabbed, if you look anywhere else, and we know what's happening, South Market, San Francisco, this is what Bruce is building. expensive to do, but they're funky and they're cool and they have history and you |
| 01:42:01.20 | Ray Withy | do. |
| 01:42:05.03 | Ray Withy | you |
| 01:42:05.30 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:42:05.42 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:42:05.57 | Thomas Theodores | Thanks. |
| 01:42:05.66 | Ray Withy | Yeah. and maintain being a part of history. |
| 01:42:08.83 | Sandra Bushmaker | So do we need, Mr. Mayor, do we need to make a motion to form a... |
| 01:42:12.52 | Ray Withy | Well, first of all, I have to, if there are any questions up here at this time, let's have the public comment on the public comment, please. Well, I knew you were sitting in the front row for something. I'm good. |
| 01:42:28.47 | Bruce South | I'm Bruce South. |
| 01:42:28.98 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Uh, |
| 01:42:31.17 | Bruce South | And I happen to spend eight to ten hours a day right across the street from this building. It's my neighbor. |
| 01:42:36.18 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:42:36.94 | Bruce South | I'd like to caveat my comments with a couple things. Number one, Heidi Scoble is probably my favorite staff member in this city and has been for a long time. So anything I have to say has no direct reflection on how I feel about this. Number two, I completely understand that council has |
| 01:42:50.81 | Mary Wagner | how I feel about what she's done. |
| 01:42:57.88 | Bruce South | set a high priority for historic preservation. I don't really understand that. I think that in our development activities, we've respected that. at least to the point of architectural preservation in all of our buildings, from 85 Liberty Shipway throughout. the entire Scrooermaker point. It's also a personal a priority of mine to respect the past. However, It's my sincere opinion. that the Placement of this structure on the historical register is contributing to the blight membership Um, I don't necessarily agree or disagree with what the VA wants to build there? I never have. We've been sitting across from a vacant building for 12 years. We've watched the city diddle with it for five years. We've watched the VA diddle with it for five years. We've watched it deteriorate. We've watched the homeless in there. We've watched vandalism. The list is endless. And if any one of you live next door to that building, For the last 12 years, I think any one of you would feel the same way. I respect the historical process. I respect what you're trying to accomplish. I do think, however, that there needs to be some conversation and accommodation with the VA, It doesn't... demand the preservation of the entire structure, particularly the entire footprint You cannot park that building. If they try and redevelop it and they try and park that building, the burden is going to fall upon us. and upon all the properties around there, And I can speak for virtually every property owner down there in that respect that. They can't park it. They never could park it. The only reason the Army Corps could park it is because they had the other facilities. So, Trying to preserve the footprint, I think, is the worst thing. that possibly can happen. I did read the historical evaluation or historical report The main historical value of that building appears to be in the use or in the activities that occurred there, not in the architecture and not in the structure. There is some recognition of the structure, but there's plenty of examples of those buildings in the Marin Ship that have been preserved structurally. A mic now? Anyway, I'll just wrap it up. I really When appeal to counsel. to appeal to staff to try and get the VA and get a compromise that works for everybody here. This building is, in my mind, a building that should have burnt down a while ago and probably if something isn't done to either preserve it or to restore it. So, thank you. |
| 01:46:06.07 | Ray Withy | Thank you, Bruce. Vicki? |
| 01:46:12.57 | Vicki Nichols | I'd like to speak with my HLB hat on a little bit. First of all, I'd like to really thank Heidi, who has been priceless with us, with her knowledge about the historical preservation process and the liaison that she's provided to us. I respectfully hear Bruce's sentiments, but there is no mitigation when you tear something down historical. So if you leave a part of it, that is not the same building. So this really is a very clear definition and a reason and an example of the building needing to be remaining in its site as it is. And one other thing that I think is that I think you know, the yard was famous for was a labor issue here that is now credited in these reports that became the part of the labor movement with the Boilermakers Union and a lawsuit that went all the way up to the federal government and they prevailed. So a lot of history has been uh, lived at this yard that we have no other facility in the Bay Area that's as comprehensive as this. These buildings look old and funky because they are. They were built for five years. They were built out of plywood to save metal for the war. So they were not meant to be fancy. They're very vernacular, which just means no fancy particular style. Tom knows this from the HLB. They are what they are. They were functional, and they provided an amazing contribution to the war effort. But I am upset now. I was down there recently, and the roof even looks like it's starting to cave in more. um, have been inside and seen the inside of this. It's clearly the result of the tiles being stripped off the roof There's water, there's spaces on the roof that the water comes straight through, and this is complete neglect. I know the city has tried to address this with these letters that I read in the staff report, But, this has to happen, that there's some action on this. They are obligated to do this. why this is being resolved. And I'd also like to speak about Mike and Carolyn's efforts. Carolyn, as you know, is on our HLB, and this is what she does professionally. She's also been invaluable. and took it upon herself to make time when she was on the East Coast to go to the VA back there and really help with sources and make some liaisons and some contacts. We do have a liaison from the Council now. I don't think we need a whole committee to do this because I think a lot of this is just following up and the more people that I don't think you need that many people. We've got Carolyn who's our professional, who does this for a living. And, but we need to press them. I'd just also like to ask quickly though, First they said there was $7 million to demolish this. That's what they had for the project. Then they saw that there was going to be some, they meaning the VA, there was going to be some pushback and all of a sudden they got $7 million to do some maintenance or some, not full restoration, but get a roof on it or get some tarps on it. It is just, as it's raining right now, it's filling with water. It's ridiculous. |
| 01:49:48.01 | Ray Withy | Thank you, Vicky. |
| 01:49:55.56 | Alice Merrill | Hi, Alice Merrill. Hi. Still can't get used to the haircut. It looks good. It looks good. I hear the Butler Building brought up, so I have to come and be Charlie's voice for a minute. |
| 01:49:56.67 | Thomas Theodores | Hi. I'm just narrow. Still can't get used to the haircut. It looks good. It looks good. |
| 01:50:12.36 | Alice Merrill | Um... The Butler Building has been talked about by the RBMA for a long time to be a little museum for waterfront history. And what Michael Rex did a drawing and did a nice thing. And when they talk about tearing it down and having waterfront access, It seems to me that if that's really a plan, then it maybe, Maybe something could be done to incorporate that building as a little museum. They've got wood from my father's house, they've got all his books, they've got all the tools from Myron Spaulding's You know, they have a really lot of really cool things that they could put into this and make it a neat place. And I know that Amy and Michael Rex, who's the president of the RBMA now, and Amy Belser, Both tried very hard to get a hold of people on... in the military and were pretty much turned away, turned away, turned away. If you guys have gotten at least a little bit farther than they did, you know, talk to them. Keep it in mind because It's been talked about. Michael Rex, I think when you mentioned parking, I think that's what you meant by that, when you can't park it. I'm not sure what that meant. Michael Rex worked out a whole parking thing You know, he'll figure out things so that they didn't have to tear that down to make it be parking. At one point, that's what they said. That's how they would get their parking. So I'd just like that to be at least on the radar for those guys to get something going. And it would be a really nice thing and it could be volunteer run like the ice house is and be a neat thing. Thanks. |
| 01:52:11.06 | Ray Withy | Okay, thank you. Any other comments from the public? Okay, let's bring it back up here for comments. |
| 01:52:20.07 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mr. Mayor, based on what I've heard, I have just another question for Heidi. |
| 01:52:27.62 | Sandra Bushmaker | So Heidi, I'm concerned when I hear that they ripped off the tiles and that now Rain can get in. If you were, earlier you heard we were talking about scope, schedule, resources, if you were going to set a time frame in terms of, start fixing this? What, I mean obviously yesterday would be the best answer, Is there, and it's okay if you don't know, but is there some sort of a framework that we could you know, set to say it's got to be make or break. you know, with them in terms of working with them to get get something, get some momentum going in making repairs or changes? |
| 01:53:08.19 | Heidi Scoble | changes. Unfortunately, the city is not in a position where we can mandate a timeline. However, the silver lining to that would be that staff has been in close communication with Brian Lesher with the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation. And most recently, I sent him all the documentation on this building to date. And he's very concerned with the VA's neglect of the building. And it stated that he was going to have a meeting with the VA preservation officer and see if there's something that they can do in the immediate future to make sure that the building in the term that is used is mothballed or to protect the building from the environment. |
| 01:53:48.90 | Sandra Bushmaker | Does he have a hammer? Does he have a fine? Does he have anything he can do to kind of put a stick with that carrot or? |
| 01:53:56.36 | Heidi Scoble | He does. He has political hammers. The Advisory Council on Historic Preservation is a very powerful group that does have some power. It's not a panacea, but they can definitely put pressure on the VA to do something if they find that it's necessary. Thank you. |
| 01:54:15.21 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 01:54:15.35 | Heidi Scoble | Thank you. |
| 01:54:15.36 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:54:15.53 | Heidi Scoble | Thank you. |
| 01:54:15.55 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:54:15.77 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:54:16.18 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:54:16.28 | Ray Withy | Heidi. |
| 01:54:16.97 | Thomas Theodores | Amen. |
| 01:54:17.14 | Ray Withy | you |
| 01:54:17.39 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 01:54:17.63 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:54:17.74 | Thomas Theodores | you Heidi, just so folks are here in the loop as well, you know, you've had conversations with, I forget the entity of the Navy, |
| 01:54:28.36 | Heidi Scoble | the Naval Order. |
| 01:54:29.47 | Thomas Theodores | Yes, so there is support in... And we haven't found the right, and Jared Huffman sort of pledged that he would help us find the other side of the Navy coin help versus just the naval order. So there's, I don't know what Amy and other folks did in terms of the past, but it's like any government, and this is the federal government, so it's the biggest government. You've got to find the right people to talk to, and luckily we've, by making this, I think it's number five on our current priority calendar, we've allocated some of your normal staff time to this, which has been why it's gone anywhere to start. But so, yeah, you've managed to find various entities, whether it's state, federal, and the Defense Department, Department of Interior, all kinds of things where you're finding support. It's getting that all both coordinated. You have other things to do with your time. I think what Linda's question earlier, what can we do to help you, is one, I think there was some you kind of mentioned this I think before, Is there an opportunity if we whether it's through the subcommittee or with an outside consultant, yourself in the subcommittee, to Um. obviously we don't have this, we have some money in the budget for this, but I don't know what the exact amount is in my head, but we thought that far ahead, which normally the city council doesn't do, to actually, like, let's get to that next step. Like, one of the things you just talked about was, let's write file some something something with a something. I can't remember what it was earlier on. Not the state. There was something you mentioned about the, |
| 01:56:12.01 | Heidi Scoble | Well, it's the filing of the Department of Recreation DPR 523 form. |
| 01:56:16.70 | Thomas Theodores | Right, that aspect of the state and also provide the necessary ammunition for the preservation |
| 01:56:16.71 | Heidi Scoble | Thank you. |
| 01:56:25.94 | Heidi Scoble | through the National Historic Preservation Act. Thank you. |
| 01:56:28.81 | Thomas Theodores | No, for that, the person that Carolyn met with needed a bunch of stuff. And the only way to get government moving is you give them a bunch of stuff so they don't have to get it themselves. Right, yeah. |
| 01:56:31.21 | Sandra Bushmaker | Brian. |
| 01:56:37.20 | Heidi Scoble | Right, yeah, and that would be Brian Lesher with the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation. And his quote was he's, quote, unquote, sufficiently annoyed right now with the VAs. So he's definitely interested in this project. |
| 01:56:48.91 | Thomas Theodores | So it's going to take money and somebody's time to get the information in the right people's hands and to find those right people. |
| 01:56:51.80 | Heidi Scoble | too. |
| 01:56:57.11 | Thomas Theodores | Is that something that the we can help you do. |
| 01:57:00.91 | Heidi Scoble | You know, it's primarily an administrative task that staff probably spends maybe an hour or two once every week or every other week on it. So it's something that requires little maintenance but consistent maintenance. If the council would like to do something, staff would definitely entertain that for sure. I'm just not sure what that would be. |
| 01:57:08.45 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 01:57:08.47 | Thomas Theodores | on it. |
| 01:57:19.82 | Bruce South | I'm not going to be able to do that. |
| 01:57:20.70 | Adam Politzer | Right. |
| 01:57:24.33 | Adam Politzer | Yeah, I mean, just to, you know, I'm obviously a supporter of teams because you can do more with more people at the table, and some of the discussions may be just alerting the community or creating a letter writing campaign to whomever the right people may be. So it's not just coming from staff. So again, working with Caroline and Mike and the vice mayor and Heidi, that may be all that's necessary at this moment to come up with strategies and see if there's anything more than what Heidi is doing today. I think that we clearly want Heidi to be in the lead of this effort, but the more team members she has the possibilities will grow from there of what actions they can take. And when we meet with the VA, they come with their army of people. Um, And we come with a few of us. and we hold our ground, but again, if we have some other experts in the room, that also helps with our discussions with them. And as what was mentioned from the public, if there's a way to find some compromise that doesn't have any significant impact on what we're trying to preserve. then it's our effort to do so, which private partnerships, private-public partnerships are things that we presented to them. And it was like a foreign word to them. when we mentioned that. and trying to, again, extend an olive branch, handshake to how we can work together similar to the discussion we just had with Lord Baker at the last council meeting. Just one question from Mary. |
| 01:59:03.57 | Thomas Theodores | One question for Mary. Mary, again, this is probably preempted, but let's take, for example, these three properties here on Bridgeway between here and 7-Eleven that are basically falling down over time. Declaring something a nuisance, and whether that's preempted by, you know, the federal property ownership, what does that give you as far as a leverage tool? You know, if Bruce is correct, if he says that's blight and it's homeless people are living in it and it's, assume for the sake of argument, that's correct. If it's risen to that level of a problem, And I've heard similar stories that there's a lot of things that go on down there that aren't so great. What does that give us as a tool just for, you know, hey, put mixer, it's locked and it's secure and it's not, you know, leaking water or people aren't starting barbecues inside, you know, what does that give us as a tool in this case with the, |
| 02:00:00.54 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, declaring something a public nuisance in some respects, not necessarily for this building, can get you the exact result that you don't want. Right. Because in other situations where we've had this discussion, the fix would be to tear it down. And that's obviously what you're trying to avoid in this case. I think Heidi either specifically said or alluded to the fact that the National Preservation Act may give us a better ability to seek the VA taking steps to preserve the building than a public nuisance abatement action would do. |
| 02:00:11.53 | Unknown | Thank you. I'm sorry. |
| 02:00:39.41 | Heidi Scoble | And just to add on to that, there is that provision in the National Stargift Preservation Act. The issue is getting the right people to actually put the pressure on the VA to have them enforce it. |
| 02:00:49.75 | Thomas Theodores | Amen. |
| 02:00:50.54 | Mary Wagner | And that's something staff's discussed and, you know, we're looking at also. |
| 02:00:57.82 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:00:57.90 | Thomas Theodores | All right. As far as the history of the property, the city's never controlled this property. The city tried to negotiate with people at some point years back, but it never, you know, there was some attempt to acquire it for the city at some point, and it never really went anywhere. I think it showed an interest. |
| 02:01:11.79 | Ray Withy | I think. never went much further than that. I mean, well, Chris can tell you she's shaking her head. Come up, come up, come up, Mother Marin. |
| 02:01:13.71 | Thomas Theodores | I'm sorry. |
| 02:01:20.06 | Thomas Theodores | Come up, come up. Come up, Mother Marin. |
| 02:01:24.65 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:01:28.41 | Thomas Theodores | . |
| 02:01:28.87 | Chris Gallagher | Well, I'm sorry. |
| 02:01:29.17 | Ray Withy | I'm not sure. |
| 02:01:29.46 | Chris Gallagher | Thank you. |
| 02:01:29.56 | Ray Withy | And I stayed. Well, you'll just have to grin and bear it. |
| 02:01:29.80 | Chris Gallagher | and I stayed. I am going to go have a beer. But anyway, just so you know, and I don't want to wear my core hat, really, because I have my own opinions. |
| 02:01:34.57 | Ray Withy | But anyway. |
| 02:01:34.98 | Bruce South | Wait. |
| 02:01:45.13 | Chris Gallagher | as Chris Gallagher that sort of are similar to Bruce's. But anyway, We, me, I've complained to the VA about just the security down there. So they do have a security guard down there now that keeps an eye on things. And... I would just caution the city. You know, the VA has been very generous. All your dumpsters are down there. You're doing a lot of city, you know, public work. operations out of that. it a lot. and they've been very, very generous. since Don McCrory was with the police department and was acting public works director, I negotiated for the city to bring your dumpsters and everything down there and have your operation out of there so it wouldn't be at the corporation yard and disturb the neighbors. So I think it's wise. Be careful when you go in there sort of looking at the VA as an enemy because they have really assisted the city tremendously. They've also assisted Bay Cities tremendously by having that whole composting operation out of there. And it's still there, okay? And it hasn't moved. You know, the composting containers that are supposed to be distributed within a month back in August is still in that lot. And then the old containers come back and your old parking a little kiosk is down there and every other you know old newspaper stand comes down it has become the junkyard for the city so go home and clean that up I think it's really |
| 02:03:29.00 | Thomas Theodores | I think it's really important |
| 02:03:31.89 | Chris Gallagher | when you go in, the VA is cooperative in some ways in trying to be a partner with the city and help you out. They've been tremendous in providing the parking there for the art festival. They've let us use it over and over and over again for the art festival. So I just want to give that background a little bit. to Alice's point about Michael Rex, I mean, that Butler building is a pigeon coop now. I mean, It's interesting, you could stand down there, there's a hawk that sits on the wire and just waits for dinner to come out of that hole every night. I mean, there's no predator-prey relationship whatsoever. |
| 02:04:15.86 | Mary Wagner | haunted up. |
| 02:04:20.27 | Bruce South | So ever. |
| 02:04:22.90 | Chris Gallagher | Um... |
| 02:04:24.03 | Ray Withy | Yeah. |
| 02:04:24.05 | Chris Gallagher | part of being his |
| 02:04:24.97 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:04:25.02 | Chris Gallagher | I don't know. But I want you to know what's inside there right now. But anyway, just to go back to your original question, but I thought I should at least address some of those things. And when Michael brought up that parking issue, the |
| 02:04:25.87 | Ray Withy | No. |
| 02:04:26.53 | Thomas Theodores | . |
| 02:04:30.14 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 02:04:42.78 | Chris Gallagher | the Corps was willing to take the fence down between the VA and the core property that currently delineates the two properties to allow that to be parking so that the Butler building could be taken used as just a green area or whatever. And Frank Anicelli is hugely opposed to, you know, Michael Rex's proposal down there. So he's not the only one... Yeah, he's operating totally illegally out of his property. Well, I understand that, Jonathan. But so you've got another side of the coin. It's not the VA always who's the bad guy, I think. I just want to make sure we're looking at all these issues from all sides. |
| 02:05:13.68 | Thomas Theodores | Well, I understand that, Jonathan. |
| 02:05:25.30 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah. |
| 02:05:25.72 | Chris Gallagher | No. |
| 02:05:26.23 | Thomas Theodores | I hear you. |
| 02:05:26.50 | Chris Gallagher | But when you hear, what the government process is, when a federal building comes up, it goes through GSA, and the first right of refusal, one they look at it, can you use it for a homeless shelter? That's the first criteria. And then they go down the list and they give first rights of refusal to other federal agencies, then state agencies, then county agencies, then cities. So you guys would be on the bottom. of that. The city, and that was the fault of the Corps, because we had a colonel at that time that kept telling Amy that she could have it, And he didn't have the authority to do that. So that's where that confusion started that it was going to become part of the the city because I think Adam was Park and Rec Director then and we thought, well, wouldn't that be nice? We could open it all up as a park and rec area. So that's my little... caveat to the whole thing, but just realize there's a lot of city operations happening out of the VA that you guys don't pay for. |
| 02:06:28.73 | Ray Withy | Only problem is, Chris, is every time we meet with them on a six, seven month, they always bring in a new person. that comes in and he says, well, we already spent most of our money and we can't really move on this. It almost with every new person that comes in, it's almost like a step back rather than moving forward. |
| 02:06:51.16 | Chris Gallagher | Thank you. the core has the same issues. you know, because the Corps is trying to deal with it from another side of the fence. And they have the same issues too, but, and I've tried |
| 02:07:00.02 | Bruce South | But... |
| 02:07:00.07 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:07:00.24 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 02:07:01.84 | Chris Gallagher | facilitate both sides of it, trying to tell the VA very, I told them from the very beginning, You can come in and pretend you're the federal government and just snub your nose at everybody, but you've got to work with this community. And they didn't do that, and so this is sort of a result of them not playing nice. from the very beginning, but however, |
| 02:07:24.35 | Mary Wagner | It's still big. |
| 02:07:24.57 | Chris Gallagher | They are trying to do that now and it's a little too late. But yeah, we have the same frustrations. |
| 02:07:31.56 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 02:07:33.45 | Chris Gallagher | And I hear your pain, but I also I just want to make sure you never want to bite the hand of Fiji either, because they could come back and say, take all your dumpsters and crap and get it out of my property. But they do have at least a security guard down there, because I did pressure them for that, because I am afraid that somebody's going to set a fire in that thing. The copper was being stolen. There was people found in there doing drugs and, you know, all kinds of stuff. So hopefully we've kind of curtailed at least that operation for a while. |
| 02:08:12.31 | Ray Withy | Okay. Thank you, Chris. Okay, any other comments? |
| 02:08:17.38 | Unknown | Well, |
| 02:08:18.59 | Ray Withy | Yes, you may. |
| 02:08:19.98 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 02:08:20.13 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:08:20.21 | Unknown | No, that was the end of the public comment. |
| 02:08:20.95 | Thomas Theodores | I don't know. Is there any other public comment? Thank you, Chris. All right, we'll bring it back up here. Just, we won't tell the chief that you're going and driving. |
| 02:08:25.07 | Unknown | Thank you, Chris. All right, we'll bring it back up here. |
| 02:08:32.68 | Thomas Theodores | I don't want to score. |
| 02:08:39.97 | Ray Withy | . |
| 02:08:41.03 | Mary Wagner | I'm sorry. |
| 02:08:42.20 | Ray Withy | Okay. |
| 02:08:42.39 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:08:42.42 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Okay. And by the way, thank you very much, Heidi, for all your work going into this, because we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are if it wasn't for you. So thank you. And thanks, Jeremy, for letting it do it. Yes. |
| 02:09:04.91 | Sandra Bushmaker | Well, I just want to say that we've been talking a lot about the priority list tonight, and just to say that the This building, the machine shop is number 11. And number five is Marin Ship Historic District. And that kind of plays into this. You know, if you look at historic districts, they're historic because of the character of, you know, the buildings, you know, the historic character and that's why Thank you. |
| 02:09:34.09 | Thomas Theodores | She's left to follow Chris, I swear to God. |
| 02:09:34.11 | Sandra Bushmaker | See, she's left. |
| 02:09:36.67 | Thomas Theodores | That's what I see. |
| 02:09:36.72 | Sandra Bushmaker | That's why saving this building is so key. And I don't think you can divorce the activity that took place inside the building with the character of the building and what that projects. And I also want to, just on a side note, because we heard from Bruce tonight, commend |
| 02:09:37.84 | Vicki Nichols | Bye. |
| 02:09:37.87 | Bruce South | Bye. |
| 02:09:40.25 | Vicki Nichols | And- |
| 02:09:40.89 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:09:56.74 | Sandra Bushmaker | that building, that that Bruce works in because it's an example, I think, of really maintaining the historic integrity of the character of the World War II effort down there. And so I just wanted to, I'm sure we'll, I'm hopeful we're going to see the same results here. |
| 02:10:10.34 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 02:10:10.37 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:10:10.54 | Bruce South | . |
| 02:10:19.42 | Thomas Theodores | Okay. Yeah, I'm just going to add a couple things. So, you know, I think as the city has learned not to just say no and be belligerent to a third party, you know, we've had much better relationships with a lot of governmental entities, whether it's the Bridge District, Ferry, you know, whatever else you want to name, where we, you know, the Park District, that's improved a lot from where it was 10 years ago. So we're not just, you know, whatever else you want to name where we, you know, the park district, that's improved a lot from where it was ten years ago. So we're not just, you know, trying to be a pain in the neck. We're saying, hey, we want to work with you. And we'll help, you know, as Adam said, we'll help try and solve this. |
| 02:10:22.03 | Bruce South | Yeah. |
| 02:10:39.84 | Unknown | There we go. |
| 02:11:01.18 | Thomas Theodores | problem rather than just say no and go away. But that being said, |
| 02:11:01.25 | Thomas Theodores | problem. |
| 02:11:10.28 | Thomas Theodores | I beg to disagree with someone that said tonight that this is an architecturally significant What is fortunate what's happened there over the years is that By losing other structures like this, The site as a whole has lost its integrity. you know, in terms of the Marin ship, losing it as just here is a historic site as a whole. When we went through this with our consultant, that if more of the buildings had been adequately maintained, and or rehab, like some were and some were not. The area as a whole could be a historic site and therefore eligible for a lot of federal money and grants and things that, because it's now individual properties, it's a lot less likely. And, you know, the blight, blame the federal government. If this is blight, blame yourselves because you should be calling your representatives of the federal government complaining. And it's ridiculous that our federal government is doing this. It's just crazy. It's like it's a property developer gone awry ourselves, you know, that I'll hold out, wait until it falls down, then I can do whatever I want. That makes no sense. And it's not, no one should be allowed to get away with it, particularly ourselves, with our money. It's ridiculous. So I think we need to hold a hand out. We owe us problem solvers to the VA. But at the same time, as you said, it's always somebody else who represents them, who goes back and tells us basically, you know, why are you here? You know, and that's, you know, you start all over again and it's hard to build that, it takes time to build that trust and then we do and then it's somebody else. |
| 02:12:48.57 | Unknown | You know, and that's... |
| 02:12:55.76 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah. |
| 02:12:55.80 | Ray Withy | What happens is they go back and they say something, and one says, well, I'll try it. And they send in another. you |
| 02:13:03.26 | Mary Wagner | you |
| 02:13:03.54 | Ray Withy | Thank you. But anyway. I'm Mr. Mayor. Yeah. |
| 02:13:04.00 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mr. Mayor, I just want to say one thing too with respect to the historic nature. It's true that we learned that some of the historic buildings have been, you know, obviously compromised to the extent that it's going to be hard for some areas to be historic district. However, What's interesting about this site is it faces, it's right across from that building that that Bruce is in, you know, the, 30, 30 or 3,000? |
| 02:13:38.68 | Ray Withy | 10, 20, 30. |
| 02:13:40.26 | Sandra Bushmaker | I can't remember. Tintin, which has that marineship. It maintained the integrity of that character. And so I really applaud city staff and the council for making this a priority. And I trust that the VA will keep hopefully moving in the right directions. |
| 02:14:00.82 | Ray Withy | Thank you. All right, thank you. All right, are we thinking there's no action? This is just information? you |
| 02:14:09.91 | Adam Politzer | Yeah, I would like the mayor to recognize the small committee, keep it as a small committee, and appoint Vice Mayor Leon to join Mike Kelly and Carolyn Connaught and Heidi. |
| 02:14:10.30 | Ray Withy | I would like it. |
| 02:14:23.97 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:14:24.53 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 02:14:24.58 | Mary Wagner | you |
| 02:14:24.59 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 02:14:24.71 | Ray Withy | I agree. All right. That's fine. You have to, so be it. |
| 02:14:24.74 | Adam Politzer | you |
| 02:14:33.45 | Thomas Theodores | Okay. I would like to ask that we, you as a council asked the subcommittee through Heidi to come back in a reasonable period of time saying here are five things that we want you or your help in doing. Okay. So before the end of the second quarter, come back and say hey, this is what we've done and this is where we need your help. |
| 02:14:46.53 | Bruce South | Okay. |
| 02:14:56.49 | Ray Withy | Okay. Direction. Okay. Thank you. Next item will be the status update on the standards for single-family residents in... I can't read it. Multifamily zoning districts. |
| 02:15:12.45 | Lily | the, the, Thank you, Mr. Mayor, council members. I have a Presentation for you tonight. This item is on the update of the standards for single-family residences and multifamily zoning districts. |
| 02:15:33.07 | Lily | There was a subcommittee of the Planning Commission that was formed in late 2010 to draft regulations that would limit the development potential for single-family homes in two-family and multi-family zoning districts in the city. As a part of the presentation staff gave on the housing element implementation programs, I believe it was last month, the council directed staff to update the council on the specific, the drafting of these regulations. So that's why we're here before you tonight. The contemplation of these standards has also been on the Council's priority calendar for the last three years. And this update tonight is just for information and no action is required of the Council. |
| 02:16:23.06 | Lily | So by way of backroom, there are six different residential zoning districts in the city. Single-family allows for single-family homes. Two-family allows for single-family and duplexes. Multi-family allows for single-family duplexes, apartments, and other multiple attached dwelling units. And we also have planned residential. and ARCS zoning districts, but we're going to be concentrating on the R1, R2, and R3 tonight. |
| 02:16:54.49 | Lily | The zoning ordinance also prescribes maximum allowances for building coverage, floor area, and impervious surfaces. And if I had adjusted the monitor, you would see in this display here that the first one is showing the building coverage is the footprint of the building on the parcel. So you have a parcel area, and there's a certain percentage of the parcel area that can be building footprint. The floor area is the living space inside the house, and so that's – when you take a look at the parcel area, there's a certain ratio that's allowed in terms of the – So a smaller ratio is less living area, a larger ratio is more living area. And impervious surfaces are, as defined by our ordinance, essentially anything that's not earth on the ground. So that includes all your building footprint, your decks, gravel areas. |
| 02:17:47.72 | Lily | Additionally, per the development standards table, single-family homes are allowed the same floor area building coverage and impervious surfaces as duplexes and apartments in the R2 and R3 zoning districts. means that a single family residence could be allowed through a design review permit to be built as large as a duplex or an apartment building in that same district. And this graphic visually illustrates how that can be done on the lot for an R3 zoning district. |
| 02:18:24.56 | Lily | The Planning Commission has raised concerns over the years with the construction of new single-family residences in these two-family and multi-family zoning districts being constructed out of character with the neighborhood, and they've also raised concern with the conversion of duplexes to single-family houses without any oversight. So to address these concerns, the Commission held public hearings in December of 2010, or two public hearings held to discuss draft regulations. And the conclusion of those hearings, the Planning Commission formed a subcommittee to look at the draft regulations further. And that subcommittee was composed of, is composed of Stan Baer and Joan Cox. We met seven times in 2011. And due to the housing element update work, the subcommittee stopped meeting mid-August of 2011 until that update was completed. We reconvened in February of this year And in light of the recently adopted housing element, the committee drafted, redrafted their purpose. And it's on the screen here in italics. So to draft regulations which would discourage the development of single family houses and multifamily parcels, large single family houses. And then also discourage the conversion of existing multifamily housing to single family housing. In addition, it would be to encourage the development of parcels appropriate to the full extent of the zoning district in which they are located. So the most recent draft regulations that the subcommittee is looking at call for modifications to the the development standards that would reduce the development potential for single family homes in two family and multi family zoning districts. And the current regulations would be based on a sliding scale depending on the parcel size in which the parcel size total. parcels under 3,000 square feet wouldn't be the regulations wouldn't apply to them, and then between certain parcel sizes the regulations change for that parcel size. And this is an example of the analysis that the subcommittee is currently going through to see exactly how those regulations would affect different parcel sizes. Additionally, the draft regulations also propose modifications to strengthen the existing design review findings. and call for incentives to construct multifamily projects. In addition, there's a submittal requirement to submit a schematic showing the potential location for additional units on the lot so that the developer of the lot is thinking in the future about where an additional lot could be located. |
| 02:21:19.15 | Lily | The subcommittee has directed staff at this time to provide some additional information. for their consideration, and this includes more information on the regulation's impact on specific neighborhoods, specifically Old Town and New Town. Additionally, they've asked us to look at how the recently adopted accessory dwelling regulations work with these draft regulations. The next subcommittee meeting is tentatively scheduled for March, late March of this month. And after the subcommittee has wrapped up its work, the recommended amendments would return to the Planning Commission for consideration and in turn after a review the Planning Commission could forward recommendation to the City Council, and the City Council could decide if that's an amendment that you would like to adopt. you At any point in this process, the draft regulations could also be referred to the Legislative Committee for further review or input. And that concludes our presentation tonight. Again, it's only for information, but we're available for any questions. |
| 02:22:21.13 | Ray Withy | I'm sorry. Any questions? |
| 02:22:23.29 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mr. Mayor, I have a couple of questions. And Lily, you may not know the answer because I don't know if they discussed this, you know, in detail. But I was just curious regarding item 4E, the tandem parking. Tandem parking will be permitted use without a CUP. Do you have any insights as to how the subcommittee came up with that issue? that decision. Thank you. |
| 02:23:02.01 | Lily | So they were thinking that parking is a restraining development factor, and they're trying to get the maximum number of units built on the parcel. So they were thinking of ways that they could and relax some of the regulations, this specifically being the requirement for a use permit to have tandem and just have that be by right provision if the maximum number of units are provided. |
| 02:23:24.88 | Sandra Bushmaker | And my other question has to do with item 1A. Why were parcels under 3,000 square feet exempt from this? zoning amendment. What was the rationale behind |
| 02:23:41.86 | Lily | Parcels under 3,000 square feet by our regulations can't support more than one unit. they have to have a minimum of 3,000 square feet. |
| 02:23:51.98 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:23:54.87 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 02:23:54.88 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 02:23:56.10 | Lily | Thank you. |
| 02:23:56.12 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:23:56.23 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 02:23:56.57 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. If you want anything. |
| 02:23:58.28 | Unknown | Thanks. |
| 02:23:58.97 | Thomas Theodores | Heidi, I'm sorry, I didn't want to. So, Heidi, sorry, Lily, Jesus. You guys look so similar. Like sisters. |
| 02:24:10.34 | Unknown | It's like sisters. |
| 02:24:15.42 | Thomas Theodores | there. |
| 02:24:15.71 | Unknown | hit. |
| 02:24:15.98 | Thomas Theodores | You know, slap me a few times, wake me up. |
| 02:24:16.33 | Unknown | So, |
| 02:24:16.38 | Ray Withy | if you're tired wake me up it was a long bus ride don't worry about it um |
| 02:24:18.34 | Thomas Theodores | So a couple sort of nitty things. It would be great. You did all the work in these tables, or somebody did, to get the lots in the right sizes. It would be great to know the smaller lot numbers because that just is a point of reference because we always, you know, I've never known this in the how many were each one, and this is great data to have because sometimes we make statements that aren't based on actual data. So it would be good to know even though they're exempt how many are in the R2 and a half, R3 and 2s that are 0 to 299, 2,999. Just as a point of reference because it was surprising to me in some of these categories where I thought they were more or less. It was kind of an education. What was the rationale for the subcommittee on the sliding scale concept versus just, hey, you're going to build a single family house. Why should it be any bigger here than over there? |
| 02:24:36.51 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 02:24:36.55 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:24:36.57 | Bruce South | you know, |
| 02:25:19.99 | Lily | I think, first of all, the parcel size. So with a 3,000-square-foot parcel, you're looking at, if you restrict that to the development standards for an R1 district, you and I don't know if I actually have the number in front of me. But it's a much smaller house. So they first did look at that. They did that analysis where they looked at just a blanket. What if we restrict all of these parcels to the same standard, R1-6? And I think there was an issue of fairness and a reasonable size of a house. And that's where they came up with this sliding scale. |
| 02:25:55.91 | Thomas Theodores | So sort of like once you, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm just trying to get my head around what the thinking was. Once... So rather than say, okay, here's what a, to avoid that problem rather than say, okay, you know, put some black line and sort of you could be somewhat exempt from this or have some sort of make-do. It just kind of just goes and different numbers are being used. Rather than just doing the percentages of the whole past a certain number, you're doing the percentage of the percentage of the whole all the way through. So, you know, I mean, and then we get the comment from the developer, this is so confusing, I'll never know how, you know, so you're going to get that. So that's one sort of piece of feedback for them. |
| 02:26:19.70 | Bruce South | I think. |
| 02:26:25.17 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:26:43.99 | Thomas Theodores | And you know this, and I'm still talking. Okay, I'll save that for my comments. And was there some discussion of new versus existing? So if you remodel and retain, versus if you tear something down, or was there a discussion of this? Because that's also part of the issue. I mean, part of the issue here is character, right? And in some of these neighborhoods, like Old Town, New Town, mass is accepted, right? Eight percent is pretty dense, right? But if you tore down an existing structure in order to get that entitlement for something else, for a single family, you know, you're, so what was the thinking of new and existing on that? |
| 02:27:29.62 | Lily | for in terms of nonconformity issues? |
| 02:27:32.18 | Thomas Theodores | No, like if you, it's one thing to say, okay, there's a structure there that you want to convert, you know, a structure from a multifamily to a single family that's built to the maximum of a R3. You know, which, okay, that's by default that's sort of up zoning or whatever it is yourself. But was there, so would that be treated the same as if you tore down and started fresh under these things? |
| 02:27:43.07 | Bruce South | Mm-hmm. |
| 02:27:56.87 | Lily | If you converted from, let's say, a duplex to a single family house, it would be treated the same. Because let's say that duplex is already, let's say it exceeds whatever is established as the line for a single family house in that district, let's say the duplex already exceeds that, someone wouldn't be able to convert it to a single family house unless a portion of it was removed to make that floor area balance out. |
| 02:28:00.01 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah. |
| 02:28:14.37 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:28:26.45 | Lily | Maybe I'm missing. |
| 02:28:27.28 | Thomas Theodores | No, no, no, I'm just trying to get my head around what you said. |
| 02:28:31.57 | Lily | That's the way that the subcommittee is discouraging or not allowing conversions is by establishing this lower threshold for single family houses and multi-family districts. If a duplex already exceeds that floor area, they can't convert it to a single family house because they would violate the zoning regulations. |
| 02:28:56.71 | Thomas Theodores | Okay, gotcha, gotcha. And as far as the housing element goes, Wasn't this one of the sort of implementation tools required under the housing element that we called out as a city saying, hey, we're going to do this? So what's the meat of what this is saying that applies to the housing element as far as the implementation of maintaining stock or encouraging affordable units or whatever |
| 02:29:24.22 | Lily | though |
| 02:29:30.27 | Lily | The subcommittee was looking to the encouraging multifamily housing part of the housing element. |
| 02:29:38.24 | Thomas Theodores | No, but I mean like... |
| 02:29:38.32 | Lily | So this is a separate – this whole update was included in the housing element as the city is going to look at these regulations and perhaps amend the zoning ordinance. The subcommittee is looking at the housing element's mandates regarding just providing more multifamily housing. That's where they're coming from. |
| 02:29:45.07 | Thomas Theodores | Right. |
| 02:29:59.89 | Thomas Theodores | No, I hear that. I'm just wondering, you know, we would adopt this as an ordinance, but there's some implementation stuff behind it that would sort of have to be... You'd have to sort of... In order to say to the state, hey, here's... We've done this and it accomplishes X, we sort of would have to have something in the wording here that is, how is it going to accomplish that? You know, not just by having a sliding scale. You know, how would it discourage conversion? How would it encourage multi-unit construction versus conversion into single family? |
| 02:30:32.75 | Lily | So by changing the development standards, so by saying single family houses can't be more than 45% of the lot area in a R2 or R3 zoning district. |
| 02:30:36.53 | Thomas Theodores | Right. |
| 02:30:37.01 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 02:30:42.57 | Lily | That would hopefully encourage people to build multi-unit buildings because they can maximize their development potential and also discourage folks from going the other way from a duplex to single-family house. |
| 02:30:56.10 | Thomas Theodores | And, you know, your staff's opinion is that's good enough, that's a strong enough statement to the state saying, hey, we are implementing these things to comply with what we said we |
| 02:31:08.10 | Lily | That specific item in the housing element, that's what we said we would do. Okay, great. |
| 02:31:12.35 | Sandra Bushmaker | And in the housing element, however, didn't it always also mention kind of promoting family housing? So would it be, and did I just hear you say that downscoping the size of, like someone could build a single family home in a multi-unit lot, but they wouldn't be able to build the McMansion. It'd have to be a smaller. So wouldn't that smaller home, you know, possibly, you know, speak to more affordability potentially? Potentially. Okay, thank you. |
| 02:31:54.47 | Unknown | I think. All right. |
| 02:31:56.06 | Thomas Theodores | One last question. So in this table, it's kind of somewhat, in my personal opinion, To me, the 80%, the heightened review thing has come to mean very little as part of the Planning Commission's review of things over the last, since I left. But the other thing is, because it's completely disregarded as like a real hammer tool. So having that as one of the items in the table, because you have the 80% thing in there sort of as an entitlement break, am I reading it wrong? |
| 02:32:13.22 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 02:32:18.05 | Mary Wagner | Yeah. Yeah. |
| 02:32:32.42 | Thomas Theodores | There's maximums and there's 80, so help me out where I'm going. |
| 02:32:36.15 | Lily | So the reason why we included the without heightened and the with heightened design review under the current regulations is to give the subcommittee an idea of what those regulations mean for different lot sizes so they could use that to compare their proposed changes too. At one point they were considering just making single family houses conform with just the heightened, the 80% of the 80% rule. Right. |
| 02:32:40.59 | Thomas Theodores | Right. |
| 02:33:03.47 | Mary Wagner | Right. Thank you. |
| 02:33:04.13 | Lily | And so they wanted this information in the table. Additionally, there's a certain parcel size category in here, and I don't remember which one it is, but that regulation is based on that 80% of the 80% rule as well. So they wanted that information in there to see what the current regulations say. |
| 02:33:25.43 | Thomas Theodores | Right, so in the first table, I don't know what, it's the R2, 2, 2 1⁄2, R2, 2 1⁄2, zoning district one, where it has with the site height and review without. So it's sort of saying, this is where it was confusing to me because it's saying your max, Your height and review has a Okay, now I understand what you're saying. This is kind of not presenting the full picture to, like, someone else. It would to this committee because they're used to seeing it because it really, and correct me, well, don't correct me because it's a crazy statement and you shouldn't go against the Planning Commission in your rules. But, you know, I don't think this belongs in here because unless it's going to be used as something in this stuff, you should just have the max min, and here's the stuff we're proposing to sort of counteract that because it's really deceiving to see the max and with height and review as the max, you know, because it really isn't the max and that won't be what people come in proposing. You know what I mean? Does that make any sense? Okay, I won't ask you that question. That's what I'm trying to say. No, Sylvia makes no sense. I don't want to hear it right now. |
| 02:34:37.72 | Thomas Theodores | No, she'll tell me to make no sense. |
| 02:34:40.42 | Lily | Thank you. |
| 02:34:40.54 | Thomas Theodores | you're in right now. |
| 02:34:41.23 | Lily | No, I think I understand. I think I understand. And we're using this right now just as the analysis tool for the subcommittee to go through their iterations. I understand that this table is confusing. I recognize that. |
| 02:34:41.97 | Thomas Theodores | I think I can get it. |
| 02:34:50.31 | Thomas Theodores | for the subcommittee to go through their iterations. No, it's confusing. It took me a while to get, you know, but then once I decided, well, this is somewhat deceptive because nobody's coming in. I mean, with stuff at the heightened review. Nobody really regards it. Maybe they do at the counter in early discussions, but I, you know, |
| 02:35:03.57 | Lily | Thank you. |
| 02:35:11.42 | Thomas Theodores | not like it used to be, you know, where people were threatened by it, but that, oh, you're going to have to do all this other stuff so nobody cares anymore. So anyway. |
| 02:35:21.46 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Okay, Lilly, you're off the hook on that one. All right, any other questions, comments, any public comment? |
| 02:35:23.77 | Thomas Theodores | THE END OF THE END OF THE I've got that one. |
| 02:35:25.97 | Sandra Bushmaker | you |
| 02:35:26.15 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah. |
| 02:35:31.72 | Ray Withy | Comment. Go ahead. |
| 02:35:33.90 | Sandra Bushmaker | I do have a comment, Mr. Mayor. So I just want to say that I support the move towards providing a smaller scale of a single family home on a multi-unit lot because of the, we were getting a lot of McMansions. But I am less enthusiastic about the actively preventing people who have, and full disclosure, I have a duplex, I'm in a multi-unit lot and I love my duplex and I would not change that. But speaking to Saucido as a whole, I personally would question something that clamped down on allowing people the ability to build a small, you know, single family home on a multi-unit lot. And I'm very concerned about the tandem parking caveat because with tandem parking, people will grab the street slots before juggling with the cars. And I'm also... There was one more point I forgot. Anyway, I'll just wait for the final product from the subcommittee. |
| 02:36:52.74 | Ray Withy | Okay. Thank you. All right. Lily, thank you. There's no action on this. |
| 02:36:57.83 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah, I would agree. So I just want to give it, you know, because it wasn't a question. Some history here. So the history, at least through the last real estate boom here, was smart people. I don't say that I would have liked them, but they were smart people. They went through the city's inventory of zoning, and they found these lots. These are three lots that some of them had multi-lots, already had were split, you know, long ago, and they bought them. And they split them, and they got rid of the multi-unit housing. And there was a lot of that. Some of them already were houses built on lots, across lots, tore it down, built, you know, single-family homes. The economics haven't been there for this in the last few years, but they will be again. And so this is what I found on the Planning Commission at times. You really had no control of it. You had very little control to say, hey, just because you can't tear down this, or it's not in the city ordinance area, so I can't tell you what to do, that you get bigger entitlements because you bought a house and can build a single-family home in a multi-unit lot. You're on a multi-unit lot, you're on a multi-unit lot, I'm on a multi-unit lot. We all have multiple units, right? So the The question here is, again, about character of Sausalito and about the housing elements, housing stock. Right? Because you, this is the easiest way to make money as a developer is buy a multifamily house in an R3 that has an 80% maximum and tear it down and put a single family home there. And that's having, that's going on next door to all of us. |
| 02:38:25.58 | Bruce South | House. |
| 02:38:34.07 | Bruce South | Oh, yeah. |
| 02:38:38.69 | Thomas Theodores | Now the housing market's coming back. You're going to see a rush for this stuff again, especially the ones that still have lot splits sitting underneath them. So this is, to me, this was like a mistake. when this was put together many years ago. Um, that the zoning tables, that it just didn't prohibit you from doing that, because it doesn't make any logical sense. So, Why should you be rewarded for doing that. For buying, especially they're mostly in smaller lot areas. Um, and creating a single family home that's much larger than it would be entitled if it was across the street. Um, It makes very little sense. I don't know where the magic line is for like here's a 2,000 or 3,000 square foot home is where the, you know, anything below that you don't, you know, not the lot size but what you could build on it because you can't foresee, every lot's different as you guys know, so you can't foresee, you know, rather than having a sliding scale, but, you know, there's way too many breaks in this table. It's incredibly confusing. You're going to get people throwing that, you know, what difference between 500 square feet between one lot size and the other. way too many breaks in this table. It's incredibly confusing. You're going to get people throwing that, you know, difference between 500 square feet between one lot size and the next. it will create a meaningful amount of confusion, I would imagine. So to have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven categories, you know, is a little much, especially considering the number of lots once you get into the larger size homes or lots. So that's my question. |
| 02:40:11.86 | Sandra Bushmaker | Mr. Mayor, I just have a quick comment. I remember my third point. Okay. So my third point was, again, I don't like the McMansions. I don't like someone buying a multi-unit lot and then building a big McMansion. That's got to stop. But to prevent someone who has a multi-unit lot from having a smaller, you know, single family home |
| 02:40:15.59 | Thomas Theodores | . |
| 02:40:15.62 | Thomas Theodores | Okay. |
| 02:40:37.38 | Sandra Bushmaker | I think is something that we should find a way to allow. I think that when we complied with California state mandates for second units per administrative review, that we've increased density already in single family zones. And so I think that a turnabout on that, in my mind, is to also permit smaller sized single family homes in multi-unit zones, you know, with if it meets certain standards. So I just want that was my third point. |
| 02:41:14.87 | Thomas Theodores | come. |
| 02:41:16.33 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Okay, since it's informational, thank you very much, Lily. No, you can go home. |
| 02:41:23.46 | Thomas Theodores | No, she's here for the next one. |
| 02:41:25.54 | Ray Withy | Oh, the next. Could I have a break? Let's do this one because I get a feeling this is going to be very quick. |
| 02:41:25.56 | Thomas Theodores | No. |
| 02:41:27.44 | Sandra Bushmaker | Could I have a break? Thank you. Let's go. What's the next one? |
| 02:41:33.39 | Ray Withy | The request for waiver of fees regarding Harmonia appeal Hmm. |
| 02:41:38.78 | Lily | Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. This is my last item tonight. On October 15th, there was an appeal filed by Harmonia of a Planning Commission decision to deny their conditional use permit. The City Council held a hearing on that appeal on February 6th of this year. and upheld the appeal Harmonia, Jennifer Adler of Harmonia, has subsequently requested a refund of the appeal fees paid, which were $3,100. $30.40 pursuant to Municipal Code Section 109050, which allows the council to waive fees. The approval of a fee waiver would be a negative impact on the Planning Commission's resources, which included staff time to prepare the staff report, be at the meetings, prepare the presentation, and send out the notices. staff recommends that the council review Harmonia's request, and if the waiver is approved, authorize the city manager to issue a refund in the amount of $3,130.40 to Harmonia. |
| 02:42:44.63 | Ray Withy | Okay, thank you. We have any questions on that? Any questions from the public? Well, come up here. |
| 02:42:54.23 | Thomas Theodores | . |
| 02:42:57.62 | Ray Withy | You're not a stranger. |
| 02:42:59.25 | Alice Merrill | Did she just say that the staff recommends that they get the money back? |
| 02:43:05.45 | Ray Withy | No. No. |
| 02:43:06.38 | Alice Merrill | I'm very glad about that. |
| 02:43:07.87 | Ray Withy | Yeah, okay. No public comment anymore? All right, let's bring it back up. It's easy one for me, real comment. My comment is that, you know, |
| 02:43:21.54 | Unknown | So. |
| 02:43:21.72 | Thomas Theodores | Look at GIF for us in the mountains. |
| 02:43:21.76 | Unknown | The plant, the plant, |
| 02:43:22.89 | Ray Withy | Well, the Planning Commission did their job. We as a council had the, we changed it, but there was nothing that the Planning Commission really did that warrants that we return the waiver of fees. So I'd like to move it this time that this request be denied. Any other comments? |
| 02:43:47.76 | Unknown | Yeah, real quick. |
| 02:43:49.52 | Ray Withy | to the community. |
| 02:43:49.58 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah, a quick comment is I'd still be curious if they're going to have to come in for additional approvals for the events that they're holding. Like if you're going to hold Chris at 333 for that standard, you're going to have to hold them to that standard. If they're a school but they're having paid events, then they have to have special event permits or come back with a permit to be an entertainment place or whatever the right classification of that. But with that, I'll second Herb's amendment and we should hold everybody to the same standard and there's no way that that's different standards. |
| 02:43:49.60 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 02:44:16.94 | Ray Withy | He's old. |
| 02:44:20.55 | Ray Withy | Thank you. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Opposed? Lily, you now can go home. Thank you. Thank you very much. |
| 02:44:22.83 | Thomas Theodores | Bye. |
| 02:44:28.57 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you very much. Two-minute break. |
| 02:44:30.44 | Ray Withy | Okay. |
| 02:44:30.96 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yeah. |
| 02:44:31.18 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Two minutes. |
| 02:44:31.48 | Sandra Bushmaker | Two minutes. |
| 02:44:33.78 | Ray Withy | One minute and 45 seconds now. Great map for Sausalito. Jonathan Goldman, your time has come. |
| 02:44:40.61 | Jonathon Goldman | The time has come. Mr. Mayor, Mr. Vice Mayor, members of the council, I appreciate the vice mayor's authorization for public works to purchase the council. I wasn't expecting that this evening. |
| 02:44:50.82 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 02:44:50.91 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 02:44:51.01 | Thomas Theodores | I wasn't expecting You can flip the corporation yard to multi-unit housing. from across the street in the industrial area. |
| 02:45:00.86 | Jonathon Goldman | And then we could call it Marine Shop Number 2. I'm not going to take that bait. This item was continued from our previous meeting probably because the previous meeting was late and you all took advantage of the opportunity to read ahead and said that's way too much information and we're going to need more time to digest it. |
| 02:45:02.20 | Ray Withy | And then we could call it Marine Shop Number Two. |
| 02:45:28.08 | Jonathon Goldman | My intent was not to be confrontational, Mr. Mayor, I assure you. What I'm trying to do is largely just duplicating information that FEMA relatively recently provided to public works staff from the city of Sausalito as well as from other jurisdictions in the city and the county and some other representatives of policymakers, staff for supervisors, for example. And it isn't, I mean, there's a lot of detail here. The purpose tonight isn't to immerse you in detail, no pun intended, but just to let you know what's going on and that in many respects, contrary to the impression that I always had of FEMA, due to some mandates from Congress, and I have the dates in the PowerPoint, so when I get there, I'll be able to tell you what they were again. There's a pretty significant effort on FEMA's part to modernize the flood insurance rate maps and the flood insurance studies. And as the department that's responsible for administering the floodplain in the city of Sausalito, you know, it's our job to try to stay to stay informed and help you as policymakers, as you saw I think in October of last year, help you as policymakers understand what the issues are so that you can set policy going forward that not only addresses what FEMA historically did, which was recurring flood losses, which I've always described as driving while looking in the rearview mirror, but also address anticipated changes in the future and trying to avoid flood losses before they have to recur, if you will. So I did not print copies of the PowerPoint. They're available on the website, although I tried to download it on the iPad while I was in the audience earlier, and I finally gave up because I think there's a lot of information. If anybody sees something here that they would like to get a copy of, they're welcome to get a hold of me and I'll make sure they get it. I did make copies of, there are some resource materials, websites and stuff that are on one of the later slides and I printed these for Vicki. |
| 02:48:15.26 | Jonathon Goldman | All right, with no further ado, I'll just try and fly through this a little bit. Feel free to interrupt me if you have questions on topic during the presentation. October 2012. |
| 02:48:32.61 | Jonathon Goldman | I alluded to the fact that we brought a couple of alternative modifications to our flood damage prevention ordinance to Council in October of 2012. direction to staff was We really need to reach out to some of the stakeholders, the property owners who would be affected by either of the alternative kind of policy approaches. We haven't done that yet, but I'm just reminding you that that's on our list to do. And then there's some background information here about For those of you who don't know, The reason that there is a flood damage prevention ordinance is that A fairly long time ago, the federal government decided that they were sick and tired of spending taxpayers' money to bail out places where there are repetitive flood losses, so created a program where It's an insurance program, and it is intended to be sustainable, economically sustainable, and fund itself so that the people who purchase flood insurance, the premiums that they pay, matches the cost of administering the program as well as the cost of paying out when there are losses. As a condition for a community's access to that program, the community has to agree to enact certain restrictions on building construction and substantial remodel that are intended to prevent flood damage. |
| 02:50:13.00 | Jonathon Goldman | I also mentioned there's the date, 2004, Congress mandated a map modification program to try to bring |
| 02:50:14.05 | Bruce South | Okay. Thank you. |
| 02:50:14.27 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:50:14.28 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 02:50:22.97 | Jonathon Goldman | the process of bringing better science, bringing more accurate topographic information, other information into the process of developing the flood insurance rate maps, which helps the program run more efficiently. A couple of examples from my experience. The flood insurance rate maps in St. Helena when I worked there were based on topographic surveys from USGS topo maps in the 1970s. And with more accurate information and the history of recurring flood losses there from the Napa River, there's the opportunity to just do a better job of recognizing where there is hazard and regulate to prevent flood damage or if it isn't possible to prevent it, at least make property owners aware that there's risk and give them the opportunity to buy insurance to cover their losses. Again, this is largely a presentation that we saw in January. Let's see. There are two pertinent pieces with respect to Sausalito. The most directly pertinent has to do with San Francisco Bay Area coastal study, which will directly affect us. There are other studies that are ongoing, including two areas of riverine studies, the Ross Valley and areas of Mill Valley, that are a little bit different and are further along in the process. Both of them got discussed at this presentation. |
| 02:52:16.59 | Jonathon Goldman | Background information, why there's flood insurance, I told you some of that. I'm tempted to go adjust the brightness myself. |
| 02:52:28.62 | Jonathon Goldman | The objective of the coastal zone update, provide updated flood hazard data for 100% of the populated United States coast. And we're actually in a very early stage compared to other regions in the country. |
| 02:52:48.40 | Jonathon Goldman | Um... |
| 02:52:53.72 | Jonathon Goldman | to see if I can make it more viewable. The audience at home won't know what's going on. |
| 02:53:04.01 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 02:53:04.03 | Ray Withy | You need time for a commercial? |
| 02:53:05.99 | Jonathon Goldman | Oops. Thank you. |
| 02:53:16.38 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. get it to adjust itself. |
| 02:53:32.24 | Jonathon Goldman | Somebody turned the brightness way up, that's what was going on. I think having story time in this room may be a problem. |
| 02:53:37.10 | Ray Withy | Some of them wasn't too. |
| 02:53:38.98 | Thomas Theodores | All right. |
| 02:53:42.44 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. Hopefully that's better for somebody. This just illustrates the different study areas and the different contractors that FEMA has used to do the coastal studies. These companies are primarily hydraulic modeling and also some not just simple hydraulics, but also wind wave run up and things like that. So pretty sophisticated companies that certainly do a lot of work for FEMA. I don't know who else they work for. |
| 02:54:20.35 | Jonathon Goldman | the objectives again. And this is a little bit, this is a departure from the norm, the situation that I described in St. Helena. |
| 02:54:21.18 | Mary Wagner | . |
| 02:54:33.40 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. uh There's a parallel here in similarity to some extent. I don't know that the work was as old, but the existing flood insurance rate maps for |
| 02:54:36.13 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 02:54:36.17 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 02:54:46.21 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. relatively simplistically based. They're based on tidal data and there is a fixed surcharge that's applied for wave run up. It doesn't take into account the more sophisticated statistics having to do with winds and tides in the area. It also doesn't take into account, not that we have gruberine flooding to speak of in Sausalito, but doesn't take into account some of the interactions between water coming down creeks and the bays the way the other studies do. |
| 02:54:46.88 | Mary Wagner | you |
| 02:55:12.95 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 02:55:31.18 | Jonathon Goldman | High-level schedule, we're in here somewhere. Preliminary flood insurance rate maps are scheduled to come out for this area over the next year. There is a lot of opportunity for both technical comment as well as the obligation, I guess, for community outreach and involvement because to the extent that the base flood elevations change, to the extent of the floodplain, the area special flood hazard changes, it's going to affect people's ability to improve or sell their property. And it's important that people understand that |
| 02:55:49.13 | Unknown | We'll be right back. |
| 02:56:23.74 | Jonathon Goldman | that's actually a benefit in that it's providing Um... factual information and providing an opportunity for them to better protect their property and for their successors and title to be protected, but sometimes it comes off as a you know, oh my god, FEMA has diminished the value of my property and I'm going to have to sue everyone. |
| 02:56:49.50 | Jonathon Goldman | So, again, there is a preliminary flood insurance rate map issued. There's a lot of community involvement in what they call post-preliminary processing, and it's not until... early 2015 and into 2016 that the final maps become effective, and that's pretty much strictly FEMA's decision. Once they make them effective, we're responsible for regulating based on those maps. |
| 02:57:25.91 | Jonathon Goldman | This is going too slowly. |
| 02:57:32.05 | Jonathon Goldman | one of the things that is just... geeky, but the data set that FEMA and its consultants put together in order to do this work in the Bay is a public domain data set. It's very statistically significant, I guess, validated and is of potential value, is certainly of huge value for this project, but is also available for people. In fact, one of the things I'm already looking at is both the Cass Marina, the Cass Gidley development, the Dunphy Park Beach, the opportunity to use this dataset to try to make meaningful shoreline restoration that doesn't, for example, wash away the next winter or things like that. So some very valuable information. Using contemporary high resolution, this is topographic information developed in 2010. by NOAA, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and US Geological Survey, taking into account the undersea, the underwater topography, which is gonna affect the characteristics of wave action and things like that. wind speed information. So again, statistical derivations of what expected 100-year recurrence, which is normally the statistical level that the base flood elevations are derived from, come up with 1% probability of exceeding wind speeds and directions and factor all of that into the development of these maps. So they're taking into account the swell coming in tidally, long period of waves originating from Pacific Ocean storms that entered the bay through the Golden Gate. Seas, which are local wind-generated waves. In this case they're showing wind coming from the northeast. And then also surge from tidal water levels. Pretty colors. one-dimensional modeling terminology Ask questions if you have them. Special considerations. Just again as a reminder of where we came from, the existing flood maps are tide plus two feet for waves. This is taking much more detailed two-dimensional information into account and then you'll see in a few minutes that In addition to that kind of base information, the modeling effort, and here we are in Sausalito, includes transects that allow them to take these shoreline characteristics into account, the direction of the shoreline compared to the direction the water would be moving, wave dynamics, and land use and And then using that information figure out really what we're driving at is the area special flood hazard is a foot or more of inundation. The advantage that this work gives us is that we'll also know more about the inland area that's maybe less than a foot, but nine inches of water in my house is still pretty significant, and I'd kind of like to know that that's going to happen. |
| 03:01:34.30 | Thomas Theodores | SPEAKER 1, on that prior map when I was reading this, what did the numbers indicate? Not that one, the next one. Do we remember? |
| 03:01:44.79 | Jonathon Goldman | I believe that those are transect numbers, but I'm not sure. |
| 03:01:45.91 | Thomas Theodores | alert. |
| 03:01:51.96 | Jonathon Goldman | THE FAMILY. or lottery numbers. Here we go. Those are elevations. I think they're transect numbers. For those of you who don't readily recognize it, as I recall, this is Puerto Madera. And it was surprising to me and to large numbers of people in the audience how much of the malls and how much of that area of the county is already within the 100 year floodplain. And these transects and this information helps the regulators, the municipalities, as well as the property owners anticipate what the characteristics of flooding and ideally find ways to construct, make improvements that reduce their property damage costs. |
| 03:02:14.47 | John Cox | Thank you. Yeah. |
| 03:02:29.12 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:02:40.02 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:03:00.56 | Jonathon Goldman | This is all kind of boring, but there are actually two different, there will be, I think we have V zones now, which are higher velocity. zones in a coastal area as well as the A Zone, which is the more conventional 100-year floodplain. So in this case, they're on this transect, and I don't know if it's Paradise Drive, So that's Tiburon Peninsula maybe or Um... that neighborhood, but they're able to delineate the difference between the places where in a V zone there are certain construction standards that apply because the structure has to be able to withstand much higher velocity, you know, current, rapidly moving in and out water, And then on the AE zone side, it's stiller water, less likely to cause the same kind of damage that high-velocity flows would. |
| 03:03:58.20 | Bruce South | you know, |
| 03:04:09.22 | Mary Wagner | you |
| 03:04:11.35 | Jonathon Goldman | Just more. |
| 03:04:15.37 | Jonathon Goldman | information here. This is kind of an aside, but one of the advantages to their process right now is that we will get access to their online map review tool. It's going to allow us to look at us, the city engineer, the community development director, myself, access to the draft maps and try and identify any issues that we see. If we're aware of topography that they haven't taken into account or something else, it gives us an easy opportunity to post comments and allows them to efficiently deal with them. The other thing it's going to let us do is, again, provide you with information about what we see coming. relatively quickly. |
| 03:05:19.83 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 03:05:20.03 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:05:20.54 | Jonathon Goldman | All right. |
| 03:05:20.98 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:05:20.99 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 03:05:27.95 | Thomas Theodores | Um... |
| 03:05:28.59 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 03:05:34.49 | Jonathon Goldman | One of the important things that, or the messages that they wanted us to have, |
| 03:05:45.11 | Jonathon Goldman | We all, and I include you, we need to understand that our communities, even Sausalito, even in the marinship, are at risk for flooding. Well... A lot of times the public, the property owners, the tenants, our visitors don't really have any idea that that's the case. The other important piece of that is that there's insurance available, the private market would not issue at least not at these premiums, because the private market probably doesn't see it as being sufficiently profitable. So having federally backed flood insurance is a huge benefit. The FEMA's concern or expectation is that the public expects to hear about risks from local chief executive officers, but that we aren't necessarily providing much information and that the public prefers to hear about flood risks through local media mailings and meetings while we prefer to use websites and newspaper ads. |
| 03:07:03.64 | Jonathon Goldman | All right. |
| 03:07:14.04 | Jonathon Goldman | Another important attribute, I think, of the effort that they're making is that all kinds of large volumes of detailed, accurate information is available, even work in progress on FEMA's website. R9 Coastal, this is FEMA Region 9, it's also EPA Region 9, and I don't know what other Region 9 we are, but www.r9coastal.org has all of this information, a lot of fact sheets and things like that, probably all of which I duplicated in the packet. I think FEMA's come a long way since, certainly since the 70s. |
| 03:08:05.96 | Thomas Theodores | since it's horse racing days, not so long ago. |
| 03:08:11.03 | Jonathon Goldman | Yeah. Thank you. I don't know. This broad area is important to us. One of the, and it actually bears on some of what was discussed earlier with respect to the marineship, in order to be eligible for hazard mitigation grant funding from the federal government, there are certain criteria that we have to comply with. And we aren't quite there yet in some of those areas, but as we spend more time looking at what the risks to our community are from flooding. And one thing that I didn't mention in Um... in the work that I presented that FEMA's doing, but I have regularly mentioned to FEMA, is in the Marin ship, for reasons that were also discussed earlier this evening, we have land subsiding in some cases, and we don't have an accurate forecast of the rate that it will continue to subside at, but in some cases the land is probably subsiding faster than sea level is rising. And if your elevation is going down I want to go. |
| 03:09:29.46 | Thomas Theodores | I want to buy that lot. And you want to buy that. |
| 03:09:30.34 | Jonathon Goldman | and you weren't in the floodplain yesterday, you can certainly expect that you will be at some point in the future. And if you are contemplating making a significant investment, |
| 03:09:30.96 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:09:30.98 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 03:09:35.55 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 03:09:35.59 | Mary Wagner | in the |
| 03:09:40.58 | Mary Wagner | No. |
| 03:09:40.97 | Thomas Theodores | It's a significant investment. |
| 03:09:43.52 | Jonathon Goldman | The post office is in the morale check. |
| 03:09:46.84 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:09:46.94 | Jonathon Goldman | . So if you're contemplating a significant investment, taking into account the fact that if you're going to invest millions of dollars on... something on a piece of property and improvements on the property and your expected life cycle for that investment is 20, 30, 50 years, taking these issues into account and making sure that Not that it's flood proof, because in many ways that implied warranty can't ever be realized, but at least that you have taken advantage of the opportunity to try to protect those improvements from from flooding is well worth doing. and as a community, to the extent that we can quantify Um, risks. in terms of benefit cost analysis and qualify potentially for hazard mitigation grants, there's an opportunity for infrastructure and lots of other things potentially to be protected and conceivably completely reconstructed, which is what needs to happen to it in the first place, but reconstructed in a way that it is much less susceptible to these risks. |
| 03:11:11.28 | Jonathon Goldman | All right. Well, you have all this information, and I apologize for not boiling it down any further, but I thought it was worth at least providing it. These are the handouts I alluded to, and I'm happy to try to answer questions Anyone has any? I know there are a bunch of people waiting to speak. |
| 03:11:40.21 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. you Thank you. |
| 03:11:42.40 | Thomas Theodores | Jonathan, just that one chart where you don't have a plan for something, does that put any property owners or the city at any disadvantage as far as flood insurance or grant funding or whatever if we don't have some – that, you know, is there any sort of penalty for |
| 03:12:02.13 | Jonathon Goldman | Not with respect to a property owner and insurance. And there's not really a penalty. It's an opportunity lost. And the police chief and Sergeant Frost and I have already talked about |
| 03:12:13.57 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 03:12:13.59 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:12:13.98 | Bruce South | already |
| 03:12:15.93 | Jonathon Goldman | Um, two things. We had the benefit in Marin County of having a pretty comprehensive Office of Emergency Services and the opportunity Um, to not have to do what I think communities have historically done, which is devote a whole bunch of resources towards developing their own hazard mitigation plan and making sure that FEMA thinks it's okay and it doesn't necessarily match the neighbors. But doesn't the county not have their own? |
| 03:12:51.44 | Thomas Theodores | at least from that graph, that table. |
| 03:12:55.42 | Jonathon Goldman | They may not. According to FEMA, they don't. But between with the resources that we have here, the county resources and the resources of other jurisdictions in the county, it should not be difficult for us to have consistent, coherent, and consistent, consistent, consistent, |
| 03:12:57.65 | Thomas Theodores | According to FEMA, they don't. All right. Bye. So, |
| 03:13:14.74 | Jonathon Goldman | ideally shared that FEMA says, Yes, we like the fact that you're all together and that you talk to one another and that you are planning for these hazards. So that's our objective. And of course, that's easy to say and sometimes harder to do than doing it ourselves, but that's the objective. |
| 03:13:40.34 | Ray Withy | Okay, questions? |
| 03:13:41.30 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 03:13:41.44 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:13:42.64 | Unknown | Is there anything you would |
| 03:13:45.42 | Ray Withy | Would you like a glass of water? |
| 03:13:46.05 | Unknown | Would you like it? |
| 03:13:46.75 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 03:13:46.91 | Unknown | Yeah. water. Thank you. |
| 03:13:47.99 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:13:48.00 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:13:48.04 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 03:13:48.05 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:13:48.36 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 03:13:48.46 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:13:48.49 | Jonathon Goldman | Bye. Thank you. No, the objective was to make sure that you knew that this was going on and |
| 03:13:50.03 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:13:50.06 | Ray Withy | No, I... |
| 03:13:55.21 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:13:55.23 | Mary Wagner | was |
| 03:13:58.62 | Jonathon Goldman | It's not, I mean, obviously, it's not simple, but in some respects it is simple. And the challenge for us is, ties back to what we did in October, is to make sure that you understand the issues and that between us, we're letting property owners and other affected parties, potentially benefiting parties, know what's going on and make sure that there's a healthy dialogue ideally consensus in the community on what level of risk we're willing to tolerate and what we can do to protect against those risks. So what came last year was, a more proactive alternative, more than just the minimum, where |
| 03:14:58.03 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 03:14:59.42 | Jonathon Goldman | in areas outside the regulatory floodplain, outside the 100-year floodplain, we still would recommend that property owners be required to establish the elevations of their property as a condition of construction so that they know what their finished floor elevation is. And ideally, taking into account the fact that there can still be up to a foot of water, even based on these projections, outside the 100-year floodplain, make their improvements so that their finished floors are elevated to provide adequate protection against that less than one foot of water. |
| 03:15:40.19 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Any other questions? Any, at this time here, any questions from the public? Okay, bring it back here. Any comments? Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you very much. Okay, let's move on to the next item, which is the review and discuss council policy on paperless agenda packets and the use of iPads. Debbie. You are there. without my rope. |
| 03:16:14.93 | Unknown | Thank you, Mayor and Councilmembers. This is, we're providing you the opportunity here to kind of discuss amongst yourselves on the policy for providing you with paper lists Council Packets. And what I am going to do is just kind of give you some real quick history here. BACK IN A year ago, exactly one year ago, February. we presented this to you. and gave each and every one of you an iPad. At that time the conversation came up. some concerns. We told you how you could enter notes into your agenda item, and there was concern about where do these notes go to. and we were able to get back to Granicas, they explained They reside simply right here on your hardware. and they don't go anywhere else. So the notes are yours and nobody else can see them. Um, So probably for about the next six months, we provided you with paperless packets. During that time, I was also on the learning curve. I was trying to figure out the best way to provide these electronic packets. And since that time, I think we've gotten it down pretty good. You know, you see now the staff reports, depending on how the staff report is written, the Attachments are separated out exactly the way they are in the staff report. So every single one of your of. Items. exactly reflects what you see on the staff report. In addition, it took some time, but we learned there was rotation issues, forgetting that turn your iPad and it just kind of floats around so We got that down, Pat. So I am taking this opportunity right now because when we gave you these iPads, we gave you no instructions. pretty much learn. Also at that time, Granicus had no annotation. Thank you. tools. And- you as a member who wanted to annotate or to write notes or whatever needed to go out and purchase your own apps. Since that time, Granicus has made a lot of changes. As a matter of fact, they made changes during the summer and within the last couple of months that have really changed things. And I want you to see that. before I let you get into your own internal discussion. about where this policy falls. So if you look up there, I'm going to start you right from scratch. And as all of you know, DEALING WITH A LITTLE ELONGATION HERE. Um, When you open up your iPad, you get your screen, and so your iLegislate is where you go. and your I legislate, when you open this up, it automatically grabs the newest. agenda. So you don't even have to do anything at this point. It just automatically starts to populate. Okay, I'm going to actually go into last week's agenda because I've been writing notes in this one. So here you are. You've got your agenda. And oh, I need Well, maybe I can do this. |
| 03:19:53.70 | Bruce South | Um, |
| 03:19:55.25 | Unknown | When you open this up, |
| 03:20:02.02 | Unknown | You will, there's a little, It's a little inbox down in the bottom. Right hand corner. You don't see it on mine because I've done my job already. No, it's not on mine. So in the lower right-hand corner, and yes, I would love that. There would be a little in-bite. And this is something I forgot to tell the new council members, But if you hit that box. it downloads the agenda to your iPad. So it becomes a part of your hardware. And when you do that, that definitely ensures your notes Um, Stay there. and when you open it up the next time, your note is still there sometimes. If you have not downloaded it, Sometimes they are there and sometimes they are not there. We've had that issue. Okay. Now, if you look up you will see all of the little paper clips. And all these little paper clips means that there's something attached to that agenda item. So you're, and I'm going to, I'm going to walk you through just like you're opening this up for the first time. So here you are. You've just opened it up. And you start down. And the first thing you're going to read is, oh, look at the minutes. So you open up your minutes. |
| 03:21:26.26 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:21:28.71 | Unknown | and you open up your minutes, Um, And you can't read that note yet. We're going to open the minutes. Oh, goodness. We have some annotations finally. And I'm actually going to close this for a second. So you've read, you're reading down, And you look at this roll call and you go, wait, something's wrong with this roll call. But, I'm gonna come back to it. But you have to remember that you want to come back to that. So what you're going to do is you're going to bookmark that little puppy. Now, it doesn't mean that this is what you all are going to do, but this is how I realized this is the way it's going to work. Real sweet. So down on the bottom. You see all these little guys, the highlight, underline, draw, note, bookmark. So if you hit your bookmark button, It comes up, and we're gonna just, I'll bookmark up here we're going to bookmark. And I just hit the bookmark. And I get to hit anywhere on the page, and up comes what I need to make a comment about, and we're going to say closed session just because there could be a problem in that. |
| 03:22:45.89 | Unknown | Could be a problem. And it's done. There you go. And you read through all your, now you've made your bookmarks. And you come back. Close this little guy. So when you hit the bookmark button, I'm sorry I'm doing this without pointing, now we've entered, we've read and we've entered all our marks that we need to. So now you're going to look up here at the bookmarks button up there. When you open that up, There they are. Roll call had a problem. It jumped right to the roll call session. So there it is. And I. I remember when I was reading it, I remembered that there was a problem And so I went and I used my notes. I hit the little note down in the bottom, Right there. Hit that. And up comes your note. And all I need to do is write on it, you know, again, it's the same thing, just tap on the page, And they're, There comes your note. open up the note I wasn't absent. So there it is. It's ready. Yeah, really. |
| 03:24:06.39 | Unknown | Not you. Me, I'm the absent one up here. I can't be glad we had a friend of folks now. |
| 03:24:11.43 | Unknown | So now, at the city council meeting, WHEN THIS ITEM COMES UP, MINUTES, YOU CAN GO, WAIT A SECOND, because We're gonna backtrack just a half a second here. because You made a comment. And you've made notes, so now, and I'm doing this Right-handed, but over here. That little note, that little sticky note sign means, you've made a note in your item. So if you click on that, I'm sorry. I have issues with these minutes. So now you know. AT THE MEETING, YOU'RE GOING TO GO, Wait a second. problem. MS. It's real quick. You go to your bookmarks. go to your roll call, open up your button, and you are there. Everything is really quick and easy. Those are the quick ones. that I had the most fun playing with But in addition, You've got your highlighting factor now. You simply make your You know, you choose your color, any color you want. You highlight everything. It's pretty sweet. Again, you can underline the same thing. |
| 03:25:24.37 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:25:26.44 | Unknown | These are, oh, the attachment attachments? |
| 03:25:29.11 | Unknown | you Thank you. |
| 03:25:29.97 | Unknown | Yes, because this is an attachment. |
| 03:25:30.09 | Unknown | Yes, because this is a Thank you. |
| 03:25:33.48 | Unknown | Yeah, I'm playing in a PDF. |
| 03:25:35.50 | Unknown | So open up one other thing for us. |
| 03:25:37.66 | Unknown | or am I not in a PDF? Is this the set of minutes that I entered the wrong one? |
| 03:25:42.19 | Unknown | If you were on the minutes, then you'd be able to keep it. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 03:25:45.29 | Unknown | Um... |
| 03:25:45.33 | Unknown | Um, Thank you. Thank you. All right. So open the minutes. I am. I'm in the minutes. Oh, OK. |
| 03:25:48.70 | Unknown | I am. I'm in the minutes. Yeah. |
| 03:25:53.07 | Unknown | So go back to your agenda. Yeah, that was a PDF. |
| 03:25:58.56 | Unknown | Yeah, that was a PDF. |
| 03:26:00.73 | Unknown | to the next day. |
| 03:26:01.64 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 03:26:02.15 | Unknown | you Thank you. Thank you. Yes, yes. |
| 03:26:07.01 | Unknown | Yes, yes, make sure you update because as a matter of fact, the last update The last update was, I don't remember now, but just the other day. the last of these functions started working. I did not have to do an update but it did finally start working. Um, But there is an update if you look on your settings, you'll see it. And then I threw in, just so you can see it, I threw in the last, whoops. If you want to take the time, you can actually handwrite, but that is not easy. I mean, So You can do that. |
| 03:26:45.32 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 03:26:47.36 | Unknown | The stylus, I did try it with the stylus, and it's still, it's a little bit too, Yeah, it's a little too compact. So that, in a nutshell, is a really quick training session. Oh, no, I still have more that I get to show you. OK, you've edited. And you can see |
| 03:27:09.62 | Unknown | Bye. Do you always host a game show? Yes, I do. |
| 03:27:11.00 | Unknown | Yes, I do. Yes. So you've done your edits and now you see this little envelope down there? You can email this to... you know, to whatever. And so just to show you, I emailed it. And that's the way it comes through. I did not say that it automatically populates. Please review this attachment. There's the attachment. And? I open it up. And this is what you're going to see when you open up A DOCUMENT THAT HAS BEEN ANNOTATED AND EMAILED TO YOU. HERE'S YOUR LITTLE Note. And it opens up. So the functionalities have changed phenomenally in the last few months. And what I wanted to add to is |
| 03:28:15.01 | Unknown | When we presented this, came through, we were doing really well for about the first six months. And then after that, Granted. that's when the Housing element came, and those were huge attachments. And so, yes, we provided the attachments hard copy, absolutely no problem. And then we did have one of our iPads that began to experience some hardware failure. And so we provided hard copies because we had hardware issues. And actually, that iPad has been totally replaced by Apple. So, All this was a learning process. But what I want to say to you is, We heard there's problems, but we don't know what the problems are. This is your opportunity to share. what the problems are if you want to. But, If I don't know what the problem is, I can't take it back to Granicus. And that's what I really want to say. Grannicus has written They really listen. Um, It might take them a few months to make changes, But, I want you to know that but when I was preparing for this last week, I came across instructions. They've never had instructions before. I printed these out, and I do need to get copies of this to you. But one of the things that I, I mean, email, I will email. |
| 03:29:43.42 | Heidi Scoble | No, I really handled it. I love it. . |
| 03:29:45.25 | Unknown | But what I wanted to say is when you read through this, you are going to see the answer. to the question that you raised as a council back in February. They talk specifically about the notes and where the notes reside. Granicus listens. And so if you've got problems, let me know. Is it something that I failed to teach you. Or is it something that Granicus can help do a little more tweaking with? With that, I leave it to you. That's on your left, Mayor. |
| 03:30:23.93 | Ray Withy | Okay, any now? Do you have any questions? |
| 03:30:28.10 | Thomas Theodores | What's this for? |
| 03:30:29.72 | Ray Withy | . I'm not. |
| 03:30:30.04 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 03:30:31.56 | Thomas Theodores | Oh. |
| 03:30:31.61 | Sandra Bushmaker | I'm sorry. |
| 03:30:31.85 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:30:31.95 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:30:31.96 | Unknown | Thank you. Or you can have keyboard. |
| 03:30:32.32 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 03:30:32.81 | Sandra Bushmaker | So |
| 03:30:33.40 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:30:34.46 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. So I'll make a comment just because I'm the council member, I think, in here that needs a hard packet. No, I find it hard. The old-fashioned. |
| 03:30:40.99 | Thomas Theodores | you |
| 03:30:41.04 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 03:30:41.06 | Vicki Nichols | a hard packet the old |
| 03:30:45.73 | Sandra Bushmaker | And by the way, I talked to council member Ford and Her feedback to me, this is just her feedback to me, was that she needed a hard copy. Now, I'm not going to speak for her. This is about me. This is where I'm coming from. I'm very comfortable with technology. I spent... |
| 03:31:00.40 | Bruce South | This is about. |
| 03:31:08.33 | Sandra Bushmaker | more than two decades of my career in Silicon Valley. And my field is, I mean, I design computer-based training for software and CAD-CAM. I mean, I'm familiar with technology, and frankly, I think this is wonderful what Granicus has done. I really like the footnotes and the highlights and all of those features. I think it's great. Um, People learn in different ways. Some people need more tactile objects need hard copy. I happen to be that way. Here is my calendar. So this is not just about the city council packet. It's just about how I learn and how I synthesize my own kind of organization, you know, when I'm learning. And so it's not a reflection on Apple or the iPod or iPad or these wonderful |
| 03:32:19.02 | Alice Merrill | you know, |
| 03:32:20.30 | Sandra Bushmaker | Bye. you Thank you. Don't wanna mess with that. With Granicus, because I think they've been really receptive. In fact, some of the things that they've come up with were questions that I had. |
| 03:32:21.57 | Alice Merrill | Don't want to mess with that. |
| 03:32:31.94 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 03:32:32.75 | Sandra Bushmaker | Um, And I did, you know, try the iPad, and so I can appreciate what they've done. But you guys, I just need this. I need to see the papers that I write, and I put just hopelessly, this way my mind is wired with this stuff. It's the same with the calendars. |
| 03:32:55.28 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. What would you like? |
| 03:32:58.76 | Ray Withy | Well, my comment is that if you want a copy like this, then print it off. We have the ability to print it. I mean, I do. So I'm just saying, if you want to go that way, which is the way we should go, that's fine. For me, I happen to... |
| 03:33:15.21 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 03:33:15.25 | Mary Wagner | you want. Hmm. |
| 03:33:22.70 | Ray Withy | print this out and I like it because it allows me to check off the night spot as I'm going down the line what's there. So my desire is to, if I want it that way, then print it out. |
| 03:33:35.56 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:33:35.87 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Thank you. That's a knock. |
| 03:33:38.05 | Thomas Theodores | What are you? |
| 03:33:39.02 | Unknown | What are you asking for? |
| 03:33:40.27 | Sandra Bushmaker | I'm asking to receive a double-sided printed packet from Citi. Because this would, I mean, to print this much, I mean, kudos to you, Herb, for printing it all out at home. But I mean, this would just wreck my printer if I had to do this. |
| 03:33:57.97 | Ray Withy | This would just wreck my printer if I had to do this. |
| 03:34:02.14 | Sandra Bushmaker | If I had to do this twice a month, My... |
| 03:34:08.96 | Ray Withy | you know, hopefully in the future as we go that this becomes, it should be now, this standard. We just went through that the last week at CDBG on that and we came up with the same answer as I'm mentioning tonight. If you want it, print it out. I know it's a lot of paper, |
| 03:34:37.87 | Sandra Bushmaker | It's a lot of paper and |
| 03:34:39.03 | Ray Withy | Yeah, but you know, right? |
| 03:34:40.57 | Sandra Bushmaker | I mean, I would run out of ink. It would be extremely costly and it would be very time consuming. My paper jams. |
| 03:34:45.29 | Ray Withy | And it was... |
| 03:34:49.26 | Sandra Bushmaker | I know that I've tried it. |
| 03:34:50.67 | Ray Withy | You get a good printer then. |
| 03:34:54.05 | Sandra Bushmaker | Just, that's all I'm asking for is to get a packet. |
| 03:34:58.20 | Ray Withy | Could I ask what the staff impact, what the resource impact is? Hello, thank you. |
| 03:35:06.76 | Adam Politzer | If you look at the attachment, which is the 2012 staff report, it talks about the cost to the city is roughly $4,000. But it's also, you know, the environment. It's the direction, as the mayor just mentioned, that many of these boards are heading. The JPAs send you an email. with the agenda. And if you want a hard copy, then it's at your disposal. So it's staff time. But again, We don't have a problem, but it has to be direction. What the council has directed us back in 2012 is this is the tool that the council will use to receive their information. It's posted on the web, and there's a hard copy in the library. So for us to change, for staff to support any change, that direction needs to come from |
| 03:36:09.28 | Thomas Theodores | I love the iPad. I love this tool. It's amazing that Branicus keeps improving it. I think that's fabulous. I think it's largely worked as far as we can see here and I think it's going to do some more in the future. Personally, I think it's great and it works for me. But I do think we have to understand that sometimes there are council members that may operate in a different manner, learning. in a different manner. We're at that transition point in society, in certain people of a certain age, can handle reading and reading of computers and iPads and some people can't. I would encourage though, because it is a cost factor and an environmental factor and possibly is there a way, and also I think it is difficult for us at home to print a lot if we're going to print these packages because we don't have commercial-style printers. I mean, it's difficult and we get paper jams and we spend half our time and we do a lot |
| 03:37:00.82 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 03:37:08.90 | Thomas Theodores | I'm Council and we're here at 11.30. I know you do a lot too, but. The, but I would say that I'd be supportive of having, I would maybe ask council members who would need more papers, is there a way that they could keep it more minimal? For example, asking that not every attachment, if you don't need it. Sometimes we have attachments over the course of weeks that you can save. Sometimes they're big and you may be able to look at them online, but need other ones to mark up. If there's some way that there could be some working with staff on this to minimize cost, environmental impact, and that kind of thing. |
| 03:37:44.07 | Ray Withy | Yeah, and just so you know, I went out and I have two printers. I specifically went out and got a laser jet, I know that word, printer, just for that reason, that I wouldn't be so long taking it and, you know, hey, for a guy that just figured out how to hit reply, to me that's an advancement. |
| 03:38:07.15 | Thomas Theodores | How, can I ask a question? How have you been handling it? How did you handle it with Carolyn? So you're getting a printed copy now, or you're not? |
| 03:38:16.75 | Sandra Bushmaker | I'm getting a printed copy and I started getting one too when Carolyn was still on the council |
| 03:38:23.55 | Thomas Theodores | Right, and she got one when her thing broke. Her iPad, sorry, not her thing. |
| 03:38:26.69 | Sandra Bushmaker | Well, she also, of course, I'm speaking for her, which I shouldn't do, but she told me that it didn't work for her either. |
| 03:38:30.03 | Thomas Theodores | Right. So do you still have to assemble the whole packet, the same process it takes? It used to take hours to put it all together. Is that right? You're still doing that process? |
| 03:38:33.73 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:38:33.81 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 03:38:33.95 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:38:33.97 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 03:38:34.03 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:38:44.78 | Thomas Theodores | Yes. Okay. Is there a way to just like get an account at Kinko's or something which is open generally favorable hours where you could just have it, they could just print it out there and If somebody really wanted a printed version, they could just go, you know, they just have the electronic files and you could print it out. I don't know what it is per page, but it's the time, too. I remember how much time you guys used to spend in the copy room just assembling this whole thing, printing it and assembling it, and then the time that you guys would have people had to go deliver it, which was always crazy in my mind that people had to deliver it. But that way you can just go pick it up. It's not like it's in here where it was hard to get if it was after work hours or something. Then you can just go in there and print it out. I don't know what that would cost, but that might be something to look into. |
| 03:39:35.19 | Ray Withy | You just. |
| 03:39:39.81 | Ray Withy | Well, we had it set up. You could go to the – if it's in here, you go to the library, get the key and get it. |
| 03:39:46.04 | Unknown | Why are you doing that? |
| 03:39:46.70 | Ray Withy | but, |
| 03:39:46.97 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:39:47.71 | Ray Withy | Now you do. |
| 03:39:48.37 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 03:39:49.83 | Adam Politzer | Right, and even that's about to change. |
| 03:39:50.09 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:39:50.10 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:39:50.12 | Unknown | Right. |
| 03:39:50.90 | Ray Withy | need to. |
| 03:39:50.97 | Unknown | I mean, I don't know. |
| 03:39:51.03 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:39:53.48 | Adam Politzer | But all those are options. One of the things worth noting is that This happens immediately, and also any changes or updates happen immediately, which obviously one of the requests from the council is to get this in your hands as soon as possible. So sometimes if the packet isn't 100%, complete and we send it out to you. and a late document follows, it comes to you and it can be followed with an email. |
| 03:40:25.59 | Sandra Bushmaker | I'm fine, and just to comment on that, if I have whatever is released on the Thursday or the Friday and I have that hard copy, I'm fine. I mean, if something is released late, you can, you know, give me the heads up. But if I just have something to hit the ground running, you know, on Friday or Thursday, then, you know, that's... That's what I need to learn. |
| 03:40:54.74 | Ray Withy | printed. |
| 03:40:58.21 | Ray Withy | And I did get a two-sided copy. on sale. So. Thank you. We have a There's a recommendation here for a motion. or what? |
| 03:41:16.22 | Sandra Bushmaker | Can I make the motion? |
| 03:41:18.83 | Ray Withy | going here. |
| 03:41:25.11 | Sandra Bushmaker | So... |
| 03:41:31.08 | Sandra Bushmaker | Let's see, what did we say? I move. I move to... to allow council members to choose to use the iPad or receive a paper copy. I'm just throwing this out for one of you guys. I'm just, whatever. And perhaps to direct staff to also assess the cost of using Kinko's, you know, for, versus the cost of the staff time and whichever staff recommends the council use. Not very elegant, but. |
| 03:42:21.58 | Ray Withy | OK, there's a motion on the floor. |
| 03:42:24.39 | Thomas Theodores | Can I have a friendly amendment? Can we just say that we'll do this for six months and see if there are alternatives to this, Thank you. |
| 03:42:32.75 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:42:32.86 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:42:32.93 | Ray Withy | This takes me two and a half minutes. Let me find out how much. |
| 03:42:34.55 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:42:34.60 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:42:34.72 | Thomas Theodores | Amen. |
| 03:42:34.97 | Thomas Theodores | Why don't we find out how much setting up another process would be and then before we |
| 03:42:37.72 | Ray Withy | I'm like, |
| 03:42:47.90 | Thomas Theodores | I know, look, I would print it out. I don't print it out. I wasn't all in favor of this to begin with, but I can say I've changed the way because I very much like, I don't know what your mind works like, but mine is I like to write stuff down while I'm reading it, and it just was a whole change to do that with this. And part of what I always do, and Ray's noticed this, is I scribble down things right away when we get to an item because I remember, oh, these are the things I wanted to write down. Okay, I'm not going to say this on the rest of it. I'm not going to put all the rest of this on the record. But anyway, I have my challenges. So I mean, I had to change sort of how I go about doing things, but that doesn't mean that anybody else should, because it is definitely a different process. |
| 03:42:47.97 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 03:42:47.98 | Thomas Theodores | He's coming out. |
| 03:42:54.35 | Unknown | I didn't. |
| 03:42:54.87 | Mary Wagner | was not. |
| 03:43:21.57 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 03:43:24.72 | Bruce South | Yeah. |
| 03:43:24.79 | Mary Wagner | So the... |
| 03:43:41.39 | Thomas Theodores | I mean, why don't we see how much it costs to maybe get a corporate rate. I don't know what the heck. You know, see if Kinkles will do you any favors in – I know you can set up a counselor where the documents would go there just like they would here, and they would update themselves. They have a system like that because I've used it before, but it would mean that you'd have to have another process when you put together your packet. But why don't you see what the options are and then... |
| 03:44:09.96 | Sandra Bushmaker | And Joanne's print shop. Well, probably came, I'm just tossing it out. |
| 03:44:12.70 | Thomas Theodores | Just toss it. Whatever. I mean, I don't care where you do it. |
| 03:44:15.02 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:44:15.26 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:44:15.60 | Ray Withy | Thank you. It isn't like how you're printing it in black so you use a black cartridge of it. I don't know. I just think we're adding steps. We as council people should If we want the choice of this copy, for that. the liveries. then You know, just like I learned to do it. Print it out. And I think that's... you know, for me because I'm so far behind on understanding technology. I'm lucky to get to that point to print it out. But nonetheless, you know, for, you know, it's... |
| 03:44:53.79 | Thomas Theodores | Right. |
| 03:44:59.09 | Ray Withy | If you want something, then you do it. You have the option. |
| 03:45:02.33 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 03:45:03.49 | Ray Withy | These are two options. You could either use your technology unit or the ability to print it out. And that's what we did at a few of the other meetings, and it seems that's the direction, or else we're gonna just keep on flopping back and forth, back and forth on this, all right? I think that, Maybe within a year I might be able to learn that, but You know, as I said, in my position now, and probably next year, I will go back to that and definitely learn it. |
| 03:45:31.52 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:45:31.55 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah. |
| 03:45:34.54 | Ray Withy | To me, the advantage is printing it out so I can, as running this meeting, can follow. |
| 03:45:40.43 | Thomas Theodores | Well, just a quick question, and then we can move forward with whatever we're going to do. But I can't remember if this, we used to have a budget for this in the budget, you know, for the paper, you know, that we used to have a budget for council reports or council stuff, I seem to recall, that it was in the general something or other. I know where it went from, but then we had a budget in Rhett's budget for, to buy these. |
| 03:45:44.23 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:46:08.21 | Thomas Theodores | the machines themselves, the iPads guy, and I work in this business, I sound like I'm only 400 years old. But so are we running a budget for, did we have in this year's budget to acquire, you know, we couldn't have known how many new council members are going to be, so how do we buy these? Where did it come out of? Just general funny money somewhere or was it out of cash? |
| 03:46:14.89 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 03:46:14.91 | Ray Withy | uh |
| 03:46:32.76 | Adam Politzer | Well, some of them are just reprogrammed. Okay. Erased and reused. |
| 03:46:34.48 | Thomas Theodores | Okay. |
| 03:46:39.66 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:46:39.69 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 03:46:39.71 | Unknown | Okay, bring it. |
| 03:46:41.99 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. I would agree with your two things. If you don't want to change, that's your prerogative, and you shouldn't have to pay to print it out versus you. Either one, but if you choose to print it out, that's your own thing. Let's see how much it would cost. My concern is more staff time, frankly, because that's the limited resource, right, is that it used to take you and Patty and each member of the, from each thing to go in and print their stuff. It took like all day, I remember, to assemble this stuff. So I don't want you guys to have to do that because that's a waste of time. It's not a productive use of your time. |
| 03:47:17.23 | Ray Withy | It's not a problem. I meant to correct the mistake. |
| 03:47:20.94 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah, or whatever, the thing would jam and whatever. It was all crazy. And it made your timeline to get this ready even shorter, right? Because it pushed a day back. It's a little bit better. |
| 03:47:32.06 | Thomas Theodores | the whole cruise. |
| 03:47:32.65 | Thomas Theodores | No, not just her, the whole staff, because everybody had to get everything much earlier because you couldn't just press send, and there it is in the document. I'm not that far away. But why don't we look into this, and then we can come back and see. Rather than pass it, we don't need to make a motion, I don't think. Why don't we see what it would cost to have some physical location where you could go and get it printed for yourself, and then if you did it early, then too bad. The updates are coming electronically later, and if you do it the last minute, you might not be able to get it printed for yourself. And then if you did it early, then too bad. The updates will come electronically later. And if you do it the last minute, you might not be able to get it because they might not be able to turn it around for you. |
| 03:47:40.93 | Ray Withy | But why don't we look So, |
| 03:47:42.91 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:47:42.92 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:48:06.60 | Sandra Bushmaker | Okay. |
| 03:48:07.38 | Thomas Theodores | Can they look into it and come back and see if it's crazy cost-wise, then maybe? |
| 03:48:07.88 | Sandra Bushmaker | I mean, yeah, they can look into it and come back and see if it's crazy. |
| 03:48:12.58 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:48:12.59 | Sandra Bushmaker | She can get a bid. I'm just saying, you know, I'm just letting you know that this is what I need in order to be able to come up here and, you know, comment. That's cool. |
| 03:48:13.50 | Bruce South | Thank you. |
| 03:48:13.52 | Thomas Theodores | . |
| 03:48:13.59 | Bruce South | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 03:48:23.83 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:48:23.85 | Ray Withy | comments. |
| 03:48:24.44 | Thomas Theodores | of Thank you. |
| 03:48:25.32 | Sandra Bushmaker | Vote. |
| 03:48:26.09 | Ray Withy | Vote. And I need this too, but I print it. Okay. |
| 03:48:31.83 | Sandra Bushmaker | Well. |
| 03:48:32.42 | Ray Withy | We've already been here. |
| 03:48:32.57 | Sandra Bushmaker | We've already discussed that. Thank you. |
| 03:48:33.94 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Printing is always duplicate. Anyway... So can we continue? |
| 03:48:40.45 | Thomas Theodores | Continue this to another agenda, another date uncertain, and you can come back with another once you have an option, if there are any, for another printed option. But my suggestion would be not to do it in-house because it's just too much time. We would rather, I think, at least let's look into the other options. Okay. |
| 03:49:00.01 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:49:05.48 | Thomas Theodores | Yeah. |
| 03:49:05.60 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yeah. |
| 03:49:05.82 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Right. |
| 03:49:07.91 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yeah, and I want to add to that this is something that I hope we can get resolution. Do we have a timeframe on that? Did you say six months? |
| 03:49:08.25 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:49:19.16 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:49:19.20 | Thomas Theodores | Well, |
| 03:49:19.26 | Ray Withy | No, no. So the next meeting? |
| 03:49:19.43 | Thomas Theodores | No. |
| 03:49:20.04 | Sandra Bushmaker | you |
| 03:49:20.09 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:49:20.38 | Sandra Bushmaker | So the next meeting? OK, that would be good. |
| 03:49:23.65 | Ray Withy | We'll tackle this to the next one. Thank you. All right. City Manager report. |
| 03:49:30.30 | Adam Politzer | I think I've said enough tonight, so I'll... |
| 03:49:32.65 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:49:32.73 | Adam Politzer | and then, |
| 03:49:32.80 | Ray Withy | and, |
| 03:49:32.83 | Adam Politzer | Answer any questions the council may have. Otherwise, onward and upward. |
| 03:49:37.17 | Ray Withy | Okay. future, I'm sorry, public comment? Vicky. |
| 03:49:43.70 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 03:49:45.56 | Ray Withy | All right. |
| 03:49:45.57 | Thomas Theodores | Thank you. |
| 03:49:45.67 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:49:45.69 | Thomas Theodores | All right. |
| 03:49:45.98 | Unknown | What do you want to witness? |
| 03:49:47.24 | Ray Withy | What do you want to witness? |
| 03:49:50.26 | Unknown | Can I get a... |
| 03:49:51.07 | Ray Withy | Can I get him? future with the agenda items. |
| 03:49:57.60 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:49:57.62 | Ray Withy | Yeah. |
| 03:49:58.16 | Thomas Theodores | Speaking of the post office, can we get an update on that at some point? just |
| 03:50:01.22 | Ray Withy | the man. |
| 03:50:01.59 | Thomas Theodores | of. |
| 03:50:04.19 | Ray Withy | It's in the mail. |
| 03:50:08.59 | Ray Withy | I appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. On future items, I think, by the way, I'd like to, for the next meeting, could you get us a mission statement for the art commission so we can move that along and start putting that together? |
| 03:50:25.77 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yes, and I'll just comment on that. Yeah, the mission statement's done. I mean, it's just the existing resolution, like I mentioned before, and I just got to email it to you, so. |
| 03:50:25.80 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Yes. |
| 03:50:29.92 | Ray Withy | Yes. |
| 03:50:37.36 | Ray Withy | Okay. All right. Okay. Any other thing? Any public comment? Future agenda items? Vicki? Okay. Council member reports? Okay. |
| 03:50:55.43 | Sandra Bushmaker | I have a comment. Mr. Mayor, I emailed you names of the folks who are interested in the Butte Preservation Task Force. |
| 03:50:56.57 | Ray Withy | I'm here. |
| 03:51:02.73 | Ray Withy | Okay, we're putting that together. Preferably, I would like people... that live around the Butte area? I think they have a vested interest in that. |
| 03:51:16.36 | Sandra Bushmaker | They all live there? |
| 03:51:17.98 | Ray Withy | No. Okay. |
| 03:51:19.25 | Sandra Bushmaker | All the names I sent live there. |
| 03:51:20.85 | Adam Politzer | Mr. Mayor, can I just ask that if Councilmember Pfeiffer has not already done so to forward those names to City Clerk, can you? |
| 03:51:29.56 | Heidi Scoble | Absolutely. |
| 03:51:30.38 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 03:51:31.50 | Ray Withy | Okay, any other reports of significance? No, seeing none. Okay, let's move for adjourn. can move. All in favor. to all and good night. |
| 03:51:48.39 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
Adam Politzer — In Favor: Welcomed the staff report for putting issues on the table. Viewed the Marinship as a community resource that requires a joint public-private program to address infrastructure due to limited city and private funds. Emphasized the need for city leadership and private owner participation through improvement districts to save the economic base. ▶ 📄
Chris Gallagher — In Favor: Congratulated the Council for bringing the item forward after years of advocacy. Urged the Council not to appoint another committee but to use the existing WAM report. Committed to continuing to push for action as the 'mother of Marinship.' ▶ 📄
Vicki Nichols — Neutral: Agreed there have been enough studies. Stressed that any steering committee must be truly diverse and have community buy-in, with a clear objective to be effective. Emphasized the need to honor the original visionary intent while re-examining the entire plan, not just parts. ▶ 📄
John Cox — In Favor: Noted the topic has been debated for years. Pointed to the convoluted 21 specific goals and the Harmonia case as examples of problems. Supported a steering committee to reassess if the goals reflect the current environment after 25 years. ▶ 📄