| Time | Speaker | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00.03 | Unknown | Okay, we're ready to go. Okay, so let's get this started. And welcome everybody to our meeting tonight, the Marinship Specific Plans Steering Committee. We've got a couple of handouts over here on the front table, some good ones that we'll be going through later. First green one is the agenda. And then we've got a couple of other reference documents that we've gotten from staff. A summary on MarinShip we call MarinShip 101. an inventory from 2010 of marine-related businesses and the marine ship, and then something on working waterfront, different definitions from Henry Pontarelli. And we've got a new article here. |
| 00:00:50.76 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:00:52.14 | Unknown | Propaganda, somebody left on our table? |
| 00:00:54.44 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:00:55.75 | Unknown | There you go, propaganda left on the table. |
| 00:00:57.51 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:00:57.52 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:00.07 | Unknown | This one here. Yeah, I don't think we have time to read this right now are we? Okay, so let's get started, and we've got usual suspects here, so we won't go through the format in too much detail, but call to order. We'll start with that. |
| 00:01:23.41 | Unknown | Committee member Werner? |
| 00:01:26.80 | Unknown | Here. |
| 00:01:27.04 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:27.17 | Unknown | Thank you. Committee Member Theodoris? Committee Member Withey? |
| 00:01:29.13 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:29.15 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:29.17 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:29.20 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:29.22 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:31.26 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:31.29 | Unknown | here. |
| 00:01:31.85 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:31.97 | Unknown | Oh. |
| 00:01:32.19 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 00:01:32.20 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 00:01:32.32 | Unknown | Thank you. Committee Member Badger. Here. |
| 00:01:33.89 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:01:34.97 | Unknown | Kelly? Here. Chair Petrovich? Here. I'm noting that committee member Hunting is absent this evening. |
| 00:01:35.58 | Unknown | Here. Thank you. |
| 00:01:37.31 | Unknown | Take care. |
| 00:01:42.67 | Unknown | Okay, and then item number two, approval of the agenda. |
| 00:01:47.51 | Unknown | Second. |
| 00:01:49.94 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. Robyn, just as we had suggested, potentially moving on item – moving the items around this. |
| 00:01:53.03 | Unknown | suggested |
| 00:01:56.97 | Unknown | and kind of surrounded. All right. |
| 00:02:00.11 | Unknown | I move the agenda by moving item, which one was it? |
| 00:02:05.46 | Unknown | We want to move A after B and C. |
| 00:02:09.40 | Unknown | Thank you, BMC. |
| 00:02:14.34 | Unknown | We second that. Thank you. |
| 00:02:15.42 | Unknown | Exactly. |
| 00:02:16.72 | Unknown | Okay. So all those in favor say aye. Aye. |
| 00:02:22.27 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 00:02:24.21 | Unknown | Okay, next item up, we go to... Public comment on items not on the agenda, so if there's any public comment. Now is the time. If there's anything you want to say that's not so nice, remember there's cookies on the table. But it looks like we're just going to move right on. Okay. Of course, there will be a chance for comment later. So getting into sort of discussion, and we're going to have – Lily's going to walk through us, walk through the two documents that she put together for us, one of them being the – the first one being the Marine Business Inventory. |
| 00:03:08.66 | Unknown | Thank you, Mr. Chair. The city conducted an inventory of businesses in the Marin ship in the 2010-2011 timeframe and produced a report that's available on the Marin ship specific plan. Steering Committee website. There was a subsequent follow-up report to the City Council in the May 2011 timeframe. The Council had asked specifically the makeup of marine-oriented businesses that the inventory captured in the 2010 timeframe. So I've given that to the committee members in the form of the staff report that went to the council in that timeframe. And it's also – I distributed it via the email list as well. So that's in front of you. So that provides kind of a snapshot in time of The maritime businesses that were in the Marin ship there may have been some that we missed due to not having access to the property So there may be others that existed at that time, but that kind of gives you a starting point for Some of those businesses that were in the Marin ship |
| 00:04:22.72 | Unknown | I'm available for any questions you might have as well. |
| 00:04:27.69 | Unknown | Okay, so this is a pretty – do you happen to know how many businesses are on this list? |
| 00:04:33.31 | Unknown | 48. |
| 00:04:34.15 | Unknown | 48th. |
| 00:04:35.58 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:04:37.78 | Unknown | Okay. And we're not aware if there have been any changes since then? |
| 00:04:42.67 | Unknown | We haven't gone back in and updated the inventory. |
| 00:04:44.07 | Unknown | And obviously, Okay. Anybody have any comments on this? list for questions or does it seem as far as to show anybody's knowledge has there been any radical changes or I guess I was there |
| 00:04:58.90 | Unknown | I guess I wonder about, you know, just listing them doesn't tell us much about what their health is. In other words, are these all businesses that are |
| 00:05:09.25 | Unknown | and then it was. |
| 00:05:15.27 | Unknown | Uh... successful, Are they all businesses that are Thank you. sort of winding down, or how many of them are are in a growth mode and how many of them are fairly hanging on and do we know |
| 00:05:24.45 | Unknown | We're going to... |
| 00:05:30.95 | Unknown | anything about why either the success or lack thereof is true. |
| 00:05:37.07 | Unknown | Does anybody have any feedback on that? Thank you. |
| 00:05:38.85 | Unknown | I know about some of them. Some of the people are reluctant to discuss just how well they're doing. I'm willing to watch. But, you know, that's a huge job to go in there and go into businesses and ask them for their balance sheets and so on and so forth. But that's the hell of a deal. If you really go in there and analyze this and every one of those businesses, I'm not sure they're required to get a set of communities in the third place. Why would they? I don't know. I mean, that could be a massive deal. |
| 00:06:14.98 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:06:15.53 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:06:16.12 | Unknown | Well, the reason I raised the question is that, you know, there are those who are property owners that say, well, you know, the maritime businesses are all |
| 00:06:16.56 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:06:23.92 | Unknown | declining. And so therefore, we ought to be building condos and restaurants or whatever. Now, is that we could simply take this list and assume that all 48 of them are on average, doing okay. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:06:48.96 | Unknown | a letter to all the council on how those businesses are doing, even in the depth, that was in the depth of the recession. And I think they're combined, just three of those businesses combined were doing close to $7 million. and then Goodyear, you know, Bayside Boat will do, you know, 10 million, maybe even better. |
| 00:07:18.93 | Unknown | But it still doesn't tell you how healthy their business is. |
| 00:07:25.48 | Unknown | I'm just saying that's just revenue. |
| 00:07:25.56 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:07:29.01 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. that they had |
| 00:07:32.63 | Unknown | Well, I mean, we could just run through the list really quick, just quickly go down. I mean, there's a number of sale makers. Is anybody familiar with any of those businesses? |
| 00:07:42.10 | Unknown | That is a good question. Yeah. May I clarify? There's a document you sent out that's the final, let's see, the Marinship Business Land Use Inventory Report, which is a little bit different. |
| 00:07:43.13 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 00:07:54.35 | Unknown | And it has charts, which breaks it down to commercial, industrial. So it puts them in categories, which we all received this as part of the package. Not in hard copy, but in solid copy. Do you understand how those two documents were related? It looks like they're certainly linked because they cite this 2011 date. Definitely. |
| 00:08:07.30 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:08:07.31 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 00:08:07.95 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:08:11.04 | Unknown | Definitely so there was an original master inventory done for the marine ship that attempted to inventory all businesses at that time in the Marin ship, regardless of them being marine oriented or not. And that inventory was presented to the council I believe in March of 2011. Subsequently, the council directed staff to take a look at that inventory and parse out the marine-oriented related businesses and give that list to the council. So this list. This is a follow-up. Exactly. So it's the same businesses that were in that master report. It's just limited to the marine-related businesses. |
| 00:08:46.06 | Unknown | that the next. |
| 00:08:56.23 | Unknown | The one thing the report does, it says it gives marine industrialists 16 and marine arts is five. It breaks them into categories. I see. if that's helpful. |
| 00:09:12.33 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:09:12.35 | Unknown | I'm not. |
| 00:09:12.42 | Unknown | Oh. |
| 00:09:12.49 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:09:12.49 | Unknown | I'm going to go. |
| 00:09:12.69 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:09:12.70 | Unknown | Oh, this is on the back. Thank you. |
| 00:09:15.25 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:09:15.54 | Unknown | Thank you. Well, I think that's, I mean, I think it's... Thank you. There we go. |
| 00:09:18.41 | Unknown | There we go. I want to know there's more charts in it. |
| 00:09:21.23 | Unknown | I don't know if we should spend, well, we'll probably end up coming back to this, but I wonder if maybe part of the discussion, if we're going to look at this list, is thinking about the diversity of what falls under marine inventory on this particular list. You know, there's sail making, there's yacht repair, there's... I've always wanted to go in that dive shop because I don't understand why it's there, but it's been there a long time. There's sailing schools, right? There's houseboat builders. There's the diving services. Memorials at sea, you know, that's got to be a pretty solid business. It's never really going to go away. Right? It just depends on how well they can operate. And taxes. Yeah, it's long term. So you've got riggers. |
| 00:10:09.96 | Unknown | In Texas. |
| 00:10:18.94 | Unknown | You've got, of course, West Marine, we know what's happening with that, but it's still a viable business. You know, marine-related retail, yacht sales are still happening, regardless of whether or not they've switched out. And there's quite a few of these that are still on there. So in Giannullo's canvas, they don't really do marine anymore, but they do canvas. I guess they could do marine. It's more of a, it seems like more of an industrial use. Other canvases, reading services. |
| 00:10:50.50 | Unknown | I think the people made dodgers for votes |
| 00:10:53.03 | Unknown | Sarah covers |
| 00:10:54.19 | Unknown | Yeah, all sorts of things. But they also make awnings. You know, over there they make awnings, well, for not boats as well. Thank you. All right. They – you know, so we've also got – and then we've got, you know, things like Blue Rush Board Sports, so retail and rental, so totally recreational. Sea Trek, of course, we know, you know, recreational again. And then there's the support service. And, you know, open water rowing is under here, too, so it says recreational. So there's a number of different – if you had to categorize them. I think maybe we want to come back to that at some point. If you had to categorize them, you get recreational, you get retail. |
| 00:11:43.03 | Unknown | You get support and repair. |
| 00:11:49.66 | Unknown | You even get boat building. |
| 00:11:58.40 | Unknown | And you've got schools. And then you get marine related non-profits. |
| 00:12:05.64 | Unknown | Yeah. you Thank you. |
| 00:12:08.58 | Unknown | Right. So maybe that's like support. So there's a number of different categories. within that whole area. The only reason I'm going through that list is not to be boring, but because I think we may end up kind of coming back to that one that we got into a discussion of what's working |
| 00:12:27.78 | Unknown | Can I just ask Lily a question? |
| 00:12:27.81 | Unknown | You know? |
| 00:12:31.96 | Unknown | This subset of the total businesses, which were classified as marine related, that was just an assessment made of the business. It's not, these were, are these distributed between or in both the W zone and the I zone, these businesses? |
| 00:13:00.20 | Unknown | They are looking at some of them, yeah. Yeah, that's the question, yes. They're not just W related businesses. |
| 00:13:06.25 | Unknown | It was looking at the entire Marin ship, yeah. |
| 00:13:08.99 | Unknown | So. In fact, some of the sailmakers are deep in the eye. And quite far away from the W. |
| 00:13:20.68 | Unknown | Um... So maybe we end up coming back to this. So we can move on then to leadership 101. |
| 00:13:49.20 | Unknown | Yes. |
| 00:13:59.27 | Unknown | So I have a brief presentation for you. that is basically identical to the presentation I gave when the committee started. So if I'm getting too much into details, you can stop and say we know this already. But we thought it was important to start your conversation about the plan with this overview. So this presentation goes into a little bit about what a specific plan is and then the different components of the MarinShip specific plan itself. |
| 00:14:26.60 | Unknown | is and |
| 00:14:32.84 | Unknown | So first of all, a specific plan is a tool for implementing the general plan. And in terms of hierarchy, it sits between the general plan, which is the very top, and the implementing regulations, for example, the zoning ordinance. In terms of background, the Marinship specific plan, as you're aware, was adopted by the council in 88. |
| 00:14:55.59 | Unknown | All right. |
| 00:14:55.71 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:14:58.59 | Unknown | It was updated in 89. And then in 1995, the general plan was amended to incorporate the provisions of the specific plan. The general intent of the specific plan was to retain yet focus the 1970 general plan objectives, which were to promote the waterfront area and promote diversified water-dependent uses, and to promote the development of other lands in the Marin ship with industrial uses and uses compatible with an industrial area. There are 21 specific goals of the specific plan to be considered when evaluating any development or uses in the area. Here's the pages from the Marine Ship Specific Plan with those 21 goals. Some of the goals revolve around preserving and enhancing the maritime industrial history and character of the area. Others revolve around preserving the Marine Ship as an area primarily oriented to the use and service of Sausalito residents and not visitors. Others encourage public access and use of the water and maintaining an urban rather than suburban character in the Marin ship. So this is the area that this specific plan covers. |
| 00:16:22.58 | Unknown | and there are nine different zoning ordinance zoning districts in the March of specific plan area that's waterfront industrial public institutional open space public parks shopping center open area and houseboat |
| 00:16:45.17 | Unknown | And the marineship-specific plan is divided into three different marineship-specific plan planning zones, not to be confused with zoning districts. And those correspond to different traffic distribution zones, as identified in the MSP. Within each of those planning zones, there's a further division into planning areas, which were at the time based on the use at the time, the character identity, the land form, and or ownership. And then those planning areas are further divided into planning parcels, and that's when we were talking about parcel-specific uses. The parcels consist of individual accessor parcels under a single ownership, and when the ownership was not contiguous, a separate planning parcel was created. |
| 00:17:44.08 | Unknown | I have these overlays here. So this is just looking at an example of Marinship Specific Plan Planning Zone 2. And within that zone, there's Planning Area 6, which is further divided into three different planning parcels. |
| 00:18:05.08 | Unknown | This is the use table in the MSP, and uses in the Marinship System Plan are allowed on a planning, parcel-specific basis. So you correspond the use to the specific parcel and the specific plan to see what uses are allowed or not. And using this table, if there's a circle and it's colored in, then that use is allowed by right or principally allowed. If the circle is only half filled in or a quarter filled in, then there's some sort of special use permit that's required, either at an administrative level or a planning commission And then if the square isn't filled in at all, it means that that use is not allowed. There are – in some cases, there was office, retail, and residential land uses that aren't allowed in the emergency-specific plan, but were allowed on a parcel-by-parcel basis based on if they existed at the time that the MSP was adopted. And then other uses, like restaurants and live aboards, were limited to specified parcels subject to conditions. |
| 00:19:25.42 | Unknown | So this is just an example using that prior example of Zone 2, Planning Area 6, parcels A, B, C. You can see that each of the parcels are allowed different land uses based on their designation. So for example, parcel 6A would allow for applied arts, while parcels 6B and 6C would not. |
| 00:19:39.04 | Unknown | I know. |
| 00:19:52.50 | Unknown | The allowed uses are further refined by the development programs in the Marineship-specific |
| 00:19:55.37 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:19:58.39 | Unknown | And those development programs are first organized by zoning district. So first, there's a narrative describing the general intent of the zoning district. So for example, the general intent of the industrial zoning district is to promote non-polluting, low-intensity industrial uses in addition to uses like warehousing, maritime arts, craft workshops, and so on. Then there's a discussion of the typical condition, which describes the allowed uses in detail. For example, in the industrial zoning district, arts are in allowed use, and the narrative regarding arts specifically states that retail art galleries are not allowed. And there's also limits on sales events and signage for that type of a use. And lastly, in that specific section, there's a section on site-specific exceptions, which provides a parcel-by-parcel analysis for the specific considerations to the typical conditions that were previously identified. |
| 00:21:15.07 | Unknown | Lastly there are a number of development standards in the Marinship specific plan and That includes circulation, access, sidewalk standards, public access standards, bike paths, lighting, landscaping, parking, building heights, and drainage. And the document also includes parcel-specific references as applicable for each standard. So these types of standards would be applicable if there was a new development project or redevelopment of a site. And that concludes the kind of basic Marinship 101. overview. |
| 00:21:57.80 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:22:02.78 | Unknown | So I think we can spend a little bit more time in this area. I think one of our homework items last week was to go back and reread the specific plan to make sure that we were more familiar with it at this point in time. And so I think there's some discussion around it. I don't know if maybe, Ray, do you have any place where you want to start, or I have a suggestion if you don't. |
| 00:22:28.97 | Unknown | I was going to ask a couple of questions. |
| 00:22:30.37 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:22:33.62 | Margaret Badger | We'll be right back. Thank you. That's it. |
| 00:22:36.73 | Unknown | Lily, could you... |
| 00:22:42.08 | Unknown | explain what the, I don't know if you have a copy of the Zonin. |
| 00:22:50.72 | Unknown | I was wondering whether you could talk about I've got chapter 1026 here, which is called Industrial Marinship District. Without going into details, what's the relationship between that district and the zoning ordinance and then the marinships with specific plans? |
| 00:23:14.90 | Unknown | So that chapter is to implement the specific plan. It goes on a pretty general basis of what's in the marineship specific plan. So there's a use table similar to the other use tables that are in the zoning ordinance that really generalizes the use table that we looked at here. It essentially lists all of the types of uses that could be allowed in the specific plan and then generally says if it's permitted or not, and then there's a reference, I think, to the Marinship-specific plan. And then – are you referring to the narrative that's in the chapter as well? Or just the use-stable plan? |
| 00:23:55.76 | Unknown | No, I was really trying to understand the relationship between the table in it. Table 1026. |
| 00:24:01.68 | Unknown | Yeah. It's essentially a very generalized version of the table that we just looked at. That table. This is the more specific table. So if someone came to the planning counter, a planner would go to this table to see if a use was allowed on a specific parcel or not. The table that's in the zoning ordinance is too general to tell, in my opinion. |
| 00:24:15.72 | Unknown | to the next. |
| 00:24:34.74 | Unknown | But are there also contradictions if you look at the two? |
| 00:24:38.90 | Unknown | There are uses in the zoning ordinance that I've found that there aren't a reference to in the Marinship Specific Plan. |
| 00:24:51.02 | Unknown | And so if you go to the marine ship specific plan, I mean, there's a lot of narrative at the zone and level, sorry, not the zone, the parcel planning area and then down to the specific parcel level. |
| 00:25:04.76 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:25:10.66 | Unknown | And... The thing that we seem to Um, |
| 00:25:22.54 | Unknown | Turn to is a whole definition of |
| 00:25:30.59 | Unknown | uses. that are in the appendix. to the marine ship specific plan. and Often it seems that what we do is we turn to that appendix and treat it as if it's a zoning ordinance. And so I'm still trying to understand how We. the two are supposed to work together. Because in the specific plan, it specifically says Appendix B is just a list of examples. And they're not all the uses. That's what the apprenticeship specific plan tells you. So you had up there that the zoning ordinance was adopted in 89, presumably once these marineship specific plan was adopted. And then the general plan was adopted in 1995, and then the zoning ordinance was redone in 2003, and the table from the zoning ordinance, so now written 14 years after the Marineship specific plan was put in place, So if the Marinship Specific Plan list of definitions says, these are examples and are not the total exhaustive list of uses, and 14 years later, City Council comes along after presumably a fairly significant piece of work and creates a whole bunch of definitions and says this is what's allowed in the Marinership specific. This is what's allowed. and Isn't that the table you should be going to? not Appendix B of the marineship-specific plan. So I'm just trying to understand hierarchy here, and I'm also, if you believe in the Marineship Specific Plan, you should believe in the words that's actually written in. which is, this is not an exhaustive list of uses. So how do we rationalize that? |
| 00:27:29.39 | Unknown | So how do we rationalize that? of the fish. |
| 00:27:34.79 | Unknown | but I don't think you're putting our blinders. Which one? |
| 00:27:40.67 | Unknown | Page 74 onwards. |
| 00:27:45.80 | Unknown | That was left out of the binder. Okay. |
| 00:27:47.69 | Unknown | Okay, so I think why this is important is that if we're going to talk uses, we've got to start saying, well, what does the plan actually allow? in the waterfront What is it, what does it actually allow in the industrial zone? What does our zoning ordinance allow in the W zone? What does our zoning ordinance allow in the I zone? before we can really begin the conversation of should there be anything different? Let's see what is allowed. Because there's a large folks who seem to think they |
| 00:28:17.52 | Unknown | Lark. |
| 00:28:22.67 | Unknown | have a very clear view as to how the Marinship specific plan works. who, just do not realize that the I-zone is zoned for not for general industrial, as well as Marine industrial. I mean, there's a whole bunch of people who seem to think that the only industrial that's allowed in the marine ship is marine related. And that is not what the specific plan says. |
| 00:28:45.68 | Unknown | Thank you. No, and the specific plan doesn't say that. Right. At all. But I go back, I mean, this business of the hierarchy |
| 00:28:50.87 | Unknown | Right. I can't. |
| 00:28:52.22 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:28:55.89 | Unknown | I... Planning documents are designed to be Uh... What's the right word fungible maybe or or less than precise in some cases so that there can be interpretations. The reason I was interested in based on your comment about going to review the specific plan, I said to myself, well, wait a minute, what happened in the general plan, which came eight years after the specific plan, and how did it describe the workings of it. And if you go through the general plan and all the policies and programs and so on and they're all even more general. But they all say very specifically... to apply the Marin Ship Pacific Plan policies as they pertain to whatever they're talking about. Thank you. So, the general plan essentially referenced right away back to the specific plan in its context. |
| 00:30:03.68 | Unknown | It also says on page 7, it says, the existing zoning categories, boundaries, and much of the zoning ordinance remain unchanged in the MNCHIP-specific plan Thank you. That's an issue. |
| 00:30:13.16 | Unknown | That's in the specific plan. I'm talking about the general plan, which came eight years later. and a general plan. defers back to the specific plan in all cases. |
| 00:30:31.37 | Unknown | is |
| 00:30:31.56 | Unknown | Is it a more important question to ask? Well, how is it actually applied? |
| 00:30:37.26 | Unknown | Well, in some cases, it's been applied with a wink, wink, nod, nod in a number of locations. We know that. |
| 00:30:48.62 | Unknown | I mean, you know, using either Marinsia-specific plan or general zoning plan? |
| 00:30:55.18 | Unknown | or applying conditions which don't get paid attention to. |
| 00:31:03.79 | Unknown | He's a good friend. |
| 00:31:03.98 | Unknown | the mic. |
| 00:31:05.90 | Unknown | What would be the most glaring example of a wink-wink situation? |
| 00:31:10.98 | Unknown | Oh, well, the most glaring example, there's two of them, Le Garage and Fish. you know, they both have limited conditions of approval that say LaGarage, for instance, came back and asked for additional seating and up to 40. You go down there now, you can count 80 chairs without any without even you know |
| 00:31:33.88 | Unknown | I'm going to blow this bass. |
| 00:31:35.19 | Unknown | Yeah. and so nothing is done about that. I mean, I think that... Now, in There were even... There were even issues in the changeover on the Anna Sully property when that came before the Planning Commission, I don't know how many years ago it was. when it was converted into a pleasure boat Marina. |
| 00:32:02.09 | Unknown | And I think if you took a look at some of the industrial uses that are currently away from the waterfront. What would be a good question? |
| 00:32:11.17 | Unknown | That would be a good example of, say, an industrial use. I know these three now that you bring them up. |
| 00:32:14.36 | Unknown | Thank you. So I think that's it. I'm sorry. |
| 00:32:14.99 | Unknown | I know. you know, I'll bring up the one I brought up last time, Carteligent. You walk into Carteligent, it's a basically financing office for automobiles. |
| 00:32:25.46 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:32:25.48 | Unknown | Right. |
| 00:32:27.05 | Unknown | That would not be a use that's |
| 00:32:28.89 | Unknown | Well, but the thing about that one is that One of the permitted uses in the I-Zone is finance. |
| 00:32:38.44 | Unknown | There you go. |
| 00:32:39.32 | Unknown | And because it's permitted because it was there. It's like plumbing and heating supplies. Raquel was there. |
| 00:32:43.83 | Unknown | Right. |
| 00:32:49.48 | Unknown | Um. |
| 00:32:50.29 | Unknown | If you look under food services, for example, there were only one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine food service operations approved or existing, is the better way of saying it. And I don't, I haven't counted them lately, but. I don't know. They're probably somewhere different. I think it's... A planning document is a framework. It's a roadmap to how the city would like to see areas developed. but then humans get involved humans want what they want when they want it And a landowner wants to rent his space to somebody, and he doesn't necessarily, and it's what we classify as industrial, he doesn't necessarily ask a list of questions and disqualify or qualify the tenant. Based on that list of questions, it would conform to a specific plan or to a general plan, for that matter. just like some people in town are renting apartments in places where apartments are not allowed. And so it's the human part of the planning code that we're talking about dealing with here, is that how do we make this a working, living document that can be applied to an area that gets what the citizens in general would approve of? |
| 00:34:16.13 | Unknown | Well, isn't it that – I mean, that's only enforced or applied when somebody applies for a building permit. And then only then does it really kind of get looked at. If you just have an empty space and you lease it, nobody's really going to look at it. |
| 00:34:28.01 | Unknown | Technically, use, if you change the use without going to the city, then you have needed to have come to the city to get your business license and or your change of use. Right, but a practicality. Your occupancy permit. An occupancy permit is the document that keeps people from occupying and using without permission. |
| 00:34:38.39 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:34:38.49 | Unknown | So, |
| 00:34:38.51 | Unknown | I don't know. |
| 00:34:38.68 | Unknown | of |
| 00:34:38.91 | Unknown | Congratulations. |
| 00:34:39.74 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:34:39.84 | Unknown | You're asking for me. |
| 00:34:49.19 | Unknown | mission. so Do people always go get those? No. THEIR OWNERS. |
| 00:34:57.56 | Unknown | But when you're building, you have to. A lot of people don't always do that either. But as the extent of it. |
| 00:35:02.05 | Unknown | Well, no, actually, you could build a space that's an office space or an industrial space. but you would be limited to the uses of office and industrial. If you occupy it in some other way, you'd be in violation of zoning code. what we're faced with here is a 25, 26, 27, 28-year-old document. What is it? 1988. So you're faced with a document that is long in the tooth, as they would say. And things have happened and changes have gone on and... Occupancies have moved around Predominantly, probably most of the things in here are still You know, within reason, within a category, but not necessarily. The question is, I think we're here to look forward and say, how do we take what exists and update it in some fashion that matches what exists |
| 00:36:05.33 | Unknown | How can it best be used? |
| 00:36:06.90 | Unknown | Well, how can it best be used in an environment that most people would, or in a situation that most people in this community would accept? And we already know that things like, what is it called, liquor barn? Thank you. the Beverages and More, yeah. Beverages and More came before the city and was denied. So we know that probably rezoning the front of Bridgeway to, you know, to... |
| 00:36:24.40 | Adam Krivacsi | Very good. |
| 00:36:25.97 | Unknown | More, yeah. |
| 00:36:39.01 | Unknown | 35 feet high with retail operations would be something that most of the city would like. |
| 00:36:44.01 | Unknown | But is there one other component to that? It's what would it best be used for that the community would accept and which would I guess encourage. Thank you. Yeah. upkeep of the properties and investment in the properties. That component has to be another part of it. |
| 00:37:09.45 | Unknown | Yeah, money doesn't run into it. It should, but it doesn't. |
| 00:37:09.59 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:37:09.66 | Unknown | Money doesn't run into it. |
| 00:37:11.58 | Unknown | Sure. |
| 00:37:12.93 | Unknown | Well, what is the practicality of making it work? |
| 00:37:13.76 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:37:13.81 | Unknown | the |
| 00:37:13.98 | Unknown | Thank you. It seems to me that the question that you're asking is really, Um, We've heard so much about the crumbling infrastructure. so much or the lack thereof of infrastructure in terms of sidewalks and roads and all that sort of good stuff. I'm... And we know about the subsidence and so forth. |
| 00:37:36.89 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:37:39.68 | Unknown | But what we're not really talking about is How much money are we talking about in order to just bring it to a point where it serves those uses that are there now. I mean, you know, just if you accumulated the need for whatever it may be, and Jonathan is there, probably knows some of this at least, what has to happen in order to provide water, sewer, storm drainage, et cetera, and sidewalks, and so on and so forth, throughout the marineship, just to satisfy the needs of Thank you. the current occupancies. um And what would that mean to those current occupancies in terms of who's going to pay for it? particularly in those areas that are that are not city-owned in terms of access and so on. And then, Thank you. After that, what happens to those costs when you choose to go to a higher quote, better use of any of the property, which which is what the property owners all want to do anyway. And those are two different things. So it seems to me that talking about a mix of uses here or there or deciding that something should be here or shouldn't be there is Um... a nice conversation to have, but unfortunately it doesn't get to the underlying... issues. that are Um, So there are the parts of the marine ship that need attention. |
| 00:39:31.74 | Unknown | So does that bring us back to the need for an economic study to understand, well, what's that cost going to be and what kind of use is going to enable it to be paid for by something like, you know, what's come up before, like the special assessment district and so on and so forth? |
| 00:39:39.14 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 00:39:43.96 | Unknown | That's absolutely true. Is that where we are? It's more than the economic study that says, gee, we need to have... |
| 00:39:47.02 | Unknown | Is that where we are? |
| 00:39:54.36 | Unknown | the entertainment industry come in here in order to make this viable, or Thank you. The words that this is... something that caught my attention as well, We've been talking in some of the promotional stuff that we've been getting here about economic vibrancy The general plan refers to economic viability, which is very different. And I think that's got to happen first. We've got to know that. what's viable down there rather than what's vibrant down there. |
| 00:40:30.54 | Unknown | Is a vibrancy just a more optimistic word for a viable? No, it's not. |
| 00:40:33.17 | Unknown | No, it's not. It's a different approach to things. |
| 00:40:42.13 | Unknown | My sense is that You know, I found that there are certain words that seem to provoke a reaction in certain segments of this community, an economic vitality or vibrancy or... one of them, even though it's sort of standard everyday language, used to be in my world, it seems to push some buttons here, and I think that's buried in some history, perhaps the history that Bill's explained to us in the past. |
| 00:41:18.36 | Unknown | But it's also referenced, again, the general plan talks about viability. Yeah. And that's a slightly different thing. |
| 00:41:23.61 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 00:41:28.64 | Unknown | Yeah, I mean, I realize that, you know, for some people, vibrancy or vitality suddenly There's then an immediate jump made, therefore the economic maximization of a particular area is therefore what that means. And I'm not sure it does, but that's quibbles. That's quibbles, okay. I mean, the fact remains that whether it's viability, sustainability, whatever word you want to use, you've got to have |
| 00:41:45.61 | Unknown | Thank you. I'm not. |
| 00:41:48.20 | Unknown | Those quibbles. Okay. |
| 00:41:50.29 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:42:04.09 | Unknown | I mean, basic economic It's gotta work. It's gotta work. I mean, it's gotta, you know, I mean, I've used in the past the, analogy of any living organism. I mean, it's continually growing, redeveloping, shaking off the bits that got worn out. Hopefully, the organism's not that old, so there's bits to replace the bits that wear out. And that's what happens, right? That's vitality, that's growth. I mean, that's necessary. Otherwise, if you don't get that, you get |
| 00:42:32.36 | Unknown | All right. |
| 00:42:34.37 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:42:34.38 | Unknown | that they- |
| 00:42:41.93 | Unknown | decline. |
| 00:42:42.65 | Unknown | Well, could you call it regrowth? I mean, sort of being specific about that area. And the reason why we're all here is there are. |
| 00:42:45.17 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 00:42:48.79 | Unknown | properties that have fallen into disrepair and need to be not necessarily, you know, they need to be redeveloped, rebuilt, however you want to call the extent of the |
| 00:43:00.98 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:43:01.13 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:43:01.15 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:43:01.18 | Unknown | Thank you. investment in the renovation in the property, and that's a regrowth. and whatever that's going to cost, it has to be affordable. towards the end. So then that's not, it doesn't equal maximization and you can certainly have, well I guess, we don't need to get into the terminology again, but no, it doesn't need to be maximization, it just needs to be. |
| 00:43:22.90 | Unknown | Yeah, and I wasn't raising that as an either or kind of condition. It seems to me that the viability has to do with what I said in the first place, which |
| 00:43:30.91 | Unknown | which is... |
| 00:43:31.82 | Unknown | What do you need to do just in order for it to not... go completely downhill. in order to serve that which is already successful down there. |
| 00:43:38.71 | Unknown | IN ORDER TO GET A |
| 00:43:39.08 | Unknown | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 00:43:42.69 | Unknown | That's viability. What do you need to do over and above that and how much is that going to cost to the individual landowners and what is it going to do to the land value. over time. to take it to the level of vibrancy, if you want to use that. |
| 00:43:59.16 | Unknown | Yes. I'm quite happy with the general plan term. |
| 00:44:00.28 | Unknown | I'm quite happy. But no, no, I'm differentiating the two of them because one of them is just making what's their work, and the other one is maybe making something better at work. |
| 00:44:16.53 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. I mean, I think the goal is to make something better work long term as well. You have to think quite a few years ahead. |
| 00:44:23.55 | Unknown | Yeah. me. I think it would be helpful if we sort of at least for now took as given. the fact that there's the waterfront, which is Zone W, and has a whole bunch of uses because we want the waterfront to be doing waterfront things, right? And then we have the bulk of the rest of it, forget all the other odds and ends, but the bulk of the rest of it is industrial, and both the general plan And the Mariners-ship specific plan says we want the industrials to remain industrial and we want the waterfront water uses to remain water uses. So if you give that as a given. If you took that as a given, We can get to eventually whether we should, some of the industrial uses should be in the waterfront or whatever, or should there be some new uses coming to either. Right now, if you look at what's allowed in the waterfront, right, which you'll find now in this document that Lilly's distributed. I think it's under marine uses. Is that the primary set of uses, Lily, that's in the W zone? Um, let me look. |
| 00:45:51.74 | Unknown | So the document I just distributed is the, NXV, right? Yeah, and that's the definition. |
| 00:45:54.54 | Unknown | That looks speedy, right? So page 84. Maritime uses. |
| 00:46:09.64 | Unknown | is one, two, that list of activities is I believe the list of activities that the Marineship Specific Plan believes should be W zones |
| 00:46:31.05 | Unknown | Well, actually, it goes on. Once the list ends, it goes on for about five more categories, four more categories. |
| 00:46:37.74 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 00:46:44.52 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:46:44.54 | Unknown | Well, I mean, I would want to, Rev, if I may,. |
| 00:46:44.79 | Unknown | I mean, |
| 00:46:48.52 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 00:46:52.00 | Unknown | Yeah, I think I would want to ask – go back to the emergency specific plan goals. My thought was to kind of go through these and talk a little bit about, well, what still makes sense. And I'll kind of throw out what seems to make sense to me in terms of the conversation that we're having. |
| 00:46:59.89 | Unknown | Oh, wow. |
| 00:47:10.15 | Unknown | You know, the first goal, preserving and enhancing maritime. |
| 00:47:12.89 | Unknown | The only reason, I think that's a great idea. Let's do that. |
| 00:47:15.50 | Unknown | Yep. |
| 00:47:17.31 | Unknown | The reason why I think at some point this group needs to get its arms around, what are the uses that we allow in the water in the Zofia Zone, what are the uses that we allow in the Industrial Zone, |
| 00:47:23.59 | Unknown | was the one. |
| 00:47:28.68 | Unknown | is that, again, there's a lot of misunderstanding in the community about what those uses are and what they're allowed. |
| 00:47:34.32 | Unknown | Bye. I was going to touch on that a little bit, too. So number one, we're going to enhance the maritime history and character of the marineship. And I think that in the conversation that we're still having, that's still quite important to the community today and this group, too. I think we can all kind of agree to that. I will ask the question, so maritime uses, do they need to be economically viable? vital? And so I think that's a discussion point. Number two, preserve and enhance the industrial character and use of the marine ship. So think about that in the context of today. And and the examples of kind of some of the uses that are in that area. Is that really? So relevant. And, you know, why is that relevant today? Does it make sense in terms of today's reality, how it's used, you know, perhaps even thinking about the future from the industrial use of it? You know, I guess I think about them in sort of two different ways. You know, the waterfront use, yeah, that's still a goal. Figure it out, figure out what that means. Later on we'll talk about, well, what is the working waterfront definition, as you were starting to hint to in page 84. And how does that get defined? Does that need to be economically vital on its own? And then the rest of the marine ship, which I think they both – I feel like in order to make progress they need to be separated areas. There's a waterfront which has much more of a, I guess, deep-seated passion around it in terms of what's acceptable for the community. And I think we agree upon that. It's a pretty, yeah, waterfront is a precious area. And the rest of the Marin ship, why does it need to be the rest of the Marin ship? Why does it need to be defined by the specific plan and all those uses anymore? Does it still need that? |
| 00:49:34.93 | Unknown | Does anybody have any comments about that? |
| 00:49:38.52 | Unknown | I think you hit the nail on the head. Thank you. I think if you look at the waterfront, the W zone, you could think of all the marine uses that you want in there, and that's what we decided we would like. I can't imagine some other use in there that would help the waterfront. Maybe somebody else can. I mean, what would you put in there other than marine use that would help the working waterfront? Can anybody think of any use you would put in there that doesn't fit the descriptions and the uses that are listed that would make it more viable or would make it meet the requirement of keeping our maritime heritage and enhancing the working waterfront? What use could you put in there other than those around that list? |
| 00:50:38.39 | Unknown | The last item on the list is sewer ejection systems. |
| 00:50:41.63 | Unknown | Thank you. I'm sorry. Thank you. |
| 00:50:43.93 | Unknown | Is that what you were thinking, Tony? That's why you joined the committee, right? Well, I don't see recreational on there. |
| 00:50:43.96 | Unknown | because I was like, The Press. Yeah. |
| 00:50:47.96 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 00:50:51.45 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 00:50:54.54 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:50:56.28 | Unknown | And yet that's something that's kind of an important use these days, and that's access to the waterfront. |
| 00:50:56.51 | Unknown | That's what I'm saying. And that's access to the waterfront. For clarity, I mean, that's definition of marine service boats. Do you also want to include marine industrial land water on 78 or not? Thank you, yes. |
| 00:51:12.45 | Unknown | Lily could remind us, marine industrial is allowed in the industrial, and is it also allowed in the W? |
| 00:51:21.62 | Unknown | Definitely in the industrial. I don't think the W. you |
| 00:51:27.40 | Unknown | Can I also can I refer the committee to if you want to take a look at page 22 of the specific plan? That's where the waterfront zone starts and |
| 00:51:33.51 | Margaret Badger | It's where the Yeah. |
| 00:51:36.37 | Unknown | you And there's some narrative there. |
| 00:51:39.50 | Margaret Badger | Yeah. |
| 00:51:40.07 | Unknown | The the friendship specific plan intent is in the second paragraph on the second half of the page under the waterfront zone. |
| 00:51:52.34 | Unknown | And then specific uses are also listed on page 24. A second paragraph where it begins, unless otherwise noted, or unless noted otherwise. Typical permitted uses include. |
| 00:52:07.54 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 00:52:20.67 | Unknown | So no on marine industrial. |
| 00:52:22.66 | Unknown | No, marine industrialism, the guy. |
| 00:52:24.70 | Unknown | it. |
| 00:52:28.50 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:52:28.52 | Unknown | President Obama. |
| 00:52:33.48 | Unknown | Um, public offer a comment. Anybody object? |
| 00:52:38.34 | Unknown | I don't have trouble. There it is. Kind of public terms there. |
| 00:52:46.09 | Unknown | Let's keep it brief. |
| 00:52:56.97 | Sandra Bushmaker | that you're suffering through the complexities that have affected people for years and relationships between these documents and what really prevails and I would suggest that maybe you return to the basics to save yourself some time meaning first of all your ownership 101 showed the over granularity level of detail that is a main problem with the specific plan. And perhaps you ought to be thinking more about what are the historic uses, what are the general concepts? What are the industrial kind of uses in general concepts? In other words, I'm going back to looking at the general plan approach rather than modifying the specific plan. Because I think you're already concluding in your conversation |
| 00:53:31.28 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:53:46.63 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 00:53:54.97 | Sandra Bushmaker | All right. Thank you. Thank you. that may develop that are both currently to be preserved and in the future, you need to then be thinking of within the general principles of the general plan how the zoning ordinance implements those general principles and then subject to easier modification and adaptation later as new developments you have in the thought of today unfold in the future. So I'd suggest that I'm getting involved in trying to figure out the relationship between all these documents and stuff. If you replace the question, developments you have in the thought of today unfold in the future. I would suggest that I would be getting involved in trying to figure out the relationship between all these documents and stuff that the regulators have been frustrated with for years. Focus your attention on the process of developing |
| 00:54:35.96 | Unknown | Okay, thank you. So basically don't fall down the same old rabbit hole. Here's kind of what I mean I would suggest that we do and this is my suggestion, just keep things moving because we need to kind of keep things moving and this could be what we do or we could modify the idea. I would suggest that we focus on Well, a couple things. And I think the most important thing is to focus on the definition of the working waterfront. And in terms of both its uses, the area of it, and also how to actually kind of make it work. What's going to make it viable for it to be a working waterfront, given that there are some economic challenges of, you know, when you so tightly define the usage even to just maritime, you know, things change. You look at, you know, some of the businesses that were in the marine ship when the plan was done, and commercial fishing is not there, and it was part of that. So I think we kind of need to sort of look at that in a separate sort of a lens. It's almost maybe – I'm guessing it's a little bit more like how do you preserve that as opposed to how do you, I guess, incentivize vitality or however you want to put it. And then once – so we do that, and then we take a look at – well, the rest of the MarinShip area and, you know, I think what Mike was talking about with a little bit of what Bill was talking about, well, what makes sense in terms of uses there And in that area, with an eye to how it's used today, how it could be opened up for uses in the future, how do you make that? And I think that does need to be economically viable, vital, however you want to call it. So then the question is, well, how do you Okay, let's talk about uses. How do we figure out what are the right uses? You know, is an economic study required in order to help define that? And then how do you get there? Is it an update to the specific plan? Is it an update to the general plan? Is it a... update to the specific plan that then becomes part of the general plan because it is a lot of hard work You know, just to do that. There's a number of options there. And I think another question to sort of look at, too, is, you know, this whole marineship area. You know, what requires more looking at than, you know, is it just zone two? You know, zone one's pretty well defined. You know, zone three is relatively well defined. So, you know, concentrate the energy. So this is kind of how I'm thinking about, you know, breaking it up. First waterfront, then everything else, then different zones, and then how to do it. comment on that as a potential way forward. |
| 00:57:42.71 | Unknown | Or are we done and Adam can go home? |
| 00:57:46.39 | Unknown | No, we're not. Let me say that as much as it's fun to do, we should probably drop the parlor game of blatant violations because it is what it is. So then if we take that off the table, then what's going to be useful going forward? And I just wrote down some things. It seems to me that we've got a couple of alternatives, maybe three. One is to leave it alone, do nothing, and move on and have another life. The other is to... |
| 00:57:46.76 | Unknown | No, we're not. |
| 00:58:17.02 | Unknown | make some recommendations that could carry forward. And one of two categories seems appropriate to me. One is that we come up with some ideas, refine some things, and turn it around and give it back to the city manager and the council and say we believe it all ought to be incorporated in a new general plan. And here's some of our ideas about how that ought to change. The other way is to look at the specific plan as it now exists Thank you. ought to be incorporated in a new general plan. And here's some of our ideas about how that ought to change. The other way is to look at the specific plan as it now exists and rewrite or refine or redo that specific plan. Because you can't have a specific plan |
| 00:58:35.67 | Unknown | Um... |
| 00:58:54.13 | Unknown | either rolled into a general plan or you can have it as a separate continuing separate document under the general plan. That would involve also looking at the general plan currently and seeing what it actually says about And in fairness, I haven't looked at it for a long, long time. So what does it say about marineship? Does it just completely punt it over? I don't know. Does it? |
| 00:59:14.28 | Unknown | No. That's the document I put together, which is that I went through the general plan and pulled every reference to |
| 00:59:14.95 | Unknown | No, I don't think so. |
| 00:59:20.13 | Unknown | Right. to the marine ship plan. So I think that we could be very useful to this whole |
| 00:59:22.18 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:59:31.14 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:59:31.24 | Unknown | thing if we worked on redefining, reassessing, removing, suggested removals, reassignments, and additions to the Marinship Pacific Plan so that we'd come up with a new living document that kind of reflects 2014 going forward as opposed to trying to define what people were thinking about 30 years ago in this plan here. It seems that that's lost its useful life for us. And it's confusing at best. I mean, they were looking at a whole different marinship than we're looking at today. Some of these buildings weren't even built yet. So I think that that's where I think we should focus our effort and maybe provide something that would really be quite forward, if you will. |
| 01:00:02.00 | Unknown | It's a great day. |
| 01:00:06.07 | Unknown | Mm-mm. |
| 01:00:09.90 | Unknown | much. |
| 01:00:15.91 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:00:24.97 | Unknown | Last week... uh, Bill made the point that we should get away from the parcel specific nature of anything that we do. I paraphrase what I said. |
| 01:00:40.59 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:00:40.69 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:00:40.76 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:00:45.17 | Unknown | And then I said, well that means then that you really are doing a complete redo or because if you're not gonna do it on a parcel by parcel basis, that takes half of this stuff away, right? And so I think you've gotta decide, step away from that and define the uses or define what we want generally in a waterfront zone, generally in an industrial zone, recognizing that in the industrial zone we should build on what's there now, however it got there, because I'm sure we're not going to start kicking out all the unpermitted uses at this point. |
| 01:01:27.83 | Unknown | you |
| 01:01:32.60 | Unknown | Right, so if we're going to define the W zone and we're saying the W zone is what we're defining as the waterfront, the industrial zone is to promote the industrial uses, whether or not marine related, then... and we're not gonna do it on a parcel by parcel basis. So I think, That is something we've got to decide. Are we going to do it on a parcel by parcel basis or is that out the window? Because if that's out the window, that partly defines which route we take. |
| 01:02:10.42 | Unknown | I'd say I would agree that we wouldn't go on a parcel-by-parcel basis, although that doesn't mean that we still couldn't start from the Marinship-specific plan. It has planning zones, planning areas. We could change those for that model. You know, we have to start somewhere. For me, the wisdom of the marineship-specific plans contained in the 21 goals. And I think at some point, if we were to look at those, you know, we need to put some stakes in the ground about where we're going. And I find that to be a lot of wisdom. I think there's going to be a lot of agreement on that. And then from there, I don't think we can go parcel by parcel. We have to redefine what they do. For example, even in definitions, I believe Arkez is an eye, right? And they're on the water. I mean, so. Part of its eye. Part of its eye. |
| 01:02:53.60 | Unknown | So, but it's... |
| 01:02:56.47 | Unknown | All right. |
| 01:02:56.54 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:02:56.57 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:02:56.61 | Unknown | So, |
| 01:02:56.72 | Unknown | Yes, yes, yeah. But we have to take a look at the way they do it. But for me, again, we could start in a lot of different places. We could define working waterfront. The only thing is working waterfront would be a whole new concept. |
| 01:02:56.81 | Unknown | Yes. |
| 01:03:09.65 | Unknown | And somehow, I think a lot of the concepts that were defined in the emergency specific plan are valuable. We need to take them, update them, move forward with them. How about just the phone? |
| 01:03:19.27 | Unknown | How about just the founding waterfront? Thank you. |
| 01:03:20.94 | Unknown | I'm sorry. |
| 01:03:20.97 | Unknown | I'm not sure. How about just waterfront? |
| 01:03:22.44 | Unknown | Yeah, that's true because it's not all, I guess, what is working here? |
| 01:03:30.09 | Unknown | Yeah, the problem with working waterfronts is just a catchphrase, is Pontarelli. points out in his little document, your working waterfronts are what you want them to be. You describe them yourself. They're unique to each individual city. Oil and gas is probably out. Mineral harvesting is probably out. Things like that. Shipping is probably out. Shipping is probably out. So, I mean, I think that it would be useful perhaps to redefine what we consider to be things that ought to be in a W zone. And that would be really pretty... |
| 01:03:43.79 | Unknown | you |
| 01:03:43.86 | Unknown | individual city. |
| 01:03:51.74 | Unknown | Shipping? Yeah. Shipping's filled, yeah. Shipping. |
| 01:03:53.93 | Unknown | these are. |
| 01:04:10.01 | Unknown | It could be pretty conclusive and inclusive and exclusive for things like oil refining. So, I mean, that would be a good, maybe the easiest starting place, by the way, and then move on to the I-Zone or whatever else. |
| 01:04:12.20 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:04:23.60 | Unknown | in the I-Zone or wherever else. Redefine what it is. But maybe... |
| 01:04:26.03 | Unknown | Yeah. But maybe we – just one other thing. Maybe we don't define it as – going forward as an eye zone. It's rather a commercial zone or some other thing which will probably scare half the people in town. But nonetheless, that more is inclusive than just eye. Eye is – as we see is violated consistently with uses that are not eye. So maybe it's a better – there's a better nomenclature for it. |
| 01:04:43.36 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:04:50.87 | Unknown | Is the general? the general step-by-step plan that I outlined, does that make sense, or should we modify it? I'd love to have a – basically kind of an agenda for the stuff we go through so we're not – don't keep talking around the circles. So the idea was, you know, again, waterfront, what is it, basically? And then there's some other questions that will follow. And then there's the rest of the marine ship, I-zone, what is it, in the most general sense, followed by once you do that, how do you figure out the best use? We'll have a lot of discussion about that. I think the question about, So I think there's four major questions, and maybe that's enough for now. You know, waterfront, what is it? The rest of the Marinship I-Zone, what is it, and how do you figure out what it is? The third would be, you know, do we need to focus just on specific zones? And then the fourth is, well, how do you do it once you get a little bit more meat on it? Is it part of a specific plan update? Is it part of a general plan update, et cetera? So that seemed like a good outline in terms of which to work and start to work in. We agree with that? Okay. So we'll use that as a model going forward and then we can, |
| 01:06:09.91 | Unknown | Good. |
| 01:06:10.13 | Unknown | If it makes sense, we can just jump right in the waterfront. do that. |
| 01:06:19.34 | Unknown | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 01:06:20.84 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:06:20.93 | Unknown | Thank you. you |
| 01:06:21.03 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:06:21.15 | Unknown | you |
| 01:06:21.38 | Unknown | Yes. Confirm with Lily. This is also the current zoning map, right? Showing the waterfront is in W. The W zone is in blue up there. Correct. Yeah. And the I zone is in the brown. Correct. Right. |
| 01:06:34.02 | Unknown | Correct. Yeah. |
| 01:06:39.81 | Unknown | correct. Bye. |
| 01:06:41.72 | Unknown | Oh. |
| 01:06:41.75 | Unknown | I did. |
| 01:06:41.94 | Unknown | Thank you. The only difference between the zoning map that's on the screen and the map that's in the Marinship-specific plan is where it says – the green area where it says public park, where Marinship Park is, that's designated as P for public in the Marinship-specific plan. The two public institutional zoned properties – the Army Corps, the Bay Model, the largest one there, that's designated as P, which is also public in the Marineship Specific Plan. And the post office site, which is over by the CS, which is Molly Stone's, that's on the map right there as PI, that's actually shown in the specific plan as CS. But the I zone and the W zone as shown on this map is identical to what's in the MarinShip Pacific plan. |
| 01:07:34.72 | Unknown | Okay. So if we're going to use our zoning and this, then the waterfront, at least as a first start, is what's in blue up there. |
| 01:07:46.79 | Unknown | How much of that is water? |
| 01:07:50.11 | Unknown | Well, there's a thin line there. A whole bunch of water. Yeah, that's what I mean. |
| 01:07:52.71 | Unknown | Yeah, that's what I mean. |
| 01:07:53.72 | Unknown | But as part of the discussion also need to be, well, does the waterfront zoning line, does that make sense? Should that move too? |
| 01:07:55.48 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:07:55.49 | Unknown | Hello, Rana. |
| 01:07:56.03 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:07:56.15 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:07:56.17 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:07:56.20 | Unknown | Right. |
| 01:08:02.41 | Unknown | That's quite what I think I asked a long time ago. Where should that line really be? And how is it defined? I mean, on the map, it's just a straight line right through the middle of our kids. |
| 01:08:03.04 | Unknown | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 01:08:06.97 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 01:08:11.54 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:08:11.56 | Unknown | MAP. |
| 01:08:17.84 | Unknown | and just behind Marina Plaza's office building, the areas that they just did a lot longer adjustment on. Anyway. |
| 01:08:18.78 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:08:26.90 | Unknown | All right. Okay. So that's just something else on the list that we need to walk through. I think it makes more sense. |
| 01:08:30.49 | Unknown | I think it makes more sense. Question, Steph, is there a better waterfront map that shows actually where the, |
| 01:08:36.47 | Unknown | You can actually see it on this map. I'm not sure if you can see it from where you are. I can see it on my screen. I might be able to adjust the light, but see where my mouse is right here? |
| 01:08:44.18 | Unknown | here. I'm gonna make it up. Sorry. |
| 01:08:45.90 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:08:46.58 | Unknown | That's the shoreline. |
| 01:08:50.49 | Unknown | Thank you. Cool. Can we actually tell it from any documents that we have? |
| 01:08:56.50 | Unknown | Yes. |
| 01:08:56.73 | Unknown | Thanks. |
| 01:08:56.97 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:08:56.99 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:08:57.04 | Unknown | Thank you. This big colorful one is right there. Yeah, but I... Here it is, here. That still doesn't... I mean, it's really hard. It's really difficult to read. And what are you looking for? |
| 01:08:59.54 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:08:59.64 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:08:59.65 | Unknown | The colorful one. |
| 01:09:00.85 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:09:00.89 | Unknown | Yeah, but I... |
| 01:09:01.80 | Unknown | Here it is. |
| 01:09:02.57 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:09:04.02 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:09:04.14 | Unknown | That still does not. I mean, it's really hard. It's really difficult to read. So I would suggest somebody take a really dark pen and just outline the water line. Maybe we could do that ourselves. |
| 01:09:08.50 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:09:08.65 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:09:08.68 | Unknown | have somebody take a really dark pen and just align the water line? |
| 01:09:14.71 | Unknown | Well, I mean, I think that once we kind of get to it, I think it's also more important you understand the geography of it, not just that line. |
| 01:09:18.44 | Unknown | Yeah. No, I understand, but it would be interesting to just look at the map and suddenly see that everything below the black line is water, everything above it is land, okay? You can't do that from this path. |
| 01:09:21.17 | Unknown | No, I understand. |
| 01:09:26.84 | Unknown | . |
| 01:09:27.02 | Adam Politzer | You can't do that from this person. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:09:30.89 | Unknown | I have that, yeah, but it's still... |
| 01:09:30.97 | Adam Politzer | I have that. Thank you. Thank you. I'm just saying if you wanted to color the line now, you could. |
| 01:09:37.39 | Unknown | Yeah. Yeah. Okay. |
| 01:09:42.28 | Unknown | Do we have crayons, Lily? It's all done. Yeah. All right. |
| 01:09:43.82 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:09:44.03 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yeah. All right. I'm going to mention 101 graphic. We have an aerial. Sort of. Yeah. |
| 01:09:49.67 | Unknown | Sort of. That's really small. All right. I seem to be the only one who's concerned about that, so I'll move on. I mean, I guess I'm not as |
| 01:09:59.34 | Unknown | I mean, I guess I'm not as concerned about it because it doesn't really tell me what's where. |
| 01:10:07.04 | Unknown | Maybe we can do that, something for next time. I'm jumping into what is the waterfront in terms of our definition of uses. That makes sense for Sausalito today. |
| 01:10:18.24 | Unknown | I think it's a good place to look at it geographically. I mean, then uses. It would be good if at some point someone could find that out and have a map that we could read. The second part, again, I think we'll probably should look at |
| 01:10:22.85 | Unknown | I need to go. |
| 01:10:36.99 | Unknown | If we hadn't zoned this before, what would the line be? Is there a certain level from BCDC's point of view? Would you adopt some other definition and have those two in front of us as we're taking a look at this, and then we look at the historical... |
| 01:10:46.34 | Unknown | Okay. Why not take a fresh look at what's W? |
| 01:10:54.35 | Unknown | Yeah. Yeah. And then we could probably be restrained from that, but it'd be good to at least know that theoretically, and then we could make adjustments in it. That makes sense. |
| 01:11:06.72 | Unknown | Okay, so let's make a note of that. |
| 01:11:14.15 | Unknown | You should get a really big version of this. |
| 01:11:18.64 | Unknown | So Lily, some notes, I guess, could we get? Bill, could you show that? So anyway, we could do a blow up. |
| 01:11:25.02 | Unknown | It was. It's just a big version of the aerial. |
| 01:11:31.28 | Unknown | It's just a real focus well off little line so we can sort of look at defined properties. And then also, I'm going to think from the BCDC perspective of what constitutes shoreline and different requirements from BCDC's perspective. |
| 01:11:33.34 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:11:47.00 | Unknown | AND I'M GOING TO BE and the FEMA floodplain. which is different. |
| 01:11:54.44 | Unknown | And the fact |
| 01:11:54.70 | Unknown | And the fact that BCDC has established a, yeah, well that's their sphere of influence, but what BCDC has actually done. |
| 01:12:10.78 | Unknown | Jonathan, is there any chance you can enlighten us really quickly? DCDC and FEMA floodplates? Sorry. I know you're having a nice time there by yourself. |
| 01:12:16.87 | Jonathon Goldman | you |
| 01:12:16.94 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:12:16.96 | Jonathon Goldman | It's just... BCDC's jurisdiction is primarily a 100-foot band from what's probably mean higher high water inland. And then they certainly have jurisdiction over submerged lands as well. I don't know how far out that comes. And then we can provide copies. Lily's actually on the Maroon Map at the moment. It's not difficult to produce a map that combines the shading of zoning with aerial photography and then at least the preliminary |
| 01:12:31.84 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:12:31.96 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:12:32.03 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:12:58.30 | Unknown | Oh. |
| 01:13:07.60 | Jonathon Goldman | boundaries of the area special flood hazard, 100-year floodplain, that are about to become effective. We can also show the old ones. So that information is available. And if the steering committee would like to have graphics like that, certainly for the next meeting, we can certainly provide all kinds of different things in different formats. |
| 01:13:19.75 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:19.77 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:19.82 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:19.85 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:19.87 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:19.93 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:19.97 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:19.98 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:20.02 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:20.07 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:13:32.52 | Unknown | Okay. I think we would like to see that. Thank you. |
| 01:13:37.18 | Unknown | Is there just a question? I think I've seen this, but is there just one map which shows nothing but W? just shows exactly where W begins and ends. |
| 01:13:49.38 | Unknown | It's in the... Thank you. |
| 01:13:52.00 | Unknown | It's in here. |
| 01:13:53.16 | Unknown | It's in here. Plan? Yeah, it's in the specific plan. |
| 01:13:55.68 | Unknown | Okay. |
| 01:13:58.34 | Unknown | But just to carry on this business about what the limitations are, between BCDC and NOAA, the Coastal Services Center has developed this. plan for the San Francisco Bay Area that addresses 16 inches of sea level rise in 50 years and 55 inches in 100 years. And those two lines are part of what I think is called the art project. Am I right about that? Which is adapting to rising tides in the Bay Area. |
| 01:14:18.59 | Unknown | to know. |
| 01:14:18.68 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:14:37.36 | Unknown | Mm. |
| 01:14:39.36 | Unknown | So, some of that whether it's believable or not, or whether it happens or not, probably ought to come into play when we talk about development on the waterfront. |
| 01:14:55.97 | Unknown | . Yeah. |
| 01:15:00.04 | Unknown | Okay, getting back to waterfront. And just to kind of start things off, go back to the, you know, when we did the inventory to try to do some categorizations. There's – and I'll just kind of read off the list that I got to so far. And we can see if, you know, do we want these things to stay in? Do we add things? So we had waterfront recreation. water-related recreational uses. |
| 01:15:25.21 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:15:26.02 | Unknown | Makes sense. |
| 01:15:27.66 | Unknown | They're obviously water dependent. |
| 01:15:31.36 | Unknown | Marine related retail. |
| 01:15:37.41 | Unknown | I don't think so. I don't think that's... I mean, that is... Marine-related retail... |
| 01:15:39.73 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:15:39.96 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:15:46.75 | Unknown | in general, I don't think needs access to the water. |
| 01:15:52.67 | Unknown | It definitely needs access to main thoroughfares and parking, neither of which would be compatible with the water. |
| 01:15:52.70 | Unknown | How's it? |
| 01:15:57.40 | Unknown | Right. Neither, neither, and trucking their products and goods in and out and so on and so forth. |
| 01:16:02.93 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:16:06.95 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:16:06.96 | Unknown | but does it enhance the vibrancy of a marine area to be able to, okay, I'm going to get off my dock and I'm going to walk to buy you know, some new fittings for the boat. |
| 01:16:19.31 | Unknown | So maybe there ought to be a Y zone, WI zone. Which is, we don't know which side it goes, but it should be. |
| 01:16:21.86 | Unknown | I suppose, yeah. |
| 01:16:22.96 | Unknown | This is... |
| 01:16:24.11 | Unknown | I don't know. |
| 01:16:24.44 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:16:24.75 | Unknown | All right. |
| 01:16:24.82 | Unknown | but it does. There's only one problem with that. There's only a handful of places that you can actually bring your boat and dock it anywhere and get off your boat and walk to anything. That's right. Yeah. So we have not made the waterfront compatible to visiting boats. |
| 01:16:34.77 | Unknown | That's right. |
| 01:16:35.16 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:16:42.53 | Unknown | That might increase the time of |
| 01:16:47.16 | Unknown | That could do that. But just so you know, you can't get off your boat here very easily. Oh, yeah. |
| 01:16:53.06 | Unknown | Well, yeah, and that I think is one of the major issues that has not been addressed, and that is we're talking about all this accessibility on the ground side, What about the accessibility on the water side? And that's how do you get to the land? |
| 01:17:07.07 | Unknown | Well, we also talked about the goal being, you know, the original goal of Mauritius Pacific Plan is to not increase traffic. So by not allowing waterfront-related retail, marine-related retail, we're increasing car traffic. Because there's no public transportation, so you've got to jump in a car if you want to go fix your boat. |
| 01:17:24.91 | Unknown | Retail is different. I think that's a district. But by the way, the emergency specific plan specifically says in goal 14 about providing public access, including limited amounts of temporary public small boat tie up space. Right. None. None. Zero. And it's mentioned in a couple other places. |
| 01:17:25.03 | Unknown | The details are different. |
| 01:17:26.04 | Unknown | But by the way, the emergency |
| 01:17:36.72 | Unknown | Nothing. None. Zero. |
| 01:17:41.43 | Unknown | Okay, so we should probably add that into our definition, right? Small boat tie-up? |
| 01:17:51.55 | Unknown | It's, yeah, you know, But small boat tie-up is only one part of it. One part. What about visitor boats? Yeah. I mean, that will raise hackles because that would certainly increase the... You know, the need for a Marina del Rey sort of botel. Tourn. You know, all those kinds of good things. |
| 01:18:15.90 | Unknown | and all those things. The T word comes up. |
| 01:18:18.69 | Unknown | I'm sorry. Yeah, on the other hand, on the other hand, |
| 01:18:19.65 | Unknown | other hand. |
| 01:18:21.95 | Unknown | That's what first class marinas up and down the West Coast have. Are we a first class marina or are we just a bedroom for boats or whatever you want to call it? |
| 01:18:24.78 | Unknown | Yeah. Thank you. |
| 01:18:30.77 | Unknown | parking lot. |
| 01:18:30.86 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:18:30.89 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:18:31.06 | Unknown | Thank you a lot. |
| 01:18:31.33 | Unknown | That's what Chuck Brown calls it. I mean, by the way, I started with waterfront parcels shall provide approved public access to and from the water, including that. So, I mean, they were pretty clear, and we strayed the other way. I mean, we sometimes think they were more restrictive. They actually were more open. |
| 01:18:31.51 | Unknown | That's what you chugged out. |
| 01:18:32.98 | Unknown | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 01:18:33.17 | Unknown | I mean, by the way, |
| 01:18:33.83 | Unknown | start looking. |
| 01:18:48.79 | Unknown | Unless it's changed, there's only a handful of places you can get off. |
| 01:18:49.32 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:18:49.37 | Unknown | Let's go. |
| 01:18:49.57 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:18:49.60 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:18:49.64 | Unknown | Thank you. I would go with the plans definition there in terms of encouraging access in that way. |
| 01:18:58.89 | Unknown | So should water from access be part of the maritime use? Thank you. I would think it's not a meme. It has to be. Waterfront Access 4. |
| 01:19:02.45 | Unknown | It has to be. Well, |
| 01:19:04.71 | Unknown | All right. |
| 01:19:06.19 | Unknown | Both ways. |
| 01:19:07.10 | Unknown | For the public, but not necessarily. That doesn't mean a boat tie-up, or does it? |
| 01:19:11.29 | Unknown | Well it says to and from the water, I'm just reading from here, we can find it, obviously we're obviously, we could change it, but if we're sticking to what's in the plan, which when we roll things out, it's always nice that we've stayed, it says, You know, waterfront parcels, I assume that means all of them, shall provide... approved public access to and from the water, including limited amounts of water. |
| 01:19:29.97 | Unknown | Thank you. case. |
| 01:19:31.00 | Unknown | Small but tiny. |
| 01:19:31.98 | Unknown | And that would include recreational uses like seat trackering. |
| 01:19:36.35 | Unknown | Right. Well, what a recreation. So small boat tie-up, but back to the question of visitor boat tie-up, is that something we want to include? Tony, how do you feel about that? |
| 01:19:46.32 | Unknown | Well, you know, it's sort of like an adverb. |
| 01:19:48.70 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:19:49.04 | Unknown | Do the microphone. Thanks. Thanks. |
| 01:19:49.14 | Unknown | to the microphone. Thanks. |
| 01:19:53.09 | Unknown | for Roche, it's the Roche Motel, where Roche go in and they don't come out, you know? And? You know, I think it's sort of unfriendly not to allow visitor boats a place to come in. I think if you want, on the one hand we say you want vitality, and on the other hand we say we don't want anybody. |
| 01:20:00.70 | Unknown | Yeah. Bye. |
| 01:20:12.24 | Unknown | Well, how can you have vitality if nobody's there? |
| 01:20:16.60 | Unknown | Well, Schumacher has it. I mean, there's a couple of really big bow tie-ups that they have that, you know, you just want to guess where they're from. |
| 01:20:21.59 | Unknown | Yeah, but I think in general, if it's well done in the right place, having a place where a boat can tie up is a good idea. I really do. And it may not be the boat itself. It may be somebody rowing in in a dinghy, you know, which is less of an impact. And we really have an unfriendly community in terms of visiting boats. There's really very, there's no really well-defined place for them to come in. I think there should be at least one or two or maybe even three. |
| 01:20:56.40 | Unknown | Well, three locations? |
| 01:20:58.83 | Unknown | Yeah, I think that wouldn't hurt. Yeah, at least to have dingy tie up, because a lot of these boats, of course, will come ashore. They're not going to bring their big boat. It'll be an anchor out there. |
| 01:21:08.47 | Unknown | but I mean visitor boats I up Schumacher's got at least three I think we have some side ties there |
| 01:21:12.57 | Unknown | They have some side ties there. I don't think Sausagea Marina has one that anybody knows about. You know, you can come in and sort of take your chances. But I think, yeah, Schoonmaker does. I mean, Clipper does, actually. They have some side ties. |
| 01:21:14.17 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:21:31.87 | Unknown | I, The Yacht Club has got a reciprocal club tie up, I believe. |
| 01:21:37.24 | Unknown | The Yacht Club is a little bit dicey. You can, I guess, tie up there, I have, depending on whether you get permission or not. I don't know. I don't, all of these places are not really well designated or advertised in any way. And I think most of the people out there have a hard time deciding where to come in. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea. I think some peer, a good peer, a good well maintained peer, maybe one or two actually wouldn't be a bad idea. I do think access from visiting boats is not a bad idea, although I realize there's some controversy. Some people don't want people in, but I think it's really a mistake. There's not that many boats, first of all. I don't think you're going to get inundated with rows of people coming in on yachts. I mean, the typical yacht might have two people, four people maximum, so it's not going to be a huge inundation of people. And I think it would increase the vitality of our marine business, all the marine businesses, whether they're retail or whatever. And another thing too, the fuel dock as it now stands, which is an essential part of yachting, is a disaster. It's very difficult to get in and you're taking it to lock your hands. There's a lot of current in there and you can smash into boats and so on. |
| 01:21:37.26 | Unknown | I'm sorry. |
| 01:23:10.86 | Unknown | Is that the one big fish? |
| 01:23:12.75 | Unknown | Yeah, that's a very problematic fuel dock. |
| 01:23:13.95 | Unknown | That's a very, Thank you. |
| 01:23:16.18 | Unknown | See you all done. |
| 01:23:18.34 | Unknown | It's a Chevron. |
| 01:23:19.28 | Unknown | But how many other fuel docks are there? Just one. That's it. Only one in the whole. Okay. And it's very badly. So fuel dock is one of the uses then that we should have to list. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. |
| 01:23:21.26 | Unknown | Just one, that's it. There's only one. And it's very badly Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. |
| 01:23:30.76 | Unknown | Having adequate services for visiting vessels, it goes beyond the marine ship. I mean, it goes down the whole central waterfront. It goes all the way to the Diaklub. And it's an issue that's come up. over and over again, and not only is it for visiting |
| 01:23:49.56 | Unknown | not only. |
| 01:23:51.53 | Unknown | Um, visiting yachts, visiting sailboats, whatever it may be. But you have to recognize the fact that it also addresses the anchor routes as well. |
| 01:24:03.16 | Unknown | Liberal board, sure. Yep. For sure it does. |
| 01:24:07.12 | Unknown | Just sort of, okay, just sort of kind of keep going on the definition. Here's probably some easier ones. |
| 01:24:15.95 | Unknown | Boat repair, does that include shipyard or does that include smaller operations too? |
| 01:24:22.28 | Adam Krivacsi | of? |
| 01:24:22.56 | Unknown | Thank you. The one thing I would say is that in the the Marinship Plan when they define, well they define it on their industrial, but I mean the definition, they have non-polluting, low intensity, and low traffic generating. I think those are all good factors about which of the kind of marine industrial, I mean that's right in the plan. And we don't want to have some huge, you know, polluting type of marine industry, but we want those that are exactly what the plan says. |
| 01:24:34.02 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:24:50.93 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 01:24:54.43 | Unknown | Okay, so we've got... |
| 01:24:54.48 | Unknown | Thank you. I would have those qualifiers on. |
| 01:24:59.52 | Unknown | low input. |
| 01:24:59.84 | Unknown | When you say, you know, well, boat repair would probably be within those, I would imagine. THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 01:25:05.39 | Unknown | We'll put |
| 01:25:05.55 | Unknown | Well, Bill, I've got |
| 01:25:06.15 | Unknown | repair I've got. I guess I would call it |
| 01:25:08.89 | Unknown | I guess I would call it boat repair services, and that's a lot of different things. That's diving services. That's other kinds of repair. That's rigging, perhaps. I don't know what else falls under that. |
| 01:25:22.12 | Unknown | One of the problems that we're going to have is two of our biggest tenants that are on the working waterfront, probably the two biggest ones, Bayside Boatworks and Aquamazon, you could look upon those as being polluters very definitely unless their facilities are upgraded. And that's true of all the marine railways, that we're going to have to maybe bring the boats further inshore. It can be done, but presently the boats are sort of over the water when a lot of these things are being done, like scraping off bottom paint and so on. So if you want to do a really good job, you're going to have to give up more of your land, which isn't going to make the landowner that happy when you extend the W zone. I'm not sure. You know, there might be some resistance there. |
| 01:26:18.41 | Unknown | Okay, common notice. |
| 01:26:19.73 | Unknown | But that would also be included in the I-Zone. So if you push them up into the I-Zone net, they could still do it there. It's already defined that way, or we could keep that definition. |
| 01:26:25.04 | Unknown | It's all right. |
| 01:26:25.79 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:26:27.29 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:26:27.37 | Unknown | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 01:26:27.57 | Unknown | Okay. Okay, so moving on to the list. So boat building, we add that to the list. I don't know if this falls under water recreation or not, but then there is schools, or educational rather, marine-related educational, sailing schools, boating schools, I guess boating schools. |
| 01:26:49.41 | Unknown | Yeah, that's Spalding for one, and Modern Saling Academy for another. |
| 01:26:54.51 | Unknown | Yeah. They're both schools, though they're different. Yacht sales or boat sales. |
| 01:27:06.40 | Unknown | You know, actually, in yacht sales, you don't actually need to have your office, you know, right on the water, per se. You can have it back from the water, but you do have to have accessibility, reasonable accessibility, to the boats that you're brokering, like Marata and like Oceanic. They have slips there where the boats can be shown to whatever prospective customers. |
| 01:27:39.63 | Unknown | So are you advocating for it being part of the water district, marine district, marine related use, or it doesn't have to be? |
| 01:27:49.42 | Unknown | You know, I mean, if you really want to be really hard-nosed about this, Thank you. and say that you want to limit the W zone to only those things that really need access to the water, boy, you know what I mean, then you start really getting rid of a lot of things. That's a real good question. |
| 01:28:11.46 | Unknown | Does anybody else have a comment on that? Is it weird to not allow yacht sales by the water? |
| 01:28:18.97 | Unknown | Well, it depends on whether the boats are there. There's yacht salesmen and there's yacht salesmen. |
| 01:28:25.84 | Unknown | Now by the way, the starting point is all historical uses are grandfathered, we're looking at. So there's only really |
| 01:28:29.60 | Unknown | Yeah. Yeah. There's only one pier down there that sells boats, isn't there? Other than maybe through the marinas. That's the pier that... |
| 01:28:41.98 | Unknown | Right. In the Marine ship? Yeah. I think that's true. There's only one. One by the Army Corps? And there's Marat. Yeah, it's one by the Army Corps. Marat is up, yeah. He's up in, what's his name's area? I think there's two. I think there's. |
| 01:28:45.39 | Unknown | There's only one pair. The one by the Army Corps? Yeah, it's the one by the Army Corps. |
| 01:28:49.80 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:28:53.27 | Unknown | Thank you. There's Oceanic and then there's another one. I forget the name of it offhand but it's down by KKMI. |
| 01:28:55.18 | Unknown | Oh, shit. |
| 01:29:00.66 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:29:02.99 | Unknown | Oh, okay. |
| 01:29:04.02 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:29:04.18 | Unknown | you It's down there by KKMI. And then there used to be ABC yachts, the guy went to prison. |
| 01:29:12.27 | Unknown | Yeah, well that took him out. Thank you. |
| 01:29:13.35 | Unknown | They're gone, but they weren't right on the water either. |
| 01:29:15.78 | Unknown | Actually, it has to be real boat sails, not just front. |
| 01:29:17.51 | Unknown | as a front. Well, currently, you're going through what's already there. So both sales are included now. So, |
| 01:29:23.72 | Unknown | I think they'd be included in it, wouldn't they? |
| 01:29:26.89 | Unknown | Okay, so going down the list. |
| 01:29:28.34 | Unknown | should be finished. |
| 01:29:28.39 | Unknown | Let's go back. I'll run down the list that we have so far. |
| 01:29:31.26 | Unknown | that we have so far. |
| 01:29:36.17 | Unknown | I read my personal list, which is kind of what we're talking through. I mean, we went through the business inventory, and then I tried to categorize things. Okay, so water recreational use. Small boat tie-up. Visitor boat tie-up. Waterfront access. I guess public, that would be public waterfront access. Fuel docks. Shipyards, there's a low impact qualifier on there. Boat repair services. Boat Building Operations. Voting schools. Yacht sales. That's the added commercial fishing. Does that make sense? |
| 01:30:27.55 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:30:29.68 | Unknown | Anything else that's glaringly missing at this point in time? I think we can take public comment on this. Um, Adam? |
| 01:30:40.78 | Adam Politzer | They had kind of stuff. Thank you. |
| 01:30:48.43 | Adam Krivacsi | Adam Krivachet for the Olimar Street. I believe that the public access could be also regarded as an important asset to the community. We have a three and a half mile long waterfront and there are only a few places where people gather on the waterfront. And at the same time on the hills there are a number of neighborhoods. When we worked on the transportation plan we looked at a so-called gravity model. What is the shortest way a family can get down to the water? I'll give you an example. In Hurricane College neighborhood or the Main Street or Old Town neighborhood. People use Valley Street to get down to the beach when it's low water. And the entire neighborhood enjoys access to the water just for half an hour, during a beer, have a conversation, and be in a different place than in their backyard or in their home. So one could develop almost a system of what is the most logical place a family would follow or go to and identify this, and they don't have to be large acreage. They could be less than a quarter acre, mini parks or destinations that could be incorporated as a use in the water. |
| 01:32:25.43 | Unknown | Okay, great. Thank you. |
| 01:32:26.47 | Adam Krivacsi | Thank you. |
| 01:32:31.08 | Unknown | Do you have another waterfront use? |
| 01:32:36.01 | Margaret Badger | Margaret Badger. Let's not leave our beach. |
| 01:32:36.43 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:32:43.19 | Margaret Badger | because we have a beach and natural habitat. as a potential use. |
| 01:32:51.45 | Unknown | Okay. |
| 01:32:52.88 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:32:52.90 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:32:52.91 | Margaret Badger | Thank you. |
| 01:32:52.97 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:32:53.19 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:32:53.27 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:32:54.32 | Unknown | Should that be underwater? |
| 01:32:54.33 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:32:54.42 | Unknown | That'd be good. |
| 01:32:54.77 | Unknown | Underwater. I'm not sure how you'd phrase it. Historic landmarks, of course. We have the rails, but anything for serving history is one of the things that we can do. |
| 01:32:55.50 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:33:04.76 | Unknown | One of the other things they had in the definition, and we don't have any, I don't know of any, but marine research laboratories, it seems anything on the educational research |
| 01:33:09.57 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:33:09.64 | Unknown | for the main reason |
| 01:33:10.16 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:33:13.98 | Unknown | Thank you. We have education then. |
| 01:33:16.73 | Unknown | Well, we have voting schools down. |
| 01:33:20.00 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:33:20.02 | Unknown | Okay, I'm not sure if that's exactly the same. I think it's not the same. And I think that when the old Corps of Engineers Pacific Lab Building was the Pacific Lab Building, that's marine research. And that was an important public research. |
| 01:33:22.73 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:33:22.75 | Unknown | Thank you so much. |
| 01:33:38.07 | Unknown | But again, does it need to be right there on the waterfront? |
| 01:33:40.30 | Unknown | No, it's an eye zone. thing. Unless we start talking about the off-the-wall stuff like aquaculture and oyster beds and |
| 01:33:54.32 | Unknown | Well, we should, well, that's, if we've gone through the usual suspects already, I think we should talk about that sort of stuff. |
| 01:33:54.37 | Unknown | Thank you. We have a great day. Yeah, I mean, it was... Thank you. Those are things that are actually beyond the W zone. They're out in the water. And so there's a zone that maybe we're ignoring. |
| 01:34:13.14 | Unknown | Well, I mean, I don't know. |
| 01:34:14.03 | Unknown | Maybe we have a land side W zone and a water side. |
| 01:34:14.25 | Unknown | at home. |
| 01:34:14.51 | Unknown | We'll be right back. |
| 01:34:14.57 | Unknown | I'm putting it in. |
| 01:34:14.84 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:34:17.49 | Unknown | I don't think there's a problem with putting aquaculture on the list. I don't know. I mean, we can put it on the list. But I think what you're talking about is a more general, open... |
| 01:34:27.18 | Unknown | Use that to find marine related. It reminded me from what Margaret was saying. I mean, you know, this is, what's the habitat? I mean, just because we've killed off all the oysters and the herring or whatever else is out there over the years, doesn't mean that they will remain killed off. There is restoration going on. And it could be going on here. |
| 01:34:27.21 | Unknown | use that defies marine-related. |
| 01:34:53.82 | Unknown | So what do we want to call something like that in order to kind of leave it open for things that are not in the current inventory? |
| 01:35:00.25 | Unknown | And we have fishing now? |
| 01:35:01.76 | Unknown | We have commercial fishing, yes. |
| 01:35:03.17 | Unknown | Commercial fishing is down there. And that's, you know, the article that Henry wrote. what's his name, Pantarelli? Pantarelli. Sent, there's another, I looked at that whole document and there's a whole section in there on working waterfront trends. |
| 01:35:11.93 | Unknown | That's really. |
| 01:35:23.80 | Unknown | And they're not good. Thank you. |
| 01:35:25.97 | Unknown | Yeah. Thank you. |
| 01:35:27.15 | Unknown | Thank you. But they're directed at the major waterfronts. They're directed at port expansion. obviously for deep water ports and so on and so forth. They are directed, however, at recreational boating. |
| 01:35:43.66 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 01:35:44.18 | Unknown | Which... you know, they say is an up and down kind of business, depending entirely on how the economy is going. and that it is perceived as being Thank you. getting a little bit better than it was. And that serving recreational boating which was a concern in the marineship specific plan, which they said no more recreational Thank you. Paul slips, you know. |
| 01:36:08.51 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:36:08.83 | Unknown | Thank you. But they didn't say... I don't think. No more. Support. facilities for recreational boating. I didn't see that in the plan when I went through it. AND I COULD invent something if I were a developer I could come up with a pretty good idea about what support facilities might be for recreational, particularly visitor boats. And the other two items that are mentioned at the end of the article, the history and trends of working waterfront, |
| 01:36:34.59 | Unknown | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 01:36:45.88 | Unknown | from the Urban Harbards Institute. They talk about commercial fishing, and they talk about the fact that waterfronts are going to have to pay attention to climate change. And that's one of the major issues that has to be paid attention to on that interface between the water and the land. |
| 01:37:08.44 | Unknown | Speaking of visitor boats, I'm looking at Henry's list. What about marine transportation? Is that something we want to put on this list? |
| 01:37:17.33 | Unknown | That would be a ferry or something like that. Yes. That is precluded. That's actually in the specific plan. They don't want to put that in there. That's exclusionary. Do we want to put it in there? I don't know. That's a good question. |
| 01:37:19.27 | Unknown | And that is precluded. |
| 01:37:28.27 | Unknown | So do we want to put them in there? Thank you. |
| 01:37:30.17 | Unknown | That's a good question. I would say yes. Mr. Ted? Pardon me? What about water taxing? |
| 01:37:31.57 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:37:31.64 | Unknown | Yes. |
| 01:37:31.91 | Unknown | So, |
| 01:37:33.92 | Unknown | Well, they said they didn't want anything like that. |
| 01:37:35.47 | Unknown | June 1. That was excluded? |
| 01:37:38.56 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:37:38.88 | Unknown | I propose putting it on our list. |
| 01:37:40.90 | Unknown | If you don't want tourists, you don't want a taxi. OK? I mean, I think we've got to address that, whether we want people to come or not. I mean, it seems like. |
| 01:37:51.62 | Unknown | Yeah, well, the whole water taxi thing came up. some time ago with that peer issue. There was a guy who came before the council when I was still on the council and wanted to do, he was putting his water taxi thing, and he wanted us to give him some stops or something. Do you have it? Yeah. Yeah. |
| 01:37:57.02 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:37:57.04 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:37:57.29 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:38:06.11 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:38:07.52 | Unknown | Yeah, and I know residents that use it. Well, the idea was that Cabellon Point |
| 01:38:10.01 | Unknown | Well, the idea was that Cabello Point was going to use the water taxi. This guy was going to pick up passengers from down the San Francisco waterfront, stop at Piers 1 1⁄2 where there's a water taxi deal, pop up maybe to Fort Mason, then pop across, maybe up to North Point, and then pop across to Cabello Point, come down to Sausalito, and then maybe Tiburon and maybe Sausalito. |
| 01:38:31.11 | Unknown | Thank you. It was an extremely fashionable idea when they thought that the American's Cup was going to be such a big deal. |
| 01:38:35.58 | Unknown | Yeah, and it's very expensive to run those boats, and unless you have a close harbor like you do in New York, they do quite well. |
| 01:38:43.73 | Unknown | But why is that a reason to preclude it? |
| 01:38:46.58 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:38:46.63 | Unknown | I would say this, that if you make it easy to really easy to access the marine ship by boat, by a taxi, that will make it really interesting for tourists to come. Whereas if you have, for instance, a tie-up for smaller boats, a guy that comes across in his yacht and anchors out and rows his dinghy in, that kind of volume is going to be very, very small compared to the number of people that might decide to get on a water taxi and zoom down because it doesn't take any skill to get on. You pay your money and you take a nice ride and you come in. So I think a water taxi, you're going to open up the possibility of having a fair amount of tourists come. |
| 01:39:34.30 | Unknown | Okay, but this is a very funny conversation because I have, in my business, people come and go in taxis every day. |
| 01:39:42.88 | Unknown | Land test. |
| 01:39:43.03 | Unknown | Car taxis. Yeah. You know, so it's weird to say you can come in a taxi on land, but you can't come in a taxi on the water. |
| 01:39:45.22 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:39:51.99 | Unknown | Well, I think people come specifically because you're well known and people come because they want to buy your product. |
| 01:39:58.65 | Unknown | What would be the difference from somebody grabbing a water taxi at piers 1 1⁄2 in the city and taking off the Heath to see Heath? . |
| 01:40:05.69 | Unknown | something else. |
| 01:40:06.18 | Unknown | Thank you. Well, I, you know, |
| 01:40:06.87 | Unknown | Thank you. Well, everyone's so worried. I'm not terribly worried about a large amount of tourism. But I thought Bill was. |
| 01:40:07.97 | Unknown | Right. |
| 01:40:07.99 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:40:08.12 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:40:08.32 | Unknown | . |
| 01:40:08.34 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:40:08.54 | Unknown | I'm pursuing. |
| 01:40:09.37 | Unknown | Oh, my God. |
| 01:40:09.54 | Unknown | you |
| 01:40:12.98 | Unknown | I've got a suggestion about this, because I don't think that we six are going to solve this whole thing on this spot, but I think that it would be a great idea... to, as we're addressing these, if there's a category of use that we think needs to be really addressed or given further attention or discussed. Let's have a bucket to put that stuff in. |
| 01:40:31.76 | Unknown | In addition. I'm just going to be a little bit. |
| 01:40:33.35 | Unknown | Okay. So I have a maybe list already. I already put marine retail on there, marine related retail. Because I think that needs more discussion too. |
| 01:40:40.93 | Unknown | I think that needs more discussion too. One other thing, I think it's a hot topic just here, but I mean in the public, but again going back to the plan, they say we need to provide water access and if we agree on that and it says approve public access. I mean we don't have to decide that. We can say we're going to have these access points and then at some point we're going to decide what can go in those access points. It may be a water taxi, maybe not, maybe a certain size boat, maybe not. I don't know that we have to decide |
| 01:40:55.49 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:40:55.54 | Unknown | Let me see. |
| 01:40:55.86 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:41:02.27 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:41:02.29 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:41:02.32 | Unknown | Right. |
| 01:41:02.58 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:41:02.75 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:41:02.95 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:41:08.42 | Unknown | No, I think both of you have the best idea. Stick it on a list someplace and let's start right now. |
| 01:41:08.43 | Unknown | So I think |
| 01:41:14.05 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:41:14.07 | Unknown | Yeah, but also, I mean, one more thing and then close it out. I mean, there's only going to be so many access points, and that's going to in some way control and limit the amount of water taxi operations if they actually work, whereas in the Marinship, a car taxi can go anywhere it wants. There's no limitation on that. It's wide open. |
| 01:41:15.76 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:41:33.83 | Unknown | But that also gets to the internal circulation in terms of the streets, how they work, what we should be doing. I mean, I continue to be convinced that there are probably three dead-end roads that really ought to go there, and that's it. And that those dead-ends ought to be the public access to little buildings. |
| 01:41:46.99 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:41:50.96 | Unknown | parklets or whatever you want to call them at the end of the street that provides access but doesn't cut across and conflict then with all of the working |
| 01:41:51.70 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:41:51.72 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:41:55.28 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 01:42:01.57 | Unknown | parts of the waterfront yet. |
| 01:42:01.67 | Unknown | I'm sorry. |
| 01:42:01.76 | Unknown | The waterfront. Thank you. |
| 01:42:02.79 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:42:03.73 | Unknown | I mean, that's a whole separate issue. Um, And I think that it has to do with the notions of the infrastructure and the circulation that might be developed. |
| 01:42:18.23 | Unknown | I think you should put that in your questionable box because I think that needs a bigger public input. Okay, yeah, it's in there. |
| 01:42:26.18 | Unknown | Yep. That's a good question. |
| 01:42:26.61 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:42:26.65 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:42:26.70 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:42:26.73 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:42:26.77 | Unknown | Put recreational fishing in the box, too. |
| 01:42:27.32 | Unknown | Yeah. I'm sorry. What a question. |
| 01:42:30.98 | Unknown | Courageous for fishing. |
| 01:42:32.08 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. There's a cry need for places for the public to get to throw a lie in the water, you know. |
| 01:42:32.72 | Unknown | Good. |
| 01:42:33.69 | Unknown | you |
| 01:42:33.74 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:42:33.75 | Unknown | The original fishing operation. |
| 01:42:38.31 | Unknown | Absolutely. |
| 01:42:40.60 | Unknown | What better place than the water field? We all know how high they have to be above the floor. |
| 01:42:40.74 | Unknown | better place than the waterfowl. I'm not sure. |
| 01:42:45.89 | Unknown | How about charter fishing boats? Do you have that on your list? Is that what you're talking about then? No. No, he's talking about a pair where you fill you in. I've got it. |
| 01:42:45.94 | Unknown | Bye. Thank you. |
| 01:42:50.00 | Unknown | No, he's talking about a pier. I'm just talking about the category of recreational fishing, whatever that means. That means a pier. Charter fishing. |
| 01:42:54.49 | Unknown | I mean, it's a peer. I've been able to go. |
| 01:42:56.33 | Unknown | Shorter for... |
| 01:42:57.19 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:42:57.28 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:42:57.34 | Unknown | Yeah, charter fishing. And then we have... |
| 01:42:59.27 | Unknown | I think that's part of water recreation, isn't it? Yeah, it is. |
| 01:43:02.56 | Unknown | uh, |
| 01:43:02.91 | Unknown | Well, recreational fishing might mean something different, slightly |
| 01:43:02.98 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:43:03.03 | Unknown | Thanks, girl. All right. |
| 01:43:04.48 | Unknown | I'm sorry. |
| 01:43:04.57 | Unknown | I'm not sure. |
| 01:43:04.63 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:43:05.80 | Unknown | I don't know. I think charter fishing wouldn't hurt to be redundant. You also have. |
| 01:43:09.93 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:43:09.97 | Unknown | Oh, hello. |
| 01:43:10.03 | Unknown | I don't know. We'll find it later, I guess, right? So let's be some stuff in the island. |
| 01:43:12.14 | Unknown | stuff in the comments. |
| 01:43:13.00 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:43:13.09 | Unknown | They're kind of different. |
| 01:43:14.45 | Unknown | You also have harbor, you have boat slips, and you also have houseboat, a certain amount of houseboats that are in the marine ship now, and the specific plant says they can stay, but no new ones can be added. And it does say something about residential boats for workers that are working on the waterfront as a possible housing situation. So I think boat slips and even, you know, we do have a harbor already that's in there. We have two of them actually. |
| 01:43:53.03 | Unknown | How many boats that we actually have that are in Sausalito before you run into the county line? Thank you. |
| 01:43:57.60 | Unknown | How many total? |
| 01:43:58.62 | Unknown | No, yeah, house puts. There's Sausalito. Not that many houses. I don't think so. It ends pretty quick, doesn't it, at the end of Gate 5 Road, 6th Road? |
| 01:44:06.21 | Unknown | These are more discussion house bullets putting house posts on the list Well, you're suggesting |
| 01:44:06.73 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:44:10.02 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:44:10.06 | Unknown | So you're suggesting that? |
| 01:44:11.00 | Unknown | It's on your list in the specific plan already. It also has houseboat construction. I mean, that's something that you need to be towed away and worked on. Oh, yeah. It's in the plan. It's allowed in the plan. It's something we have to decide whether we're going to do because obviously that supports the houseboats, both in the south, late on the outside. |
| 01:44:13.37 | Unknown | Okay. |
| 01:44:20.35 | Unknown | Oh yeah. |
| 01:44:29.48 | Unknown | You're soft ladling. And that's the Marine Railways. That's where they pull those things. Okay. |
| 01:44:37.33 | Unknown | No. That's where they service them as well, and that's the only facility that can. |
| 01:44:40.79 | Unknown | You know, they can't pull those up on account. |
| 01:44:45.66 | Unknown | Anything else, Major? So we never also came up with a catch-all for things related to the waterfront that we can't. |
| 01:44:52.47 | Unknown | related to the water. I would, too. You could put that. |
| 01:44:57.29 | Unknown | You can put that in your questionable box. |
| 01:44:57.43 | Unknown | Okay. |
| 01:45:01.86 | Unknown | Does it need more discussion? |
| 01:45:06.30 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:45:06.32 | Unknown | Come on. |
| 01:45:06.34 | Unknown | I mean, I think it's a category that I think also it's leaving things open that are |
| 01:45:07.11 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:45:07.27 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:45:07.28 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:45:11.23 | Unknown | It's a little undefined that we don't have other We need to have something, we need to have those |
| 01:45:13.05 | Unknown | We need to have those undefined categories like that are important, more so than the ones that are defined. |
| 01:45:20.85 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:45:20.88 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:45:20.90 | Unknown | Absolutely. |
| 01:45:23.13 | Unknown | I think one thing you could do that might be more productive would be put things you absolutely don't want. I mean, things you really want to specifically exclude from the W zone. |
| 01:45:39.41 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:45:39.85 | Unknown | Thank you. Um... |
| 01:45:42.31 | Unknown | What can you think that you absolutely don't want there? |
| 01:45:44.46 | Unknown | want there. I mean, I think that's important. That one's like a huge list. Yeah. I mean, it's like everything. Everything else, isn't it? |
| 01:45:49.55 | Unknown | I mean, |
| 01:45:54.58 | Unknown | I don't know. It's nice to hear you say it. |
| 01:45:57.23 | Unknown | That's everything else. I mean, you can put car repair on there. And where do you stop? |
| 01:46:03.73 | Unknown | Thank you. That's already a permitted use. |
| 01:46:05.28 | Unknown | Which I worry about. Not as a marine related, not on a working waterfront. |
| 01:46:09.74 | Unknown | that is not a lot of working working Thank you. |
| 01:46:14.81 | Unknown | Public comment? |
| 01:46:14.93 | Unknown | the comments. |
| 01:46:17.73 | Margaret Badger | There should be some kind of wording to keep something like jet skis out. In other words, it's water-oriented. It's recreational. But I don't think it's what we want on a waterfront. I don't know how you do that with your wording. |
| 01:46:29.24 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 01:46:40.28 | Unknown | Any thoughts on that comment? |
| 01:46:43.59 | Unknown | Yeah, jet skis are a real danger and very disruptive. I think Margaret has a good point there. I don't think we want them zooming around there. |
| 01:46:53.43 | Unknown | Actually, I saw one guy from my house. I could see him. One guy for the longest time would leave and he was obviously going to work someplace on the San Francisco or further down waterfront. That's all I've ever seen is one or two guys. Yeah, yeah. |
| 01:47:11.40 | Unknown | I see one guy water skiing. So as I fall in the category, there's water skiing up there. Like on a jet ski? No, water skiing from above. |
| 01:47:14.70 | Unknown | Yeah, I agree there's a water skiing up there. Not singing like on a jet ski. |
| 01:47:17.94 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:47:17.98 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:47:17.99 | Unknown | I think somebody set a speed limit out there three or four years ago because off of Old Town, off of the boardwalk area, for a year or two, there was some hot jet skiing going on out there. |
| 01:47:19.90 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:47:33.52 | Unknown | Right, you mean actually, yeah. Yeah. This guy was actually commuting. He would get on his boat down by the Asosito Marine, and off he would go. And if I'd catch him at the right time, I'd see him come home. |
| 01:47:35.19 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:47:45.32 | Unknown | Yeah. But that's all I've got. I mean, I've never run down on that waterfront. And I've never seen that. you I think it's another issue. |
| 01:47:55.83 | Unknown | Okay, so I think we've got a... It's almost 8.30 here, so we could keep going a little more. We'll make some progress. We could wrap up and just set an agenda for next meeting instead of next meeting. |
| 01:48:09.04 | Unknown | I think if it lasts more than two hours, it's too long a meeting. |
| 01:48:15.10 | Unknown | Okay. |
| 01:48:15.30 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:48:15.34 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:48:15.64 | Unknown | We could all think of this some more and if we come up with any breakthroughs We could bring it |
| 01:48:19.54 | Unknown | I think we've got the essential stuff for maritime use and defining working waterfront on our list. I think there's a lot more to talk about from here. |
| 01:48:31.11 | Unknown | Do we have anything about it? Did we have boat service or towing? We had that on the hook. I mean, things that have to be on the water to help provide services to them. So I didn't have to do it. And towing. |
| 01:48:36.04 | Unknown | Oh shit. |
| 01:48:42.40 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:48:42.44 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:48:42.57 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:48:43.97 | Unknown | That's a good one. Yeah. Marine towing. |
| 01:48:52.70 | Unknown | Okay, so why don't we just – I mean, that's the start we've kind of gotten. You know, I think a big goal for today's meeting was to get this definition sort of what working waterfront or waterfront means to us in Sausalito. So we've done that. As for next time, I think we – I mean, there's more topics that we need to sort of get in the meat of, which is, well, in case we like those things, but how do we make it work? What does it require? Does it need to be viable on its own? Does it need certain, I don't know, just because it's waterfront related, are certain things perhaps... subsidized, preserved, other things like that because of water-related, if it's not viable on a zone. And then we need to get into, well, what about the rest of the marine ship? Which zones? The I-zone? What is that? What's best used there today? and how to figure out what is the best use of that. |
| 01:49:53.75 | Unknown | I think maybe what we'll do is we'll send you a potential agenda. We can rework it. |
| 01:49:53.78 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:49:54.11 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:49:54.21 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:49:55.84 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:50:01.72 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:50:01.73 | Unknown | I'm sorry. |
| 01:50:01.75 | Unknown | Sure. |
| 01:50:02.24 | Unknown | you Thank you. |
| 01:50:04.89 | Unknown | Chair Petrovis, if I also may, I just want to point out the map that's on the screen right now, this was generated using marine maps, and it shows, you can see this blue line here where the shoreline is, and where the waterfront is here, and then the I-zone over here. So we can have a blow up of this at the next meeting, if that would be helpful. Okay. |
| 01:50:06.27 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:50:06.63 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:50:25.00 | Margaret Badger | if that would be helpful. Yeah, very often. |
| 01:50:26.84 | Unknown | And we also thought as a suggestion maybe to elicit some public input on the list that you started generating for waterfront uses, we could put that list on the Open City Hall website and ask for a comment on it. |
| 01:50:26.86 | Margaret Badger | Thank you. We also thought, |
| 01:50:38.13 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:50:38.17 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:50:38.39 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:50:39.70 | Unknown | I'm not. |
| 01:50:39.77 | Unknown | on it? Thank you. |
| 01:50:40.38 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:50:40.73 | Unknown | Yeah, absolutely. |
| 01:50:42.59 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:50:42.93 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:50:43.03 | Unknown | I'm going to. Thank you. |
| 01:50:43.55 | Unknown | Can I change something just for a second? You mentioned infrastructure, and Jonathan's sitting right there. Jonathan, have you done any kind of a comprehensive or even a specific that could be turned into a comprehensive assessment of the infrastructure costs for the entire waterfront or time, rentship? |
| 01:50:43.60 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 01:51:07.97 | Jonathon Goldman | No. |
| 01:51:11.58 | Unknown | Okay, I know you have some information about, I mean, we're doing that project along Gate 5 Road, so you've got some information on that and some budget numbers and loan numbers and so on. Could we extrapolate from that? My point is I'm trying to, what Bill said I think is really important. If we put our arms around what it would cost, even if we had a swag, you know, wild ass guess, as to what we were looking at here, it would start to inform us a bit about the enormity of the program that we're going to have to enter into. |
| 01:51:26.85 | Unknown | I... |
| 01:51:37.85 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:51:37.87 | Unknown | it. |
| 01:51:38.06 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:51:46.02 | Jonathon Goldman | to have to enter into the Thank you. uh... that's certainly true you're already informed to some extent as to the I can certainly work with Lily and try and figure out some way to present something like One of the mistakes that we could make collectively would be to assume that the existing infrastructure gets replaced where it is. And I wouldn't want to necessarily precipitate that by representing it as this segment of street needs to be reconstructed and all the utilities under it need to be reconstructed. I'd rather try and give you a higher level. There might be however many miles, 10 miles of streets with sidewalks on both sides. Now we can look at what? |
| 01:52:43.41 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 01:52:52.20 | Unknown | what the per 10-mile square foot cost would be to do blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that would be better. |
| 01:52:52.26 | Jonathon Goldman | what the per 10-mile square foot cost would be to do blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that would be better. The other things, the other issues that have to be factored into that, and Bruce Huff and I were talking about this a little bit before the meeting, and it's certainly an issue that has come up in the Gate 5 Sewer Project, is that if we were planning the marine ship today and it had just recently been filled, let's say, constructing new infrastructure would be less expensive than it will be to remove deteriorated infrastructure and unsuitable soils that might potentially be contaminated and things like that. So I want to make sure that we can try to take that kind of issue into account. And then the other piece, of course, that you're also somewhat familiar with is the recognition that if we aren't going to build pile-supported roadways or things like that, that we need to try to prevent that kind of an investment from continuing to survive. To survive, yeah. So, and I know Caltrans has done some of that recently with Styrofoam and Pumas, you know, really lightweight structural support material being brought in to do, for example, one-on-one in downtown San Rafael. |
| 01:53:14.21 | Unknown | If... |
| 01:53:37.80 | Unknown | All right. |
| 01:54:07.91 | Unknown | and can. |
| 01:54:18.81 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:54:28.71 | Unknown | I'm not sure. |
| 01:54:29.00 | Jonathon Goldman | So we could spend some time on that and see if I can provide some useful numbers, but they're not going to be insignificant. |
| 01:54:29.14 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:54:38.92 | Unknown | No, I know. But I think it's important to have something up on the board. |
| 01:54:42.10 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:54:42.53 | Jonathon Goldman | . |
| 01:54:42.58 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:54:42.60 | Jonathon Goldman | Thank you. |
| 01:54:42.75 | Unknown | Thank you. It would seem to me that sort of a global scope of work might be able to be done. Like, you know, and these are the pieces and parts. We just say infrastructure and, you know, rather than saying, you know, power, telephone, gas, water, sewer, storm sewer, you know, all of those things, each of which is probably... |
| 01:54:54.80 | Sandra Bushmaker | Yeah. |
| 01:55:08.91 | Unknown | at a different state of disrepair or usefulness |
| 01:55:15.09 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:55:15.10 | Jonathon Goldman | Yeah. |
| 01:55:15.54 | Unknown | . |
| 01:55:15.88 | Jonathon Goldman | And again, the. |
| 01:55:16.49 | Unknown | again. uh, |
| 01:55:17.65 | Jonathon Goldman | But in order to provide a useful, very conservative estimate of that, all those kinds of things need to be taken into account and expressed. So it's not as simple as, you know, I happen to know that it's a million dollars a mile and blah, blah, blah, because, you know, there's a lot more to it. |
| 01:55:29.73 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:55:29.78 | Unknown | you know, |
| 01:55:30.10 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:55:33.33 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:55:33.36 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:55:33.41 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:55:33.60 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 01:55:37.92 | Unknown | And then lots of footnotes down below it. And disclaimers. |
| 01:55:40.94 | Jonathon Goldman | And disclaimers. |
| 01:55:42.96 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:55:42.98 | Jonathon Goldman | I'm sorry. |
| 01:55:44.01 | Unknown | Okay, good. Okay. Adam Carvazzi would like to say something. |
| 01:55:51.23 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. in the mic. |
| 01:55:52.77 | Unknown | Probably need to pull on the mic. THANK YOU. |
| 01:55:59.26 | Adam Krivacsi | Adam Krivacsi, 840, Eulima Street. This is a very constructive discussion, and I believe that we could help get county support for some of this. so that not Lily and Jonathan has to figure out all the costs. We could use your waterfront assignment as a laboratory for exemplifying some issues that Southern Moraine faces. And Kate Sears is invited, or will be visiting, and the Business Advisory Committee soon. So perhaps that would be a way of communicating to her the benefits of this thought process and get county support in whatever Jonathan really believes the county could contribute continue so keep this in mind at the executive world and maybe you get some wind fog |
| 01:56:58.90 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 01:57:11.35 | Unknown | Thank you. Additional public comment? |
| 01:57:17.87 | Margaret Badger | I just had another idea. It's kind of work intensive. But if on this marine ship map, somehow the figures you gave, Bill, of predicted sea level rise after 20 years and after 50 or 100 |
| 01:57:36.06 | Unknown | Mm. |
| 01:57:37.38 | Margaret Badger | were made visible on the map, it would be very informative. |
| 01:57:38.30 | Unknown | I like that map. Thank you. I think that map already exists. Yeah, it does. I think it's part of the WAM report. |
| 01:57:43.38 | Margaret Badger | Yeah. If they could somehow appear together, it'd be an interesting juxtaposition. |
| 01:57:52.93 | Unknown | Do you happen to already have that one link in the WAM report? |
| 01:57:57.41 | Unknown | I can work on overlaying the maps that we have. |
| 01:58:03.50 | Unknown | Okay, last order of businesses for tonight then is next meeting. So I guess I would propose just to keep things moving along so we can maybe two weeks from now, Monday night. |
| 01:58:17.42 | Unknown | We have one scheduled, don't we? |
| 01:58:20.88 | Unknown | We have no more meetings on the schedule. This was supposed to be our last. This was our last scheduled meeting. |
| 01:58:21.00 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:58:21.20 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 01:58:21.54 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:58:28.03 | Unknown | Chair Katravesh, if I may. This was technical. |
| 01:58:28.39 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. our last meeting and and then it would go to the Planning Commission but we're having this conversation now but we do have so there's biggest two options we have traditionally met on the fourth Mondays of every month we're available for June 16th which would be the third Monday of June if that works for your calendars |
| 01:58:57.73 | Unknown | That's a Sunday? Monday. The 16th. The 16th. I thought you said 15. |
| 01:58:59.64 | Adam Krivacsi | The 16th. |
| 01:59:01.50 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:59:05.80 | Unknown | And there is one scheduled for the 2030. |
| 01:59:10.54 | Unknown | We've had you reserve your fourth Mondays of every month, but we had this finishing in May for you. So you may have been looking forward. |
| 01:59:20.85 | Unknown | looking for. Yeah. that it was going to happen. |
| 01:59:23.03 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 01:59:23.25 | Unknown | you |
| 01:59:24.80 | Adam Politzer | You've done this before. Yeah, yeah. |
| 01:59:25.93 | Unknown | Yeah, yeah. |
| 01:59:29.26 | Adam Politzer | yeah just a reminder we we had two meetings back we started getting into this discussion phase thought that this was important and worthwhile and we need to have more meetings before we brought back the consultants so if if that's the desire of the committee to continue to have this level of really a working discussion until we get to a place that's meaningful then we can bring the consultant back and continuing the direct staff, you know, to provide information, you know, as needed. But that's why we've kind of laid out a series of meetings. And Lily's suggestion on the open town hall, if we gave ourself a little bit of time, we can put information out in the current and send an update to the interested parties that follow this and encourage them to come to open town hall to review the list and give feedback. I think that would be adequate time for us to provide you a response. Thank you. |
| 02:00:33.74 | Unknown | I sort of feel like at least one but probably two more meetings before the consultants come back is what I'm guessing. |
| 02:00:41.48 | Unknown | I would agree with that. But I think as part of our discussion in one of those meetings, we sort of try and figure out how the consultants' work product and, if you like, our work product is sort of fits together, you know. Absolutely. because we haven't yet really dug in and said exactly what of the consultants' work we either agree or disagree with. And, you know, I personally am okay having the consultants' report as a standalone, but with us drawing on what we think is useful out of it and then producing a list of recommendations for next steps for this body. |
| 02:01:03.11 | Unknown | That's an agreement. |
| 02:01:06.59 | Unknown | Absolutely. |
| 02:01:07.62 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:01:07.77 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:01:28.72 | Unknown | How about if we kind of go back and reread the latest draft of the Gazelles report before the next meeting? And my preference is for it to be one, for us to give them more specific direction to include in their report. I think it would be a stronger document. It's still totally up for discussion, of course. But it might be useful to just go back and reread where it's at and think about that, about how that could end it. |
| 02:01:35.35 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 02:01:47.51 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:01:54.36 | Unknown | I'd love to give the consultants a relatively concise rounded sort of finished |
| 02:02:06.40 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 02:02:07.17 | Unknown | you know, deliberation on where we're going to go and then let them take it from there as opposed to leaving it wide open still so they can wander. I agree. Let's see if we can't constrain ourselves and therefore constrain them so we can get the most out of the dollars we spend with them. |
| 02:02:18.04 | Unknown | I agree. |
| 02:02:24.82 | Unknown | you |
| 02:02:26.27 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:02:27.95 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:02:30.71 | Unknown | Okay. So... |
| 02:02:31.47 | Unknown | So does that get us to a meeting on the 16th? Yeah. I think it's, I guess this. Is that meeting on the 23rd? |
| 02:02:34.90 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 02:02:36.03 | Unknown | Yes. |
| 02:02:36.53 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:02:38.31 | Unknown | If you leave that open right now. We can leave it open. Okay. You can do that. Okay. I mean, we might decide that both of those meetings are important. |
| 02:02:38.36 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:02:38.38 | Unknown | If you leave that open right now. I'll leave it open. Okay, you can do that. |
| 02:02:42.53 | Sandra Bushmaker | Thank you. |
| 02:02:42.58 | Unknown | I mean, |
| 02:02:42.80 | Unknown | you know. |
| 02:02:43.10 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:02:45.63 | Unknown | Yeah, just to really kind of push through it. So my notes will go to Lily on kind of the agenda for the next meeting, and let's try and do a little bit of pre-work on it so we can continue this really productive discussion and also look at the consultant's plan. And that's it for tonight. We're a little bit over two hours, sorry. |
| 02:03:05.09 | Unknown | Sure. |
| 02:03:07.01 | Unknown | Okay, meeting adjourned. |
Adam Krivacsi — In Favor: Emphasized the importance of public access to the waterfront, suggesting mini-parks or destinations to enhance community access from neighborhoods. ▶ 📄
Margaret Badger — In Favor: Highlighted the need to include beaches and natural habitat as waterfront uses, and later suggested mapping sea-level rise projections for planning. ▶ 📄
Margaret Badger — Against: Recommended wording to exclude jet skis from waterfront uses due to safety and disruption concerns. ▶ 📄
Adam Krivacsi — Neutral: Suggested seeking county support for infrastructure and planning, using the waterfront as a case study for regional issues. ▶ 📄