| Time | Speaker | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00.60 | Jill Hoffman | We ready? |
| 00:00:08.74 | Jill Hoffman | Welcome to the Tuesday, July 19, 2016 City Council meeting. Debbie, welcome back and can you take the roll please? |
| 00:00:18.27 | Debbie | Thank you. Councilmember Weiner. |
| 00:00:20.67 | Ray Withy | President. |
| 00:00:21.23 | Debbie | Council member Theodores? Present. Vice Mayor Withey? Here. Mayor Hoffman? |
| 00:00:22.27 | Ray Withy | Present. here. |
| 00:00:26.02 | Jill Hoffman | Presently. Okay, can we please have the Chief of Police lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance? |
| 00:00:35.76 | Ray Withy | Which one? But you do it together. Thank you. |
| 00:00:41.59 | Chief of Police | I pledge allegiance to the flag. of the United States of America. and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. |
| 00:00:56.95 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, thank you. Closed session announcements, none. We had no closed session. Do we have any public comment on our closed session items, of which there were none? No. Okay. Would anybody like to make a motion to approve the agenda? |
| 00:01:16.29 | Ray Withy | So moved. |
| 00:01:16.98 | Joe Weiner | Thank you. Second. |
| 00:01:18.25 | Jill Hoffman | All in favor? Aye. |
| 00:01:18.92 | Joe Weiner | Bye. |
| 00:01:20.90 | Jill Hoffman | Moving on to agenda item number one, special presentations. Eric Graham, waste water maintenance worker. is going to make a special presentation. |
| 00:01:37.92 | Jonathon Goldman | These slides are backwards. Good evening, Madam Mayor, members of the council and staff, and members of the community. Jonathan Goldman, your public works director and city engineer, just wanted to briefly introduce one of our newest employees, Eric Graham, who is a wastewater maintenance worker one. Just by way of brief introduction, he's a graduate of automotive, electrical, and fire service training courses at Santa Rosa Junior College. I'll have to introduce you to Chief Tubbs back there, but don't steal him. He's trained in confined space entry and safety, has a California commercial driver's license, class B license, with air brakes and tanks endorsements, both of which are important to the equipment that we use. He comes to the city of Sausalito with a lot of experience with our... the same kind of rotting equipment, flushing equipment, our vector as well as closed circuit television pipeline inspection experience, and then also pipe bursting and other construction equipment experience. Eric brings more than 15 years of experience in mechanical engineering and maintenance, including welding, traffic control, emergency preparedness, landscape maintenance, marine vessels, and public works, and is an American Red Cross volunteer. So with that, I would like you to welcome Eric Graham. |
| 00:03:04.25 | Unknown | Welcome. |
| 00:03:10.63 | Unknown | I appreciate this opportunity to work in this beautiful city. I'll do everything I can to keep everything flowing smoothly and help avoid any overflows. Thank you. |
| 00:03:16.78 | Ed Potch | and |
| 00:03:17.23 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:03:17.38 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 00:03:17.47 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:03:17.52 | Chief of Police | I'm sorry. |
| 00:03:17.99 | Ed Potch | Bye. |
| 00:03:20.94 | Unknown | Great. Thanks very much. |
| 00:03:21.03 | Jill Hoffman | I think I'll be right back. Right. |
| 00:03:21.47 | Ray Withy | Thanks, Rachel. |
| 00:03:22.07 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:03:22.09 | Ray Withy | I'm not. |
| 00:03:25.69 | Ray Withy | Just remember, don't flush any of the bite THE END OF THE END OF THE Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:03:45.18 | Jill Hoffman | uh, Yes. Just briefly recognize that Council Member Pfeiffer is not with us this evening due to a personal matter that she's attending to. So anyway, we'll soldier on without her. All right. Moving on to our next item. Item three, action minutes. Minutes of the... Yes? Did I forget something? Yes. |
| 00:04:13.07 | Katya (Public Commenter) | Oh. Sorry. Thank you. |
| 00:04:14.79 | Jill Hoffman | THANK YOU. |
| 00:04:18.56 | Jill Hoffman | Communications. Thank you. This is the time for City Council to hear from citizens regarding matters that are not on the agenda, except in very limited situations. State law precludes the council from taking action. on or engaging in discussions concerning items of business that are not on the agenda. However, the council may refer to matters not on the agenda to city staff or direct that the subject be agendized for a future meeting. If you'd like to speak at this time, please make sure you have completed a speaker's card and turned it into the city clerk. I see no one approaching the podium. Now moving on to item three, action minutes from a previous meeting. Would anybody like to move to approve the minutes of the previous meeting? |
| 00:04:58.97 | Joe Weiner | So moved. |
| 00:05:00.17 | Jill Hoffman | Second. |
| 00:05:00.69 | Joe Weiner | you |
| 00:05:00.76 | Jill Hoffman | you |
| 00:05:00.83 | Joe Weiner | Second. |
| 00:05:02.19 | Jill Hoffman | All in favor? |
| 00:05:02.79 | Joe Weiner | Hi. |
| 00:05:04.88 | Jill Hoffman | Moving on to the consent calendar. Item number four on our agenda this evening. Removal of items from the consent calendar. Matters listed under the consent calendar are considered routine, non-controversial and require no discussion, are expected to have unanimous council support and may be enacted by the council in one motion in the form listed below. there will be no separate discussion of consent calendar items. However, before the council votes on a motion to adopt the consent calendar items, council members, city staff, or members of the public may request that specific items be removed from the consent calendar for separate action. in order to request an item be pulled. you must have completed a speaker's card and turned it in to the city clerk. items will only be removed from the consent calendar by vote of the council items removed from the consent counter will be discussed later on the agenda And public comment will be heard on any item that was removed from the consent calendar. DO I HAVE ANY PUBLIC COMMENT? or request to remove items from the consent calendar. see none. I have one I have a comment that I want to make before we vote. There's a lot of vehicle replacements on the consent counter. Items C through H are all about replacement of vehicles and moving vehicles around within the city. And I will say that I did follow up with Melanie, our our budget expert about this and these were all items that were in the vehicle replacement fund as part of either this year's budget or previous budgets. And that's, I just wanted to note that before we voted. Do we have any other issues on the consent calendar? No? Do we have? Okay, so... |
| 00:06:55.46 | Ray Withy | I move approval of the consent calendar items for A through L. I second it. |
| 00:07:03.22 | Jill Hoffman | All in favor? |
| 00:07:03.78 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:07:03.80 | Ray Withy | Bye. Bye. |
| 00:07:04.03 | Jill Hoffman | Bye. |
| 00:07:04.56 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:07:05.30 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, moving on to public hearing items. Our first item is A, Introduction First Reading by Title Only, an Ordinance of the City Council of the City of Sausalito. Repealing chapters 5.08 and 13.20 and adding a new chapter 13.20 entitled Peddlers and Door-to-Door Solicitation. and continue the public hearing to July 26 for a second reading and adoption. We're going to have a presentation by our own Lieutenant Stacy Gregory from Sausalito Police Department. Go ahead. You have the floor. |
| 00:07:42.81 | Unknown | Okay, so this is a presentation on our proposed solicitation ordinance. and a little history of the solicitation ordinances here in Sausalito. You'll see the book and magazine solicitors, section 5.8 from 1946. required everybody to register who wanted to go door to door. Um, little outdated, as well as section 13.20, peddling and adopted in 1969. unlawful to sell pedohawk goods on public property. So both are outdated and actually not valid any longer. So we'll talk about the case law, the Watchtower case, and it's cited there on the screen for you. Invalidates ordinances that require all door-to-door solicitors to register. In this case, the protected speech door-to-door solicitors were also being required. So that's how this came up. This watchtower case also allows for cities to regulate commercial solicitation, anything that's not protected, within reason, content neutral, And there needs to be reason for why the solicitation is limited. So our proposed ordinance, the new section would be 1320, replacing the magazine and door-to-door solicitation. The new title would be Peddlers and Door-to-Door Solicitation. This ordinance distinguishes between protected speech and the commercial peddlers. It limits the hours of operation to 7 p.m. or desk to 8 p.m. the next day. It also prohibits the sales from fixed locations, and what that would be is people selling things out of their cars, people pushing the food trucks, things of that nature. prohibits some things on public property, and also regulates vehicle-based and mobile units that actually sell products out of their contraption. The other aspect, and this is the portion that we're excited about in the police department, is because we didn't, from these last two out-of-date and old ordinances, didn't have the ability um, to stop and detain based on solicitation. We did if there was aggression, violence, or any other sort of suspicious behavior related to solicitation, But so this will prohibit anybody from knocking on a door and or disturbing residents who have a no solicitation, no peddling, no trespassing, a sign of that nature on their property. regardless of the reason. I'm not sure. whatever they want to do, they cannot go to a door and disturb the residents if that sign is posted. So that'll give us it'll just really increase our ability to stop and talk to people that are doing the door to door solicitation. Some of the safety benefits is the residents in town, you know, we will, educate the community to let them know if you don't want to be disturbed Please put one of these signs up. I'm not sure. So they'll be able to determine their own comfort. people that come to their door might be the only person they talk to for the day. It reduces incentives of criminal activity, you know, keeps people off the property from skulking around. limits the hours of operation like we talked about. requires identification upon request. So this means if somebody comes to a door where there's not a solicitation sign, And they ask for ID. Who are you with? What's your name? If that's not given, that's a violation, and that also gives us the ability to stop and talk. And then it allows for citations to be issued to the violators and punishable by infraction or misdemeanor. Here's an example of some of the signs that you can put up that would keep people from coming on your property. one in particular that might help And so that's the quick and dirty of it. So I'm open for questions. |
| 00:12:08.03 | Jill Hoffman | So I'll launch because I had some questions that I sent to Lieutenant Gregory and Mary Wagner today about this, the proposed ordinance. In earlier drafts there had been there had been a requirement for Is it a permit or registering prior to engaging in this type of activity in town? the display of your permit or registration conducting yourself and We had talked about different ideas on that, one idea was a lanyard that they have to wear their permit on a lanyard around their neck. which I think is really... I think that's a really good idea. I like the permitting or registering. whatever you wanna charge, no fee, whatever, I'm not really concerned about that part of it. But just so that people, when they see other people walking around their neighborhoods and someone is claims to be there for a commercial purpose, at least you'll be able to easily identify them. So, you know, I, I understand that, how do you feel about that? I mean, my sense is that it's a good thing, that it makes people feel more secure in their neighborhoods and they can easily identify who's there and why they're there. But anyway, I'm open to discussion on that. |
| 00:13:25.63 | Unknown | since you asked, I'll tell you how I feel. Okay. I think it gives a false sense of security. It does, I think, probably 25% of the people that we have going door to door which is far less than it used to be. THEIR OWNERS. truly commercial, solicitors who we would give a permit to Excuse me, there's a bug. So I think the false sense of security, I liken it to a victim getting a restraining order. It's a piece of paper. |
| 00:14:00.78 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:14:02.25 | Unknown | but it doesn't really in turn make the community safer Um, I think what's going to make it safer is We now have the ability to stop and talk. to the people that are wandering our streets. The people that are wandering our streets that we're concerned about are not the people that are gonna come and get a permit and go through the process. I'm not sure. Those people, the commercial vendors, are legitimate. They know the process. They check in with the city prior to coming. The bad guys and the protected speech religious, political, We can't require them. They're most of the people that we're going to see going door to door. And, So. My opinion is as long as we have the ability to stop and detain and there's um, ordinances for us to cite behind and take some action behind. I think that's going to solve the problem. I may be wrong, but looking into research, researching other cities, A lot of them are doing the same thing we are because the regulation, the permitting, it's – it's from what I've seen is that they start the permitting process and then it kind of dwindles out. So then you're down to the same problem that you had before. Um, So, The no solicitation sign and my goal is if this does go through is to make sure that we educate the public. Because there are a lot of people that don't want to be bothered. and So we put the signs up and then at that point, you know, as soon as we get a call, We go out and we're, you know, At that point, we can figure out who's in our community and walking around and make sure that we educate them on the rules they have to follow. |
| 00:15:47.48 | Jill Hoffman | Any photographs? |
| 00:15:49.79 | Ray Withy | Thanks, Stacy. I'm a little confused about the relationship between the protected speech and the no solicitation sign. So if there's a no solicitation sign, does that mean that even if you got, I don't know, someone who's going door to door for religious reasons or political reasons that they can't nonetheless disturb someone if they've got a no solicitation sign up. Is that correct? Correct. |
| 00:16:26.86 | Unknown | Correct. If there's a no solicitation sign, nobody's going to come to your door. Right. Should come to your door. Okay, good. But the difference is that we can't require protected speech to be permitted. |
| 00:16:31.12 | Ray Withy | Right. It should come to your door. |
| 00:16:38.44 | Ray Withy | Understood. |
| 00:16:38.96 | Ray Withy | Thank you. How did you come up with the time at nighttime? Because do places, some of them use dusk or things like that where |
| 00:16:46.52 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:16:46.56 | Unknown | Do it. |
| 00:16:50.86 | Unknown | Yeah, the Watchtower case actually calls that out and says either 7 p.m. or dusk, whichever comes first. |
| 00:16:51.20 | Ray Withy | THE WASH. |
| 00:16:58.49 | Ray Withy | Okay. |
| 00:16:59.04 | Unknown | So I used their decision. |
| 00:17:02.32 | Joe Weiner | And I understand that this was modeled off from San Rafael, is that correct? By the way. |
| 00:17:06.88 | Unknown | I looked at Santa Fe, but I looked at many other cities. |
| 00:17:10.08 | Joe Weiner | And did I hear you say that the trend is not to have the permitting, but to have the no solicitation sign and modeled this way? Okay. And has it been working out? I mean, did you, again, check any issues one way or the other? Like, were the permitting causing more bureaucratic problems, or were they helping or not having it? Was that an issue? |
| 00:17:30.79 | Unknown | The only thing I've really learned is that it's not causing more problems. It's just, you know, it starts off strong and then slowly dwindled off, because I think the benefits of it weren't as powerful as they thought. as far as the solicitation sign that that was more beneficial to them because you know there's a there's a clear rule and law and if it's violated then we're called and we come in and handle business. |
| 00:17:58.19 | Jill Hoffman | Is there any... Is there any downside to having both? I mean, so we have the no solicitation signs and also requiring the permitting. I mean, that would just give an extra layer of protection, right, and extra layer of security for the residents. Right. |
| 00:18:13.35 | Unknown | Thank you. That's certainly true. |
| 00:18:17.14 | Jill Hoffman | Yeah. |
| 00:18:17.80 | Unknown | it's still going to you're still going to have the same result if they violate But like I said, to To develop that process and the administrative work behind it for the very small percentage of legitimate people that are coming through our town. Um, The police department didn't find it super beneficial, but it's certainly something we can do. |
| 00:18:44.06 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, and we can put different implementation schedules as well, right? I mean, the no solicitation signs, that could be immediate. That's just up to the residents to do it. But I mean, and then we could say, okay, by January, whatever. we're going to impose you know you would come we we would do the imposition of a permitting and display display of the permit like at a later date by no later than april 1st or something something like that |
| 00:19:10.16 | Unknown | Yeah, my suggestion is. |
| 00:19:10.70 | Jill Hoffman | Yes, Mary's got her hand up. |
| 00:19:12.09 | Unknown | Oh, sorry. My suggestion would be to implement this and to see what the results are. I mean, see if it's taking care of the specific problem that we have here in town. Because I don't think the problem is the commercial vendors. I think the problem are the people that we're going to learn about when they violate the solicitation sign ordinance. |
| 00:19:33.99 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 00:19:34.01 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:19:34.04 | Jill Hoffman | PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE |
| 00:19:34.13 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:19:34.14 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:19:34.18 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 00:19:34.60 | Joe Weiner | Did you look at what it would cost us to have the registration part of it? I mean, because we'd have to set it up and someone would have to do it. Did you look at the cost that would likely could? |
| 00:19:43.98 | Unknown | No, I've not gotten that far. |
| 00:19:45.33 | Joe Weiner | And the other thing is I'm a little, and maybe you gave some thought. I'm wondering how would vendors know that they have to get a permit? How would that occur if we did have this, you know, requiring the register? Well, if they're the rest of the time. |
| 00:19:55.98 | Unknown | Require them to register. If they're the real educated ones that go to every city, they're probably going to look on our city ordinance. But most of them would learn about it through our contact with them. And if they're a legitimate commercial business vendors going door to door, then they would come and go through the process at that point. But I think most of them we would probably have to have the first contact with them to educate them on the process. |
| 00:20:22.98 | Jill Hoffman | Okay. All right. Any public comment on this issue? I see no one in the room. Okay, let's bring it back up here for comment then. |
| 00:20:33.31 | Ray Withy | Well, my only comment would be, I think we should move ahead with this, but maybe get a report in six months. |
| 00:20:33.74 | Jill Hoffman | it. |
| 00:20:41.83 | Ray Withy | on how it is going. And that will determine if we want to make changes or anything. Is six months enough time to kind of feel it out? Okay. |
| 00:20:56.07 | Joe Weiner | Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you for a short, concise, but very clear presentation because it was very understandable. And some of that, there's some nuance to it, so I appreciate that, a great presentation. And it's the right thing to do. Thank you for also looking into cleaning up other things on our books where there's no confusion. I think I agree that certainly we want to do this. In terms of the registration, I'm a little concerned about cost and confusion and that kind of thing. So I tend to agree that maybe we could do it down the line. I would, if we were to entertain it, I'd like to see how it would be done and what it would cost us to do that. But I certainly support this ordinance as presented. |
| 00:21:38.38 | Unknown | in his way since six months. Thank you. |
| 00:21:42.49 | Ray Withy | Yeah, thanks Stacy, that was good. I pretty much agree with Councilmember Theodore's there. If we're going to pass this, we need to do two readings. We're not going to be able to get this done tonight if we wanted to incorporate the registration. But I think it's something to potentially come back with. How's it going to be done? Which department, presumably, police department's going to do it? Are you going to do it at the front counter? And the police, you know, all the administrative stuff has to be worked out. So that's not going to get worked out tonight, so. Yeah, so I say move forward with as is. Let's have a second read-in next week, and maybe at some six months sounds good. Come back and let's evaluate whether we need to add a registration program, what its cost and what its operational, how it's going to be operated. |
| 00:22:35.87 | Jill Hoffman | Well, I understand, you know, my fellow council members, of course, but I think the registration permitting is really important. The original drafts that I read of this ordinance included that, and I think that's a really good thing to have in there, especially the people that I've talked to up in the neighborhoods who have suffered a lot of break-ins, multiple break-ins over the past few years are very concerned about this type of ordinance and what we can do to further regulate who's up in our neighborhoods and why they're there. So I don't see any downside for the permitting. I don't see any downside for and also having the permits displayed. I think that eases the minds of the people in the neighborhoods a lot. When they see someone walking around and they see the lanyard, they don't have to engage with them. They would know, they would just know by looking at them, hey, they've already registered, it looks like it's okay, I don't need to call the police. And if somebody's skulking around and doesn't have one, then that's a lot easier as well. And again, so that the resident doesn't have to engage with that person If they don't want to, they can tell immediately whether or not that person's registered and why they're in their neighborhood. So what I would rather do is wait until... We have It doesn't have to be an involved process for the permitting and the display, but I would think that that should be part of the initial ordinance, and I don't see any reason why we would put that off, because I think that's an important part to be... included in the ordinance. I wouldn't want to have to come back later and amend it. We're in the process right now. That's the process that we're in. We're gonna come back next week anyway and look at it. for the second reading I think it's on the agenda so anyway I and I would propose that that we have next week if Lieutenant Gregory can do this, you can come back with an amendment. Um, next week with that process in there. Another paragraph that says, you know, if you're going to be the police department. you know, one step process. It doesn't have to be involved, it doesn't have to be high cost, I wouldn't think. And I wouldn't think there'd be that many numbers of people that would be coming through and trying to register anyway, but I could be wrong. But that would also weed out a whole population of people that would want to engage in this act anyway. They wouldn't want to be walking in the police department. And I should have asked those questions during the... |
| 00:25:08.03 | Ray Withy | Oh. Yeah. Like, |
| 00:25:09.63 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. But go ahead. |
| 00:25:10.17 | Ray Withy | Yeah, may I, Madam Mayor, ask our city attorney. |
| 00:25:12.59 | Jill Hoffman | THE CITY. |
| 00:25:12.94 | Unknown | of the |
| 00:25:14.71 | Ray Withy | With regards to adding those additional provisions Can we incorporate it and just have a second reading, or have we got to come back from scratch? |
| 00:25:28.70 | Mary Wagner | I think that adding that type of requirement in is more involved than just a paragraph. I mean, if you were to give us some direction tonight to add something pretty straightforward that we all understood, you could give first reading tonight because we would understand the language that was added. But to bring back an ordinance next week that has laid out a full process, I think you'd have to give first reading next week and then come back in September for second reading. I mean, if you really want to do that, I would give first reading tonight to this provision. Give second reading to the provision next week so that it's clearly in place and that gives the police this season starting probably the end of August would be 30 days from adoption so they'd have of the summer season, tourist season left to work with that. You could direct us to bring the other part of it back for first reading next week if you want us to. The league did put together a model ordinance on this after the Watchtower decision, so we have a template that we can work with. But it's really the implementation of it that's the issue. As you indicated, who's doing it, how much does it cost, how do you get your permit? And then also, as you pointed out, that not everybody who's legally walking around a neighborhood is going to have a permit if it's a type of protected speech, which was part of the discussion the police department and I had about maybe there being a little misunderstanding and concern that we were creating a sense of security that might not necessarily exist. We're happy to do whatever the council directs and want, of course, the people to feel secure in their neighborhoods and what's being presented. I think if you give first reading to the first part tonight, you can give second reading next week. It goes into effect at the end of August. You could give first reading to an additional piece next week, although we have about 15 hours to turn that around for you to get it in your packet for next week. And then you could give first read to that, second read in September, and have it go into effect. Or you could direct us to bring that to you at some future date, whatever you choose. |
| 00:27:34.25 | Jill Hoffman | What if we added paragraph I on page 3 of 4 of the draft and paragraph under paragraph H it says under paragraph 13.20.04 or 040. Let me say that again. Under 13.20.04. to 0.040 conditions and regulations. What if we just add paragraph I, Peddler shall register at Saucyut Police Department for a permit and display permits on their person while engaged in the activities under this ordinance. |
| 00:28:07.68 | Joe Weiner | I mean, if we're going to do this, I think we should do it right and look at the model. I also want to hear more about it and give it some thought. The problem is, I appreciate the mayor's concerns, but I could just see someone coming with the permit and people who don't have a no solicitation sign think that they have to. I think it could cause a lot of, I'd like to give it some thought because we're trying to make it more protective and actually i'm not 100 sure it isn't uh our police department is saying that they're not recommending it and i know they they like things that are clear so they have to get in the business of telling people they have a permit or not having a permit which i don't know when i'm weighing and balancing i'm not sure that the protections are going to be worth it but i want to hear it i think we, we have to, you know, we haven't had one for a number of years. If we do it, let's do it right. And if we're going to have the permitting process, let's, you know, we can wait another meeting or two. |
| 00:28:57.11 | Ray Withy | meeting or two yeah well I mentioned six months I mean we could do it three months they don't have it I'd like to see going through the summer because the weather is weather is nice you'll get people that will be out And instead of six months, have her come back in three months, she'll have a pretty good idea of if it's effective of what else we need. you I mean, three months is a short period of time. |
| 00:29:25.09 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:29:25.11 | Ray Withy | And then decide. And we can decide. |
| 00:29:28.70 | Ray Withy | Madam Mayor, you've just quoted a paragraph I that I don't have access to. |
| 00:29:32.93 | Jill Hoffman | Oh, sorry. I'm looking at item 5A, attachment 1. |
| 00:29:37.78 | Ray Withy | Yeah, I didn't see that in my version of it. |
| 00:29:38.76 | Jill Hoffman | See you. Page three of four says at the bottom. |
| 00:29:42.03 | Ray Withy | ROLLED. |
| 00:29:45.91 | Ray Withy | I have an aye. Yeah, I don't have an aye. |
| 00:29:47.99 | Jill Hoffman | No, I just added it. Oh, you just added it. That's my draft. That's my draft of fair. All right. |
| 00:29:48.01 | Ray Withy | No, I just asked. |
| 00:29:51.68 | Ray Withy | Oh, oh, oh, oh. Sorry. Right here. Sorry. I see. |
| 00:29:52.26 | Jill Hoffman | Oh, |
| 00:29:52.70 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 00:29:52.73 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 00:29:52.75 | Chief of Police | Oh my God. |
| 00:29:54.30 | Jill Hoffman | Right here. |
| 00:29:59.11 | Ray Withy | So what was the language again? |
| 00:29:59.95 | Jill Hoffman | Because, well Mary, here's the, it's just very simple. That peddlers shall register at the Stossley Police Department for a permit and display permits on their person while engaged in the activities addressed in this ordinance. That's it. And then please for and figure out how they want to. |
| 00:30:17.40 | Ray Withy | Yeah, I really, I don't like burdening the PD unless they feel it's necessary. I mean, sometimes you don't have anybody down. Now you're going to have someone out there picking up the phone, saying, I get a register and somebody's downtown doing something and she's got to come back. It doesn't work. They, if you had people there all the time, then it could, then it could maybe work. And we might do that anyway. But I say go in like it is now, maybe get back in three months, Because I see it all the time when people are down there. They're on that phone. And I hate to have someone have to go rush down there because someone wants a permit and then they gotta go in I mean, I don't know. |
| 00:31:12.84 | Joe Weiner | Can we start off, can we ask the city attorney, would that work with the proposed section I work? So let's start there. |
| 00:31:13.24 | Ray Withy | Sorry. |
| 00:31:20.36 | Mary Wagner | It works. The police department would have to just then adopt the implementing provisions of it. Because, you know, we're not, we're still talking about speech. It's commercial speech. So you have to have, you know, there's still a test you have to meet in order to control it. I'm looking at the league's model ordinance. It has a whole provision on what you have to provide, you know, what kind of ID, what kind of activity authorizes denial of a permit, and then what kind of activity authorizes revoking of a permit. And that includes the provision that you display at all times. So if you were inclined to add that I, I think we would also want to add a section that says a peddler has to display the permit at all times and provide it when requested or something along those lines. So if the council wanted to add that language, you can. And then we'd work with the police department to develop the implementing the back paperwork. |
| 00:32:15.02 | Jill Hoffman | So that's what I would like to do. And then if there's problems or it needs to be amended later, then we can come back and amend it later. But now it's in place, and now we don't have to think about coming back. Because my position is just that, If I'm living in those neighborhoods, and I know it's been a problem, I know strange people have come to people's doors, even when they have a no solicitation sign. If they have a lanyard on you, you know at least they've been down to the police department, and you know, And you don't really have to engage with them. You can just, you know, you know they've at least done that. So that's what I would propose. That's my motion that we do. Someone has my hand. |
| 00:32:53.87 | Joe Weiner | Thank you. I think it's a little bit more. |
| 00:32:55.43 | Jill Hoffman | Yeah, of course. |
| 00:32:57.06 | Joe Weiner | I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, IF WE DO HAVE A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A PERMITTING THING, DO WE HAVE TO SAY NOT WITHSTANDING A If you have a no solicitation sign or they can't knock on the door. That's clear. It's clear anyway. I just want to make sure that we don't have that. And I guess I'd go back to Lieutenant Gregory and give her one more. Is that something you could live with? |
| 00:33:09.29 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 00:33:09.32 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:33:09.36 | Mary Wagner | IT'S CLEAR. |
| 00:33:09.74 | Unknown | you Yeah. |
| 00:33:10.03 | Unknown | It's... |
| 00:33:19.82 | Joe Weiner | for cheap okay. |
| 00:33:23.19 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, so that's my motion. |
| 00:33:25.66 | Joe Weiner | Oh, go ahead. Say that we would revisit it in, let's say, six months or a year. Because I think you need a little time to do that. |
| 00:33:25.88 | Jill Hoffman | Bye. Yeah, absolutely. |
| 00:33:29.29 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:33:29.30 | Jill Hoffman | because if it's |
| 00:33:30.05 | Ray Withy | you to do that. Yeah. Because of the weather, the condition is going to be... Well, there's... |
| 00:33:34.92 | Joe Weiner | there. Well, the permit part is the part. |
| 00:33:38.30 | Ray Withy | to the Thank you. The Pressure. |
| 00:33:45.69 | Jill Hoffman | Yeah, do you want to give it time, you want to say six months or whatever? |
| 00:33:48.29 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:33:48.31 | Joe Weiner | Yeah. As long as we come back, because we don't want to, if it's a burden to the police, we want to have them, and we don't want to make them have to raise it, I think, if we say, we're going to look at it. And actually, on something like this, I think a year might make more sense. But by the time you get everything permitted and working, so we can have it. |
| 00:33:52.22 | Jill Hoffman | Yeah, I agree. |
| 00:34:06.85 | Joe Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:34:06.88 | Ray Withy | they would revisit it. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:34:08.45 | Joe Weiner | Thank you. |
| 00:34:09.58 | Ray Withy | So Mary, do you sort of get the gist of what that motion would be, what that change would be, such that we could validly have a first read-in tonight? |
| 00:34:22.29 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, I think it's both the new paragraph I and then we'll add in the language that you also have to display. So there'll be a new section that says carry your thing with you at all times. Okay. And if possible, we'll even, you know, I'll work with the PD to see if we can develop the |
| 00:34:23.76 | Ray Withy | Yeah. languages Okay. |
| 00:34:31.37 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 00:34:35.74 | Mary Wagner | kind of implementing procedures so you can see it. Physically how it's done and when it's done and the fee for that might be something for a future date. |
| 00:34:37.83 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:34:44.04 | Ray Withy | Okay, so I'll second the mayor's motion. |
| 00:34:47.03 | Jill Hoffman | All in favor? |
| 00:34:48.33 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 00:34:48.43 | Jill Hoffman | Aye. Any opposed? Nope. Okay. Motion passes. Okay, moving along. |
| 00:34:48.50 | Ray Withy | Hi. |
| 00:34:59.97 | Jill Hoffman | So, |
| 00:35:03.50 | Jill Hoffman | We're on to our second... Our second item on the public hearings, this is item B. Item 5B, Introduction of First Reading, Reading by Title Only, an Ordinance of the City Council of the City of Sausalito to modify SMC Section 10B. 1028-080-D2 to increase the emergency shelter capacity from a maximum of 20 beds to a maximum of 23 beds, and SMC section 1028-080-122 to decrease the maximum length of stay from 90 days in a 365 day period to 30 days in a 365 day period. and continue the public hearing to July 26, 2016 for a second reading and adoption. And we have Danny Castro, our community development director here to give us a presentation. Thank you, Danny. You may continue. |
| 00:36:04.55 | Danny Castro | Good evening, Mayor Hoffman, members of the Council. This evening is a... Introduction and first reading of ordinance text amendment to modify their emergency shelter ordinance. To increase the shelter capacity from a maximum of 20 beds to a maximum of 23 beds. And decrease the maximum length of stay from 90 days in a 365 day period to 30 days in a 365 day period. Amendments were directed by the City Council. The Planning Commission is required to provide recommendations, and the City Council makes the final decision to adopt the ordinance amendments. And that's why we're here tonight. To provide some background, the So yeah, to provide some background, I think I'm right here. In 2007, Senate Bill 2 was adopted, which required among other items, cities and counties to address housing needs for the homeless. As a refresher, SB 2 requires cities to identify at least one zoning district where emergency shelters are allowed without any special permits. Emergency shelters are defined as temporary housing for homeless persons that is limited to occupancy of six months or less by a homeless person. There are limited standards that the city is allowed to apply to such shelters. Otherwise, the shelter is mandated to be subject to the same standards as other uses. In July of 2014, the city adopted an emergency shelter ordinance which addressed the requirements of SB2. In May of this year, the city amended that ordinance, modifying the management standards as required by the state And removing four of the sites in the overlay zone due to concerns regarding their proximity to schools and children. And that was City Hall, the Corpyard, the school district site on Nevada, and the MLK site on Coloma. At the May 3rd and May 17th, 2016 City Council meetings, the Council directed the Planning Commission to review an amendment to the zoning ordinance to increase the number of beds in a shelter from 20 to 23 and decrease the allowed length of stay from 90 to 30. And provide a recommendation to the council. At the planning commission meeting of June 22nd of this year, planning commission meeting, the commission reviewed the proposed amendments and recommended the city council amend the municipal code to increase the emergency shelter capacity from a maximum of 20 beds to a maximum of 23 beds, but not to amend the code to decrease the maximum length of stay from 90 days in a 365-day period to 30 days in a 65-day period. 365 day period. The proposed amendment to the municipal code is to increase again from 20 to 23. the 2013 point in time survey identified 23 unsheltered homeless people in Sausalito, which is now defined as the bed capacity needed to fulfill the unmet need for homeless facilities within this community. This means that sites identified within the PI, the Public Institutional Zone, that allow emergency homeless shelters must accommodate at least the number of shelters required in order to accommodate the need for 23 beds. With the City Council's adoption of Ordinance 1235, the emergency shelter overlay sites were reduced in number. by increasing the shelter capacity from 20 to 23, the city only needs to demonstrate the capacity for one shelter in the city. Staff does not believe that the State Department of Housing and Community Development, HCD for short, would have concerns about increasing the shelter size. And staff in the planning commission recommends to the city council increasing the shelter capacity from 20 to 23. beds. In terms of length of stay, the City Council's direction was to review an amendment to decrease the length of stay from 90 to 30 days. you The government code and the city's zoning ordinance define an emergency shelter as housing with minimal support services for homeless persons that is limited to occupancy of six months or less by homeless person. In terms of background on the length of stay issue, in 2014, the draft ordinance allowed for up to 90 days stay by a homeless person, with the potential for up to a 90 day extension in a year's period for a total not to exceed 180 days. The Planning Commission, in their review of the ordinance, directed that the 90-day extension be deleted. HCD directed staff to consult with a local shelter provider to ensure that an annual 90-day limit on stays wouldn't serve as a constraint to providing service. Homeward Bound of Marin Director Mary Kay Sweeney stated that a limit of a 90 day stay would serve as a constraint, as 90 days is not enough time in some cases for clients to secure permanent housing and resolve their situation. And Ms. Sweeney also recommended conditions that may make that recommended conditions that may make a homeless person eligible for an extension of time beyond the 90 days, but no greater than 180 days in total. The Council adopted the ordinance with a 90-day maximum stay limit with the potential for a 90-day extension. That would be a total of not to exceed 180 days in a 365-day period. At the May 3rd and May 17th meeting of this year, the City Council directed the Planning Commission to make these amendments to decrease the maximum length of stay from 90 to 30 days. And pursuant to the direction that was provided by HCD in 2014, staff once again contacted Homeward Bound of Marin Director Mary Kay Sweeney. Ms. Sweeney indicated that Homeward Bound of Marin operates five centers in Marin, as listed on the screen. All of the facilities, except for two specialized facilities that would not be defined as emergency shelters in the context of what we are discussing, have a maximum length of stay of six months. |
| 00:42:36.80 | Danny Castro | Ms. Sweeney indicated that a limit of 30 days would serve as a constraint in providing shelter service in Sausalito, as 30 days is not enough time in most cases for clients to secure permanent housing and resolve their situation. She indicated that the purpose of an emergency shelter is to help homeless persons find permanent housing and, in general, It is very difficult for shelter clients to find permanent housing. A 30-day stay maximum would make this even more difficult to find permanent housing, She mentioned that in some cases, due to the condition of the rental marketplace, Homeward Bound needs to grant extension extensions even beyond the six months in order to allow people to find permanent housing. And Ms. Sweeney also indicated that shelters who allow for less than a 180-day stay will not have access to federal funding and therefore a 30-day maximum stay would serve as a constraint in the shelter providing services. Additionally, Ms. Sweeney mentioned that a benefit to having a stay longer than 30 days is that clients tend to develop relationships during their stay in the shelter, and those relationships may lead to clients finding permanent housing together. a shorter stay may not foster this relationship. In terms of impacts on the neighborhood, Ms. Sweeney indicated that a maximum limit of a shorter stay may promote a revolving door effect and have a greater impact on the neighborhood than a longer stay. Ms. Sweeney mentioned that a shorter stay may have the potential to have the effect of encouraging chronically homeless who are not seeking permanent housing to use the service rather than those who are in the process of securing permanent housing, resolving their situations. For these reasons, staff in the Planning Commission does not recommend modifying the ordinance to reduce the maximum length of stay from 90 to 30, Staff and the Planning Commission recommend the existing ordinance language regarding length of stay remain. Staff indicated in the report that the ordinance amendment is consistent with a number of policies in the housing element of the general plan. And in terms of environmental review, this minor text amendment is exempt from environmental review for the same reasons the original ordinance was exempt from CEQA. And the city sent out notification of this text amendment in a variety of ways, and it's listed here. Notice to property owners within 300 feet, posted at City Hall, and was published in the IJ. And to this date, we did not receive any correspondence It's recommended that you introduce and read by title only an ordinance of the City Council of the City of Sausalito to modify SMC section 10.28080D2 to increase the emergency shelter capacity from a maximum of 20 beds to a maximum of 23 beds. and to continue the public hearing to the July 26th meeting for a second reading and adoption. And that concludes my report. If you have any questions, I'm available. |
| 00:45:48.99 | Jill Hoffman | Any questions? |
| 00:45:51.04 | Ray Withy | Yeah. One very, thank you, Danny. One very brief question. I did not, unfortunately, have a chance to review the Planning Commission's video of this. But could you tell me what the vote was? Was it like 3-2? Was it 4-1, 5-0? What was the sense of the Planning Commission on this? |
| 00:46:14.75 | Danny Castro | It was a unanimous vote. |
| 00:46:16.98 | Ray Withy | Yeah. |
| 00:46:17.12 | Danny Castro | Yeah, I mean, I don't know. A very similar presentation was given regarding the comments from the homeward bound of Marin And there was little discussion other than meeting requirements of SB2. |
| 00:46:32.84 | Ray Withy | Okay. Thank you. |
| 00:46:39.04 | Jill Hoffman | Sorry, any other questions? I guess I have a question maybe for Mary. Let's say we decided not to follow the Planning Commission's recommendation and decided to go ahead and reduce it from 90 to 30. We could still do that this evening, correct? Yes. Okay. Okay, thanks. I don't have any further questions. Okay. So public comment. I have one card from Patricia Cornwell, Cornell? Patricia? Yeah. Cornell, sorry. Hi. How are you? |
| 00:47:24.36 | Patricia Cornell | I. Oh, okay. I think tonight that I'm gonna just start off with an example of what I'd like to never ever see happen again. About three weeks ago, it was on the front page of the Press Democrat that a Sonoma State student who graduated had some part-time work but was homeless. He was found murdered, stabbed to death, because he was actually sleeping about, I think, 1230 in the morning. in a business doorway in downtown Santa Rosa, and he was stabbed 50 times to death. The very next day there was another murder. A homeless person was in the movie theater in Santa Rosa. He was stabbed to death. That was, according to the police of Santa Rosa, the fourth homeless murder in six months, in the past six months up there. I'm going to tell you just from life's experience that a lot of homeless people do not want to go to homeless shelters because you will find people in there that have, violent tendencies, and you'll find people that just had their home destroyed by a fire, their normal. So a lot of people don't want to go because they don't feel safe to go to shelters. when those shelters aren't being run properly or they're not built properly. So the new trend is where each homeless person is given their own tiny house on wheels, just like a trailer, but it's eco-friendly and cheaper. And I think it was Dallas, Texas, recently gave a lot of homeless people because their own tiny house on wheels to live in, so that they could lock their door and be safe from one another or just feel safer. And that city, I think it was Dallas, did a study on the economics of it all and found it was actually cheaper to give each homeless person a tiny house on wheels and to have rather a shelter where there's a lot of beds in it. It was actually found to be cheaper to run. And I just think that each person should have their own little space where they could at least lock the door. So if you're not going to do the tiny house thing, at least have the shelter where you could have, build like a little cubby, so each person could just lock their door and just have like the communal bathroom and shower or whatever. And I think that's mostly what I'd like to say. And also, it's not anybody's place that when a homeless person enters a shelter to have some caseworker or a person on duty come up and assess them for some kind of treatment. It's nobody's place. The concept of the shelter is you've lost your home or you've lost your job, and you don't have a safe place to sleep from the cold. That's really all that shelter should be providing. You can offer treatment or offer resources. But basically, that's not what a shelter's for. I guess that's my time. |
| 00:50:33.55 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. Thanks. All right, I have another card. There's no name on it. Might be Jeff's. |
| 00:50:41.56 | Jeff Jacob | It is. Very good. Hello, Ms. Mayor, City Council, City Manager, |
| 00:50:42.56 | Jill Hoffman | Very good. Hello, Ms. Mayor. |
| 00:50:44.06 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 00:50:44.18 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 00:50:44.50 | Chief of Police | THE FAMILY. |
| 00:50:47.69 | Jeff Jacob | police. |
| 00:50:48.65 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 00:50:50.02 | Jeff Jacob | I'd like to start this off by reading from the Holy Koran. It says this, and this I think Jill will be a little bit about The homeless issue as well, it says we let the oppressed people Inherit the land east and west, And we blessed it. The blessed commands of your Lord were thus fulfilled for the children of Israel. to reward them for their steadfastness, and we annihilated the works of Pharaoh and his people and everything they harvested. So this is a Sura number 7137. in the Holy Koran. |
| 00:51:39.70 | Jeff Jacob | In this surah, WHAT WE'RE HEARING IS is that the children of Israel have a right to, Israel. in the document for the Submitters. Islam. And... I feel that the people here who come and pass through Sausalito on their way from San Francisco or maybe on their way up or on their way down, And they take a look at this place and they see the boats, they see Dunphy Park still open, And... They... wonder maybe if they can find a place here. And I know that this issue is not exactly a real one, that there is no proposal on the table for brick and mortar homeless shelter. That this has been discussed now for a few hours. that I've been at this year and past years as well. I think that what Tish said is very much to the point that This might not be solved by building a homeless shelter here, and I don't think that's the feeling of the city council that that's what they want to do, or the citizens of Sausalito, just as importantly. But what we do on the boats is we... give people a free ride, On my boat, I let them stay for a night. The second time, there's usually a transfer of something, energy or food or fuel to cook with. And there are large houses here in Sausalito where there are Very few people living in them. I've learned that too in this city council. And some of those people might need help. That doesn't mean that you pick somebody up from Market Street and bring them to Sausalito and say all of a sudden, you're the handyman here. That's not how it could possibly work. So I'm hoping that this. issue becomes an opportunity for growth for all of us, so thank you. |
| 00:53:51.46 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. Okay, I don't have any other cards. I'm assuming there's no other public comment on this. Back up to the council for discussion. Comment? Um... Public comments close, I'm sorry. Sorry. Okay, so this is back to City Council. for discussion. |
| 00:54:21.55 | Joe Weiner | Yeah, I'll start off. |
| 00:54:21.95 | Jill Hoffman | I'm sorry. |
| 00:54:24.52 | Joe Weiner | I THINK WE SHOULD FOLLOW THE MOTION. I THINK THE PLANNING COMMISSION HAS IT RIGHT. FOR ONE, WE WANT TO GO FROM 20 TO 23 BEDS. IT'S GOOD THAT THAT WOULD potentially REMOVE OUR NEED FOR HAVING TWO SHELTERS. I THINK WE'VE GOT TO BE VERY CLEAR HERE, AND I THINK THAT WE WE'RE NOT BILLING A SHELTER. WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE COMPLY WITH THE HCD RULES. AND WE'VE LOOKED AT IT BEFORE. WE'VE GOT THE REPORT FROM OUR COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT. PLANNING COMMISSION VOTED 5-0 ON IT. AND I THINK WE SHOULD ACCEPT THEIR RECOMMENDATION. SO I WOULD SUPPORT THE MOTION AS PRESENTED. |
| 00:55:08.59 | Ray Withy | Well, I also agree. First of all, The purpose of this homeless shelter is not to have it a place where you go in and out by by by the day of the week. If you're homeless, And even if you're working, at least you have a place that you could stay and accumulate some money. They're always talking about how you could go from homeless to having a place. Well, it takes money to do that. And if you think that in 30 days someone is going to be able to First of all, if they have to get a job first to be able to make some money to be able to afford to rent a place. And 30 days, 60 days, even 90 days is really close. But at least it does give them the opportunity to be able to accumulate something so they can get their lives together. To me, 30 days is just a stopover for people coming out of the bad weather. |
| 00:56:16.80 | Ray Withy | Over the last couple of weeks in talking to folks in town, it's very clear that some think that we're Planning to build a homeless shelter. And I want to emphasize what council member Theodore said, that this is a THE END OF THE END OF THE minor amendment to the zoning ordinance that relates to homeless shelters that was put in the first place so that we were in conformance with California SB2. And so that's what this is about. It's a zoning issue. It's nothing to do with us actually building a homeless shelter. And I take note of the fact that this was a 5-0 vote, or a unanimous vote at the Planning Commission for this recommendation. So I'm comfortable with it. |
| 00:57:15.29 | Jill Hoffman | Well, you know. The Planning Commission recommendation is just a recommendation. So I think we had a very robust discussion during the last City Council meeting when we sent this to the Planning Commission I'm not sure. And we had some very specific reasons about why we wanted to do 30 days instead of 90 days. To me those reasons still stand. And I think it's 90 days with a possible extension up to 180 days. So that's six months in Sausalito at a shelter. And I still think that that's too much for our community. So one possible option that we might do is do 30 days with the extension up to 180 days, if necessary, sorry, up to 90 days if necessary, so 30 with an extension up to 180 days if necessary, sorry, up to 90 days if necessary, so 30 with an extension up to 90 days. But otherwise, I think that the reasons that we discussed prior still exist, I think 30 days is sufficient for our community and that it's up to us to set the parameters now instead of thinking this is theoretical. To some extent it is, but to another extent it isn't. And so what controls we put on what's built in our community is very important. So those are my two cents. If anybody's interested in talking about that with a 30-day Limit with a possible extension up to 90 days, you know we can talk about how we could amend a and then the ordinance. |
| 00:58:52.71 | Joe Weiner | Well, I appreciate the mayor's sentiment, but I think we've been through this and it's pretty clear that we run the risk. That if we go any less that this won't be approved, that we will open it up. And by the way, and just with that, I mean, we had some of the information that shorter stays actually a revolving door. But we're not there actually. What we're really doing right now is we're talking about the zoning. And we have to make sure that our emergency shelter portion of the housing element passes muster with HCD. I think doing anything less, that's why we sent the community development back. That's why we send it back to the planning commission. We'll fall short of that and we won't have one that will pass muster with HCD. So with that, I would. By the way, I do have a question. We don't deal, if we read, if I make a motion to introduce and read this without talking about the 90 days, then we're still at 90 days, is that correct? |
| 00:59:52.74 | Jill Hoffman | Well, okay, but we're not just at 90 days. We're at 90 days with a possible extension of up to 180 days, so we're at six months. So that's what. |
| 01:00:01.83 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, the response was meant to indicate that provisions already included in the ordinance that's in place right now. So there's nothing you would need to do to put the existing provision in place. |
| 01:00:02.59 | Jill Hoffman | Yeah. |
| 01:00:13.98 | Joe Weiner | And this was considered by the by the planning commission. |
| 01:00:17.66 | Jill Hoffman | right and that but that's what we were concerned about and that's why we sent it to the planning commission because we thought that that was not |
| 01:00:18.30 | Joe Weiner | But the. |
| 01:00:23.97 | Jill Hoffman | acceptable for our community. And to speculate, I mean, this has been part of the problem, right, with the whole housing element. Part of it's been driven by speculation about whether or not something's acceptable to HCD or not. And the only way to figure that out is if it's not acceptable. And the only way to do that is to actually enact what you feel is sufficient for your community and for them to come back and say no. I haven't seen anything that says HCD is given a minimum standard. There's nothing that I've seen that says HCD will find 30 days unacceptable. To me, to speculate about what's acceptable, they may or may not find acceptable, is not what we should be doing. We should be thinking about, as we did previously, what's acceptable for our community. and If that's not. HCD wants to make a comment on that or come back with something else then we can address that but not to speculate Going forward on something that's this important for our community the the downside is that somebody actually comes in and builds a shelter for, and people can stay up to six months in Sausalito. So. that anyway. |
| 01:01:35.32 | Joe Weiner | AND BY THE WAY, JUST TO BE CLEAR AGAIN, I THINK WHEN WE LOOKED AT IT, IT WASN'T CLEAR THAT THE ENTIRE COUNCIL DID NOT WANTED TO GO DOWN TO 90 DAYS. WE SAID WE WOULD HAVE STAFF AND PLANNING COMMISSION TAKE A LOOK AT THAT AND CERTAINLY THAT WAS MY POSITION. SO I'M CERTAINLY READY TO MAKE A MOTION ON THIS. |
| 01:01:51.33 | Jill Hoffman | Yeah, that's fine. |
| 01:01:51.72 | Joe Weiner | Okay. So I move that we introduce and read by title only an ordinance of the City Council of the City of Sausalito to modify SMC section 10.28.080.d.2 to increase the emergency shelter capacity from a maximum of 20 beds to a maximum of 23 beds. And that we continue the public hearing to July 26, 2016 for a second reading and adoption. |
| 01:02:20.16 | Jill Hoffman | Second. |
| 01:02:21.22 | Ray Withy | I'll second it. |
| 01:02:22.80 | Jill Hoffman | in favor? |
| 01:02:24.56 | Ray Withy | Hi. |
| 01:02:25.72 | Jill Hoffman | Opposed? Opposed. Motion carries, 3-1. Okay, moving on. Our next item, business item is under 6A, bicycle parking and congestion management program update. |
| 01:02:51.78 | Jill Hoffman | And that's by our own Sassalew Police Chief John Robacher. Oh, and the Pedestrian and Bike Committee Chair Ed Potch. |
| 01:03:13.30 | Ray Withy | Thank you. It's there if you want to get it. |
| 01:03:33.14 | John Rohrbacher | Good evening, Mayor, Vice Mayor and City Council. I'm here tonight to present the monthly update on our bicycle congestion and management plan. Also, Let me see how this is going to go. |
| 01:03:49.59 | John Rohrbacher | Last month at the presentation AND I THINK THAT'S A You received and filed our monthly status report But you have asked previously to come back monthly, and so we're here again. but also as a extra piece at the City Council's Pedestrian and Bike Advisory Committee meeting in June. which was a couple days after the last meeting the committee developed a recommendation that the city council approve the use of additional city parking spaces. But since that time, we've already had another pedestrian bike advisory committee meeting, which was last night. So to help fill in that gap, after I finish my slides, Dr. Ed Vach, the chairperson of your city council's pedestrian bike advisory committee is going to help out with some more information for you. |
| 01:04:43.83 | John Rohrbacher | So what I have first is a run through a little bit of statistics. And some of them might be the same as what Ed's going to talk about, but They're actually, I find them pretty interesting. We are seeing that The total bite count coming into Sausalito has grown and by 21%, no small number. And that's a comparison from 2015 and 2016. We're also showing that the bike valet parking income has increased, but the difference in the number here, I have to point out, is that here on this number that you'll see that's only the 15th through the 30th comparison. It's because last year, in June before the 15th, we were not collecting any money. and so we don't have a full month to make a comparison against the full month of june so just comparing the last two weeks of june last year and this year. there's a 12% increase in the parking income. And then the total for the month was over $34,000. for June of this year, which is a pretty darn good month. So... a number of is a little tiny bit different than the number based on the dollars of $3 per ticket. It's because we have some kids 13 and under get to park for free and some family group discounts and such like that. But for the time period here, We're seeing that the amount of tickets issued is about like what you would figure with the increase in the parking income, and it's pretty much the same. . BUT THE little bit of difference here between 12% and the income and the 18% in the tickets issued is just the offset because of the month. count. If that makes sense. So it's just trying to compare a little bit of numbers from the whole month to the half month in the income. So a little bit better indication, and even though this is a report for June, I really want to sneak in the July 4th weekend numbers because they're whole numbers compared from last year. Again, there was an increase in the amount of bikes that were counted coming into town from the same days in 2015 and the same days in 2016, 16%. But the income for, again, the same comparison days, was 25%. And I believe, and even though I can't otherwise point to it other than through observation, is that It's not just 16% income increase here, like the 16% bike count. because there's simply more people parking their bikes. So I'm hoping that the amount of people parking their bikes has increased because it's an end product of all the work that we've been doing with all of our partners in the congestion management And we've also seen a reduction in the amount of bikes parked illegally. So the number going up, I take as a very good sign that more people are paying to park. because if it was the same as last year, we would expect this number to be about 16%. So that's my inference from those numbers, and I think it's actually a pretty good thing. However, with those increase in numbers does come some additional bikes. And you can see from these photos, I have a couple of them here. The racks are pretty near full. On a day like this, that's probably about an 80% number there. I'm sure Ed's probably got a more exact number, but I think it's pretty close. |
| 01:08:40.96 | John Rohrbacher | In addition to, this year we're counting a lot of things, because that was part of the 10 point plan that the Pedestrian Bike Advisory Committee brought last year and asked for us to do. And this is just a single day snapshot, but it was a really busy day, Sunday, July 10th. AND I THINK IT'S A The ambassadors counted 2,367 bikes coming into town for that day, a pretty big number. And then we were able to get the numbers from the Golden Gate Ferry and the Blue and Gold Ferry passengers they loaded with bicycles. And it was 2150. which is about 90% of the rental bikes that came into town that day left on the boats, which is a significant improvement from last year. But again, a snapshot like a lot of this information is, But it's a great indicator that, again, the partnership is working with the ferry companies, the queuing, the bike rental companies, the ambassadors. And it's a combined product. and a lot of teamwork goes into this kind of success. So I'm very encouraged by that number. I don't know that that's the number good every day, but the day that we checked, because it was just so busy that it seemed like a good day to see what we were doing. And so I think that's excellent news. But again, it doesn't come without some congestion. So that many bikes in town, you can see the line here forming up on anchor where the taxis usually line up. It's certainly a lot of people, by the time the People get this far down in a day like today where that picture was taken. late afternoon when people are congregating back into Sausalito to leave on the boats, that's probably like boat two or boat three leaving in a lineup of boats being queued, trying to pick up the passengers late in the day. Another view of that same This is just at the entrance to mini-lot one. I think that's got pictures that'll show even further down going towards Spinnaker. |
| 01:10:47.70 | John Rohrbacher | So talk about enforcement a little bit because it's a really big part of what we're trying to do. And I've told the council before that, I have been the person probably holding back on this as we go forward, trying to make sure that we had all of our processes in place, because it's very important to us in law enforcement to make sure that's done, that we've, thought of everything that we can given appropriate warnings and RAMPED UP SLOWLY. And so here's an example of four weeks worth of bikes impounded. And so we started off with just nine, And then we went to 11, and you can see we had a week of just two. And I think that was the weekend when it was really cold. Either that or we just didn't have time to do any. And then on a particular day when we knew we were really crowded and it was a day that we typically don't do bike enforcement, which is a Tuesday, we had 13. And then this last week we had 38. So we're putting more resources towards it, but right now the impounding is being done by the parking enforcement officers, who of course have a primary job to do other than this. And then starting this Friday is our return of our retired parking enforcement officer who's gonna work on this full time on a schedule of Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And this will be his job. And so we'll see these numbers go up considerably. And a picture of just a few of the bike areas where there were people parked where we don't want them. These are bikes that were actually locked up. some of them anyways. And another picture of some here, this is by the newspaper rack in Muni lot two. And this is on the other side of that same rack. and many of these were locked up as well. And then I brought a... little prop to share is that even though we try really hard, there are some people who just aren't real happy with us and, uh, Some scoundrels cut our luck. And so It's a... Hard to accept being the victim of a crime when you're at the police department, but here we are. So they... I don't have all the first-hand details, but I understand it was a pair of bikes that did not look like rental bikes. I don't know that for sure, but they didn't have the traditional bag in the front with a little map and case and such. And the reports to me were that a couple people approached the bike, saw that it was locked up, and then left, and then came back with some device to cut our lock. And then to add insult to injury, they threw it in the garbage. And so. It only just doubles our resolve to make sure that we get even. But this is the cut, and so I don't really know what they cut it with, because it's now small feet to cut this cable. But they cut the cable, threw this in our lock in the trash, and took their bikes away. So. We're going to be more vigilant because that Not real happy about it, but that's what happens. So again, when we see stuff like that, then people are paying attention to the lock, and they see that their bikes are locked up. So... Anyways, I guess you have to have a little fun with it. Just kind of how it goes. So there's also, speaking of new partners, this is the bicycle return program that's run by John and Lisa Capazzi down on Locust at the intersection of Bridgeway. And... So they've only been in business now four full weeks, and again, for them it's just Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday that counts. They're doing pretty good, at least in my estimation, because every one of those bikes listed there would be bikes that would otherwise be in line. and anything we can do to reduce the congestion Here's a plus. And, They made a point knowing that we're gonna talk about them tonight that they wanted to acknowledge that they're greeting great cooperation from South School Plus, from the ambassadors. and from the people working the Golden Gate Ferry staff. because they're all sharing in the efforts to try to make sure that congestion management goes as well as it possibly can. So if you haven't seen it, this is a picture of their operation. This was taken, I think, on their first weekend. I'm not exactly sure. But the way that the trailer's parked indicates it was their first week. And then as they move things around a little bit and tuck that trailer into that gate opening for that storage yard, here's more bikes lined up. So we're very happy that that's working for them and helping us reduce congestion. |
| 01:15:23.00 | John Rohrbacher | So where are we now? We're at a position where We're midway through, but we're just getting into the really busy weeks. If it's not been busy enough, it's gonna stay this way longer. SO, You'll hear from Ed, there's some discussion from the committee about maybe some additional paid parking spaces. But there's some alternatives, they're not all great, but they are alternatives. |
| 01:15:55.67 | John Rohrbacher | If the riders are told that parking's full, then they have some options. and they can go to the free parking, but that's probably full. But that is a way to check. They have the option to go to the bike return program. and get their bike put away. and taken back to the city for them. They can take a cab back, and certainly last weekend, you'd have to be hard-pressed to find a cab because every one of them was taking bikes back. And, or of course they can continue through Sausalito and ride to Tiburon. and maybe get their ferry ride back from there. I'm not sure. They can go immediately into line and hope for the ferry ride back. That adds to that long line that you saw in the previous slide. It's not a great solution, but it moves fairly quickly, depending where you are in line. Or they can go back to the city. I know it's a tough ride back. But if they parked their bike illegally, there's a good chance this is going to happen to them, minus the cut. And so we're committed to doing that. I'm, EVEN THOUGH THERE'S SOME you know, temptation to think about making changes this point. You know, my recommendation is that we don't. I think that we're on a pretty good course. We have great cooperation from all the parties that are involved. I think some days is extraordinarily challenging for them. because the people that are doing the queuing are working very hard to do that, even though that line is very long, they are fairly well managed. But it does plug up our sidewalks, there's no denying that. They We have a reduction in the amount of bikes that are parked illegally. We have bike parking that's approaching full status on several days, but on a lot of days, so like in the middle of the week, it's not. adding other parking spaces presents a whole lot of challenges. You have previously, I think at my presentation in March, pre-authorized the use of the Bank of America parking space for what I would term emergency use, that it wasn't just gonna be for overflow. That was my interpretation of it, that it wasn't just because we're busy we're gonna open up that spot. I wanted to get that request in early because it really takes action of the council to declare that authorization to I wanted that in my back pocket just in case. You know, we're sort of looking like we're getting there, but it's not quite yet, and I don't feel like it's... worthy of pre-staging the equipment there because it's unsightly, I don't know that we would use it. So I'm holding that back. And I know there's some temptation and some indication that we should be using it now already. But we're getting by. I don't like just the thin aspect of getting by, but we are doing okay. you know, with the alternatives and people can keep moving through then I'm not suggesting any changes. So, I'm hoping that you're going to just receive and file my report. I'm not asking for any particular action unless you want to give me some feedback. And but Dr. Fotch is here to give his presentation. So if you'd rather wait till Ed gives his, then I'm happy to take questions. |
| 01:19:17.84 | Jill Hoffman | I think so. Wait until after. Yeah, that's fine. Dr. Fauci, why don't you go ahead and give yours an email. |
| 01:19:24.38 | John Rohrbacher | follow-up. |
| 01:19:24.79 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 01:19:24.81 | John Rohrbacher | Thank you. |
| 01:19:24.82 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 01:19:28.60 | Ed Potch | I'll just leave mine up. Do you have any idea where mine is? |
| 01:19:38.61 | John Rohrbacher | Let's see if it's in that presentation folder probably. So you can close my eyes. |
| 01:19:38.86 | Ed Potch | Perhaps. |
| 01:19:47.33 | Ed Potch | Thank you. that was morning. I don't see it. |
| 01:19:57.00 | Ed Potch | Thank you. |
| 01:19:57.02 | John Rohrbacher | All right, so that's our question. |
| 01:19:59.85 | Ed Potch | Yeah. I can't do it. |
| 01:20:01.73 | John Rohrbacher | you |
| 01:20:02.00 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 01:20:04.55 | Ed Potch | So. But I have it right here. Put it in here instead. |
| 01:20:07.47 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:20:08.41 | Ed Potch | Let me just plug it in here, okay? Because this would be better. |
| 01:20:17.44 | Ed Potch | First, well, I'm trying to figure this out. Congratulations to the council, because you're actually, before I started talking, running ahead of schedule. I don't. We were. Yeah. Exactly. |
| 01:20:28.58 | Jill Hoffman | We were. |
| 01:20:33.39 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:20:35.95 | Ed Potch | Okay, so secondly, I want to thank the police chief and the department for their hard work when I last had the chance to speak with you. Ed Fodge, chairman of the Pedestrian and Bicycle Advisory Committee. When we last spoke, I left you with the thing to focus on is enforcement. It still is. It turns out that, as we've discussed before, bicycles are vehicles under the California Vehicle Code. It's nice to think we can just say no to them. We can't. We can no more say no to rental bikes than we can say no to Hertz rental cars. but we can control parking of vehicles and where they park and when they park, and I think that's certainly something that our committee has focused on as an area that, that is completely in the control of the city. And so you'll see that that's part of the of the discussion, let me just say that I, even though having the, cord cut, if you will, on the red thing. It's still a victory. Why? Those people will never park illegally again in Sausalito. And everyone who went by saw that that bike was impounded. I actually have photographs of the bike. I can confirm it was not rental bikes. These were high-end road bikes. And it happened to be with an eye shot of Tracy Way and I happened to be down there and I watched this whole thing go down. And I actually give these guys credit for figuring out how the heck to cut that cable. But if you're willing to put all that effort into it, you're not gonna do it again. And that started, the point of impounding is not to impound. It's to not have bikes parked illegally. So I even consider that a victory. Just a quick comment on the increase year over year. Two things, 20% increase. I haven't the slightest idea if that's going to continue. What I do know is these are pretty good numbers. And this is one of the reasons we have ambassadors, because they count the bikes, they count them the same way every year. This is June over June numbers. from someone at station one right at the entrance town. It's very obvious who the rental bikes are. So we have a 20% increase, and June was not that wonderful a month from a weather standpoint. Excuse me. And frankly, neither was the Fourth of July. All that having been said, I have no idea if 20% is the right number year over year. What I can tell you, is if you have 20% year over year increase, you're gonna double the number of bikes in about three and a half years. I mean, that's just math and compounding. numbers, but not a whole lot more to say about that, except that It's good that we have these numbers. As the chief pointed out, and I can spend a lot of time on this, we have large numbers of folks. What I did want to point out, is that, the queue now as we're getting into the season, because there's no queuing system aside from just standing in line. goes down Tracy Way, up harbor, and as we discussed last night, you'll soon be able to have lunch at Spinnaker and be in the line for the ferry at the same time, which has a certain amount of convenience to it. Um, I don't think that's the right long-term solution. We had a queuing system last year. We didn't execute it this year because the queuing was turned over to the bike operators and the ferry folks. Um, I know the folks of the folks in town is not to make a better experience necessarily for these bike visitors. But what I can tell you standing there and listening to families who are in line for two hours in the hot sun is just pretty brutal stuff. and But the reason I showed the slide is that the citizens of the town don't have the use of these sidewalks. because these sidewalks are tied up for hours on end. AND I THINK IT'S A There was some attempt last year to have biked stand single file so people can walk down. That's not even a possibility. If they were in single file, it would be up further. We have what we have for this year, and I don't have a whole lot more to say about that. On the bike parking thing, I think we're trending in the right direction. um We discussed last night that we're easing into that. I think that's the right thing to do, but fundamentally if we cannot control our streets and sidewalks and parks, We can't control parking. If we can't control parking, we can't control bicycles and we're overrun. It is the only arrow in our quiver, frankly, aside from speeding, which isn't too much of an issue. And so I think this is an extremely important thing to focus on. and that we absolutely need to say, this is where we park, this is where we don't park, particularly during the hours per our code. The chief had mentioned options for overflow bike parking Neither he nor I know whether this is going to be important this year. The current Tracy Way parking includes the official lot and Tracy Way. We've spoken about B of A, but the truth of the matter is From a logistic standpoint and a safety standpoint, it's difficult to use B of A. And I would add from an aesthetic standpoint, it's tough because It looks like a place in town that should have some wonderful fountain or something. It's kind of the center of town, and to slap bike racks in there sort of makes it look like the center of town is a bike parking rack, One of the nice things about Tracy Way, and I know not everyone likes it closed during the warm season, but the reality is it's kinda out of the way, it's protected by trees, and you don't sort of feel like, you know, the center of town is a parking lot. But you'd have to remember that everyone's gonna have to cross over to the B of A, and the ambassadors would have to run something over there, and you'd have to somehow cordon that off. So we kicked around the ideas of using some space in lot one, and we labeled them at the committee option, lot one option A and lot one option B, the, committee kind of likes lot one option B because it's in close proximity. The idea here is not to shut it down for a long period of time, but to have the capability If you know you're looking at a warm weather weekend, which frankly is the one coming up where you're gonna have large volumes, that we could post with cones ahead of time. Please don't park here. get five spots and add another Well, total capacity, if you have four racks, 15 bikes to a rack, and you typically turn them twice, So, I mean, you can do the math. It adds substantially. We have 35 racks now, so one rack adds, you know, three to... or 3% or so so 5x would add 15% to the total capacity and we get to the budget you'll see the the relevance that having been said I truly do not know that this is going to be necessary and the question is what optionality are you going to provide to the staff in addition to whatever option there is for B of A, I would point out in our discussion last night, that Jonathan Goldman appropriately pointed out is not just a question of putting up some cones and some safety tape, we would have to put in some physical structure, probably I always say this wrong, a Ballard or whatever it is, those posts that stick into the ground, and we probably need, I'm just guessing, just eyeballing at a half dozen of them so there'd be a cost associated with that. I'm not sure. The good news is that we have identified that we can get one more rack into the current Tracy way and that adds 5%, three to 5% more bikes, 50 more per day, 150 more dollars per day, so, But what you'll see in the recommendations is to give the staff some more optionality in this space because I don't think what they have at B of A is necessarily ideal. I want to now focus on the ambassador budget versus actual And let me start by saying it is a... It's a byproduct of history. that I believe and a byproduct of probably me that we've tied the budget of the ambassadors in terms of the cost to the revenue that the city gets. Which is to say, if the city got no revenue, would they still want to have ambassadors? for the bikes. And I think the answer is yes, but I don't know, and I don't have to make that call. But we've always sort of said the ambassadors and the revenue associated with the ambassadors are a thing. That came from our committee. OUR COMMITTEE, charged ourselves with bringing recommendations to the council that were cost neutral to the taxpayers. THE 2016 PLAN had two sources of revenue. One was valet parking, one was bike queuing. Valley parking was more, queuing was less. And as it turns out, the plan that has been followed does not include the bike queuing. So there is no revenue from bike queuing. And all we have is the valet parking. widen the lens the total cost of having an ambassador program is as it's been run, is $250,000 to $300,000 a year. the total revenue this year FROM the activities associated with the ambassadors will be roughly a quarter million dollars. As I'm looking at this, and I'm doing a little bit of Tom Riley's spiel, I have resigned, as I think I told you, from the Saucido Plus board. He's the chairman. But we're looking at if we continue to run the program as it's being run right now, there will be a projected shortfall that will be identical to last year's shortfall. of about $25,000, or 10% of the total budget. Now, I can tell you having started and run five companies, I've never gotten that close. ever. BUT That was my money and my investors money. This is the city's money. This is the taxpayers money. Different category. I will point out that the ambassadors have already cut their staff. Rough, just under 20%, from 12 to 10 a day. And it has an impact. So as an example, There's a photograph of the base of Princess. And there's a little park there. Normally you'd have an ambassador there. We call that station three. The goal of that ambassador is twofold. One is. to have the bikes stop at red lights. You wouldn't think you'd need that, but trust me, If there's no one standing there, they ride right through. And the second is to ask folks to not park there. They are adjusting to the new 10 versus 12. They didn't staff for Station 3, which is this. And in a short period of time, a lot of bikes showed up. And I can just tell you anecdotally, a lot of bikes ran through the red light because there was no one there with a little stop sign thing that they normally have. Nonetheless, Sausalito Plus has taken it upon themselves to cut their staffing already, because the queuing revenue is not gonna be there And if you, I probably should have stayed on the previous slide for just a second. So there's a 40 plus thousand dollar deficit at this point which was essentially planned if you looked at the budget, because July and August are the surplus months. They should each be over $10,000 in But there's no queuing revenue and so that's not there. And so they, I think Tom Riley and my wife Deb got together and started cutting THE CITY IS A CITY IS maybe a week or two ago, to try to get the numbers to match up. So if you look at the budget shortfall, again, In my opinion, the city should be saying, do we want an ambassador program? Yes, no. Do we want it to do these things, full stop, Secondly, what revenue should there be associated with bicycles to support the Ambassador Program and in anything else? Now, if you dial that back to this year, what are the immediate opportunities to make this a kind of washout? Well, the first is to cut more ambassadors. If you cut another two ambassadors, you'll just about zero things out. That will have an impact. There will be no one at station one, there will be nobody at station three. It doesn't mean there won't be an ambassador program, but some of the things the ambassadors have done that have put less of a burden on the police and, frankly, made life a little easier and kept that picture from occurring in the park. Not just that park. But in Vina del Mar and in Gabrielson, there's not enough bodies. And so that's, you know, so one option. The second, and I know that... that Tom and Deb are working on this is to supplement with volunteers. Now we've had conversations before about a volunteer program, and the volunteers are great, and we would really like to have more volunteers. But the reality is that you can't run a program like this on volunteers. We can ask for more. I know anecdotally some of the folks from last year aren't available this year. I'd suggested reaching out to the Lions Club, to Rotary, to the Women's Club, You don't need to you seven or eight hours of ambassadors, you basically need two or three. So anyone who's watching at home or really motivated to be an ambassador, of SaucedoPlus.org. and they would love to have you to wear a vest and walkie talkie, it's really cool. BUT, I think that's helpful. Third, and this is Tom Riley in collaboration with the Chief. They started the season by saying there may be a shortfall because we're not doing the queuing program. And I wasn't at the meeting, but I'm told that they said to the ferry and bike vendors, These are your clients, you're making millions, We're trying to run a break even business. If there's a shortfall, we're going to be coming to you halfway through the season. and saying, you know, we're short at this point. Porter Mag II $25,000. Another thing that I particularly like is to proactively enforce the bike parking. I mean, if you just do the simple math, I mean, if you found 20 illegally bike parks a day, which you could do, without very good vision. and multiply times $25 times 60 days is 30,000, which just sort of magically happens to be roughly the cost, or roughly the shortfall. THE FAMILY. And what I would say, and this is a request from Tom Riley, because he's the chair of Solicited Plus, is really could use some direction. If the city council says, what's really important is that this is break even, for this year, that's direction. If it's what's really important is to have the ambassador program at a level that is where it currently is, which is somewhat dialed back, That's direction. even if you try to do these other things. I realize $25,000 is not a big number for the city council in terms of the budget, but it's a big number in terms of our committee, our recommendations to you, and certainly a big number to Saucyutel Plus who's trying to run a break even business. We, our committee and Salisado Plus, and I'm sure the staff absolutely looking for directions. direction. Now going forward, and you've heard this before, We have a huge waterfront that's used exclusively for these bikes and for the ferry companies and there should be revenue associated with that. Again, I'm sort of separating and saying, Ambassador program over here and now where's your revenue going to come from? And that, frankly, seems pretty obvious, we had proposed in the past the priority bike queuing system, I'm pretty confident that would generate Order of magnitude, $50,000. We didn't do it this year. We don't have to look back. My suggestion going forward, do it. There's synergies associated with this. because it turns out that early in the day you're parking more bikes, and later in the day you're queuing more bikes, and so you can kind of shift some staff, and that simply doesn't exist this year. And let me give you a plug to the guys in the Orange Best who are either funded or educated by the ferry and the bike people. They're doing a great job. Those kids are doing a great job. They just have a really crummy system. Those people have to stand in line, they have to manage a line that's 500 plus people. That's not a great job. I'd rather park bikes and give people recommendations on where to have a beer. or a sandwich as opposed to managed people who are staying. But they are doing a really good job for what they've been given. Thank you. additional valet parking, and increase valet parking fees. I mean, those are sort of two obvious things, right? Either increase your inventory or increase the price per unit of your inventory. I also think that there's real synergies with the Chamber, and I know that Deb's working on that. I'll just give you an example of that. Thank you. half a dozen merchants in town have come to the ambassadors that we'd like to sponsor you for a week and have you give out kind of coupons or menus or stuff like that. I think there's real opportunity there. and there may be opportunities with synergies around the chamber kiosk. So I think going forward, there's, A lot of good things that can come and there's To me, there's an extra $100,000 there, if not $300,000, particularly if you look at that first number. But that doesn't help this year. We're well into July. So what's the take home message? The take home message is that the numbers were up 20%. I'm the slightest idea. if that's where we're going to be. What I do believe is that's a hard number. Sometimes we get these numbers from the ferry about how many they board. I don't know what to do with those numbers. Or we get some anecdotal thing from a consultant, whatever. That's a hard number. Those kids are counting. They don't miss too many bikes. So the question is, is that a consistent hard number? How long does that last? So on and so forth. June was not that wonderful a month from a weather standpoint, but it's a hard number. I just don't know directionally what it means. Bike queuing has clearly benefited from more ferries, but it means a huge issue from a sidewalk congestion standpoint. On the weekends, we do not as citizens have use of those sidewalks, period. Full stop, don't have them, it's jammed, and it's not fun. Bike parking has many facets and enforcement is the key. If we can't enforce our laws, we have nothing. That really is our main arrow in the quiver. And the council may wish to direct staff and give them, as I said, some optionality on the near-term stuff. Um, really could use just a sort of what's your call on the ambassadors for the rest of the year. Dial them back, keep them at the level, In an ideal world, we'd have them back to the 20% they were at before. They've already had to make some trade-offs, but I think our committee would say, that they're serving an important role you and that we should be using all the arrows to make the shortfall. But if we have to eat $25,000 this year, as we did last year, it's the trade off we would recommend, but we're not the city council. We're recommending people. And then lastly, and this is, you know, may not be for tonight, but we're volunteering. We think that the city needs a holistic, comprehensive bike parking plan that perhaps as Council Member Withy has said in the past, this is all we got. We got no more. And so when this is full, then Something else has to happen. And I don't mean to say that at the end of the day, what you're gonna do is send people on. The animal, if you're a believer as I am in capitalism, the animal instincts of the Adam Smiths of the world will take over and you'll have more people figuring out a way back. And the next thing you know, they'll have an extra ferry that's private. And the next thing you know, they'll be staging down in Fort Baker or something or something. But until we say enough, We can't take anymore. in a logical, organized way, focused on parking, I don't think that we're going to release the animal instincts of people who can help us find other ways to accommodate the people who want to come and visit our terrific town. So I'll stop there and happy to answer any questions. |
| 01:41:37.07 | Jill Hoffman | I have a couple questions straight off the bat. That's okay with you guys. Do you know what they're charging for the bike return per bike? the guys down at Locust Street |
| 01:41:48.88 | Ed Potch | I wanna say $11, but I bet the cheap. $12. |
| 01:41:52.10 | Jill Hoffman | $12 per bank? It just went up. |
| 01:41:53.08 | Ed Potch | It just went out. It didn't go up. It was $12. I had it wrong. |
| 01:41:58.79 | Jill Hoffman | Okay. Um, |
| 01:42:08.42 | Jill Hoffman | What was the, and I seem to recall that The bike companies, And the ferry companies contributed money in the past to the ambassador program, but they didn't this year. Have I got that right? for the bike queuing or by missing up in the queue. |
| 01:42:20.88 | Ed Potch | I believe that's the case, but in fairness, they This started, my recollection is, three years ago, they contributed money for managing the queue. Thank you. |
| 01:42:33.82 | Unknown | Okay. |
| 01:42:34.72 | Ed Potch | So it really wasn't money for Saucedo Plus or ambassadors. There was no such thing. The Vice Committee didn't conjure it up until, I think it was four years ago at first start. |
| 01:42:37.15 | Unknown | I know. |
| 01:42:42.97 | Ed Potch | But, So it wasn't that they contributed to Saucer Plus and the ambassadors in the past and they didn't. It was always for the bike queuing. And those kids in the orange vest, and there's a bunch of them, are funded, I assume, by those associated revenues. |
| 01:43:00.75 | Jill Hoffman | how did we do bike queuing last year? Because there seemed to be a big improvement last year, and the system was... |
| 01:43:09.60 | Ed Potch | So what was done last year, which was kind of a collaboration between the ambassadors and the ferry folks, was that we had boarding group numbers, not frankly unlike Southwest Airlines. And you were given a boarding group number that started with one, and each one was a |
| 01:43:28.11 | Unknown | but |
| 01:43:32.27 | Ed Potch | And the really busy days when they're boarding upwards of 3,000 bikes, They have up to boarding group 30 And then the boarding group number was posted next to the chamber kiosk. and you could access it with a Wi-Fi link. with the internet. And so you were given a card, and on the back of the card was a QR code if you scanned it. you could see when your boarding group number was. And you want to make sure that essentially wouldn't come until it was time for your boarding group number to board. And that's how they got rid of the big long line because there was no reason to stand in the line because if your number wasn't called, you weren't going to be getting on the ferry anyway, so there was no advantage to standing in the line. So that was the system from last year. That was the proposed system from our committee for this year. with a free version and a $2 version and a $5 version, I think it was, I'm not sure. that was gonna generate some revenue because people were in a hurry would just say, I'll pay five bucks and I wanna get in the queue now At any rate, so it was a boarding group number system last year. And prior to that it was a attempt to say I want to be in the 320 fair, 350 fair. That was extremely difficult. I wasn't involved, but I understand that was quite difficult to manage for a number of reasons. And this year, the system is simply weighed in line. |
| 01:45:05.78 | Jill Hoffman | Okay. Any other questions? Can I follow up on the three card? Yep. |
| 01:45:11.33 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 01:45:11.97 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 01:45:11.99 | Joe Weiner | I'm going to ask you a question. Ned, as we went over last night, when you say there's no queuing system, there's no boarding system like you just described, but there are people that have been hired both by the bike companies and the ferry that manage the line, correct? |
| 01:45:25.47 | Ed Potch | Yeah, and I frankly think that they're doing a really good job managing the line. |
| 01:45:26.50 | Joe Weiner | I just want to be. OK, I just want, but it's just that there's no numeric system and that kind of thing that you did. And do we know, and maybe the chief wants to comment on it, because I've heard, I mean, certainly, you know, and I don't know. I don't know the data. I know last year I saw some lines that were pretty far, and I get some anecdotal information now that with the addition of the extra ferries and the faster boarding, that the lines are moving quickly. So I'm a little unclear about what the data was. |
| 01:45:33.64 | Ed Potch | that you didn't. |
| 01:45:56.91 | Joe Weiner | Are the lines longer this year or shorter this year? Do we have some sense of that? |
| 01:46:01.35 | Ed Potch | So the lines are much, much, much, much longer. this year. but not much longer than the year before when there was no system in place. |
| 01:46:12.49 | Adam Politzer | Well, I need to step in there because, you know. |
| 01:46:15.79 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:46:15.93 | Joe Weiner | I just, I just, we said. |
| 01:46:16.16 | Adam Politzer | Yeah, I mean, the reality is we've had some days, the Sunday that the chief mentioned, and this past Saturday that Ed has showed photos of where the lines have been equal to two years ago. I think we've had situations last year when Blue and Gold's boat broke down and situations like that where we've had pretty significant lines. |
| 01:46:16.98 | Ray Withy | Yeah. |
| 01:46:45.02 | Adam Politzer | But for the most part, either due to the weather or due to the additional boats, we have not had those super long lines that we've had definitely three years ago because they have brought in the boats. And I've been down there on three weekends during the month of June, purposely to look at what the lines were on each one of those occasions coming there around 430. The lines were basically nonexistent. That doesn't mean that there aren't lines and we haven't had lines, but I can also tell you when I go down there Monday through Friday up until July 4th, I wasn't here on July 4th and been out of town, but prior to July 4th, I didn't want to see a queuing issue down there. So I know that I am working closely with the chief, and I know the chief is working closely with South Slido Plus. But we've had very few days where we've had a queuing issue. But on those two days, and I think the chief and I, based on our conversation, saw this past Saturday as an actual perfect storm, a perfect storm of the number of bikes that came into town, through town, and then came back into town in the combination. So I'm sure the Chief can expand on his and his staff's experiences. It doesn't say that we can predict what the future is going to hold as the days grow warmer and longer. But I think based on what we've experienced so far, it's the city staff's position that the district has responded to dealing with the queuing with a simple action of putting in more vessels. |
| 01:48:33.71 | Ray Withy | I'll wait for my comments. |
| 01:48:35.10 | Joe Weiner | you |
| 01:48:35.18 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 01:48:35.23 | Joe Weiner | Thank you. Can I ask another question on Q&A? And other than the money about queuing, and we understand that it could potentially bring some more money in, but I think most of us agree, and I think the bike and pet committee, our first priority is managing the congestion downtown, and we want to break even, but that's our key goal. And if we put money aside on the queuing, I'm trying to envision, so if we had a queuing system, we now have people with bikes sitting there. Would the bikes, if we had a queuing system, they'd have to be parked, so would that add to our overflow problem? And then what would happen to the bikes and the people with the queuing system? Maybe there's some benefit. But I'm just wondering, rather than standing in line, what would be done? Maybe you give us just a little insight into that. Again, putting the money outside, because we know that we'd probably make some additional funds on that. |
| 01:49:29.16 | Ed Potch | Right. So first of all, I agree with Adam. The fact that there are more ferries coming. and also, as we discussed last night, appears to be some effort by the ferry staff to help the bikes get on the ferry is a net positive. I would really not want to think about what we'd have experienced so far. if that wasn't the case. There's more ferries. To me, there's a rich irony there. It turns out they make money. from taking people on the ferries. You'd think they'd be motivated to take as many as possible But I don't run a ferry, so I don't know the details of that. But the. So start, there's more ferries and that's absolutely a good thing. Our experience last year is that when you give people a queuing number, And they say, well, roughly when you think I can get on, and you tell them, and it's probably going to be two hours. Um, they tend to go and figure something else out. They either valet park and pay us $3 and then wander around town or they ride up north a little bit or they find something else to do. But they quickly find that there's no reason to hang around there. because hanging around just doesn't get them on the boat any faster. So the advantage of having a queuing system absent the associated revenue. is simply to dissipate the lines. and to give more optionality to the people standing there because they literally, I mean, there's just no point in standing. So that's why I'm not I'm not speculating. I was down there last year. The lines were very short because there was no point in doing it. In fact, we would ask people to leave. They'd say, well, I want to be in line. Well, you've group 20, we're boarding group seven. There's no point in standing here. go someplace else. Also addressing your question, we had problems with people going into Gabrielson Park and into being at El Mar with their bike and sitting there and picnicking. which gets back to we have to enforce our laws. So the answer is, what will they do? They'll do something else. But from the committee's standpoint, nothing is worse than blocking our sidewalks and standing in a line that's uncomfortable for them. There's no option. They can't leave. or they lose their space in the queue. All this having been said, in my opinion as it relates to the queue, This ship sailed for this year. I don't, you know, it's kind of well into July. July and August are our big months. By the first week of September, it's gonna be over. I wouldn't, I just would suggest the council not, aside from next year, spend a lot of time on what do you do about a queuing system, or gee, we should've or could've, This or that. It is what it is at this point. I think. And to have the ambassador program ramp up and take that on, and then you're going to have to sell those tickets we had planned to sell in the T2 machines and to ramp all that up in the period of time that we have left, I think is not a good, in my opinion, is not a good use of the council's time. So I, and I know the committee feels strongly that a queuing system makes a whole lot more sense than a line up to Spinnaker that ties up the sidewalks. But that's an interesting conversation we can have in the fall about how we handle things next year. Right now I would suggest that we focus on this stuff. |
| 01:53:00.73 | Unknown | Yes. Okay. THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 01:53:04.69 | Ray Withy | Okay. I want, I'm trying to think of the best way to answer these series of questions. Is it possible to put the chief's presentation back up? Would that be something that would be easy to do? Because there's a slide, not that I'm particularly interested in the numbers, it's the only way I can answer the question, ask the question, is by having a slide in front of me. Sorry. |
| 01:53:39.27 | Jill Hoffman | Is that the slide? |
| 01:53:41.12 | Ray Withy | No, it was the one for, but that one would do. I need it up on the screen. |
| 01:54:04.72 | Ray Withy | I've got to tell you, I'm really confused about this line. Because I'm hearing from some people that the line's worse, and I'm hearing from others the line's better, and I don't know what the answer is. |
| 01:54:16.12 | John Rohrbacher | Thank you. |
| 01:54:16.23 | Unknown | is an |
| 01:54:16.70 | John Rohrbacher | I'm going to go. |
| 01:54:18.69 | Ray Withy | Yeah. |
| 01:54:21.62 | John Rohrbacher | So while that's loading, I'm going to get a couple of comments in. I came into town on Saturday for the express purpose of looking at the line and I was here about 3.30. which is just the time I picked, looking for something in the middle of late afternoon. And As I went through the parking lot, I wanted to see what the line looked like, I wanted to see what the parking racks looked like, and I wanted to see how John and Lisa were doing with their uh, bike return program. And again, I'm guessing it's around 3.30, give or take a few minutes. And maybe a boat had just left with a bunch of passengers, but at 3.30, the line only went to the Chamber of Commerce kiosk. There was nothing past that at that moment. As I've said before, in these presentations, and Ed alludes to it as well, a lot of this is literally a snapshot. I mean, five minutes after I left, another whole boat's worth the people could have showed up. why they chose to show up after that and create that line that you saw, because you can't argue with the picture. That's what the line looked like. It was a real line. And so we don't know that. You know, did they all go do something else because it was a really nice day and then come back? and get in line at the same time? Would that have changed if there was a queuing system? I don't know. And I did check with both Blue and Gold and Golden Gate Ferry, and they are using a reservation system that Blue and Gold developed last year and they asked you know they they wanted that as part of their queuing plan for this year and At some point I will reach back out to them. We had agreed that we would be doing our are you know, catch-ups after the end of July and see how things were going right at that point, because the End of July, early August is a really busy time for all of us. And so we wanted to get some experience behind what we're doing with all these people, because there's so many people involved in this, and all of them trying really hard to make this work. And we went into the season with, after doing a number of budget reviews and the city manager and I met with Deb Votches, the executive director of SAW Pseudo Plus, is she created the budget projections and She's really good at it. It's really remarkable how close the numbers are coming, the real life numbers are coming to her projections just based on a half year pilot program last year And, but one of the commitments that we made at that point with her, was that we would be looking at the payment for services every week, every two weeks as we process payroll requests and look at what revenue looked like and look like what expenses look like, because people are expensive, the payroll's expensive, and with the thought that if necessary, we would make some adjustments. And as Ed alluded to, some of that's already started. Lieutenant Gregory and I, we had a meeting with Deb about 10 days ago or so and said, You know, we're at that point where it's starting to creep up a little bit, and we have to give some thought to how July is going to unfold with revenue. And because our goal is to try and bring this in at zero. and we've made that commitment. And we did meet, as it relates to, referred to, we did meet as a group, with a representative of the ferry companies, a representative for the bike companies, and Saucedo Plus to hash out what this would look like and that we would be coming back to them, depending on how the year looked like it was gonna zero out or not, and ask them for additional money. But remember, part of that incentive for them was if they were to tell people when they rent their bikes to come to Sausalito and pay for parking, That additional revenue is gonna offset any end of year deficit. It should come closer to zeroing out. But again, that's all based on how many people show up. We've had some unseasonably cold weather, but then as soon as we get a nice day, wham, we saw what happened on the weekend. It's pretty busy. Thank you. There's a lot to it and it's hard to grab any frame of this and say this represents the whole season. All I know is that we need to continue to work just like we're doing and bringing the best product forward to ease congestion, manage these people, because there's so many good people trying to make this happen right. And Vice Mayor, you wanted a particular slide |
| 01:59:00.23 | Ray Withy | Yeah, if you could go to the slides with the numbers on it, and then we'll find some. Well, if you could go to the slide, we need to go to the slide that had the July 10th numbers, just that one day numbers. Yeah, this is. |
| 01:59:04.45 | John Rohrbacher | The first one? |
| 01:59:15.45 | John Rohrbacher | This is the 4th of July weekend? |
| 01:59:17.16 | Ray Withy | Yeah, you had a slide that had July 10th on it, I think. |
| 01:59:17.19 | John Rohrbacher | Thank you. You had a slide that had July 10th on it. The buses or the boats. Or maybe. One day. Yeah. |
| 01:59:22.73 | Ray Withy | or maybe Yeah, you had one day, you had numbers of how many actually got on the ferry. Right. |
| 01:59:32.21 | John Rohrbacher | Right, so the ambassadors counted that number, and like Ed said, the ambassadors get a hard count. |
| 01:59:34.98 | Ray Withy | Right. Okay. That's what I want. And can we tell from the other number? There's a piece of data that I would ideally like for that day, which is the number of tickets you sold. |
| 01:59:50.98 | John Rohrbacher | Well, we know that. We can get that. |
| 01:59:51.63 | Ray Withy | Because what I want to try and understand is how many bikes are getting on the ferry that haven't parked? |
| 01:59:59.23 | John Rohrbacher | about the engine. |
| 02:00:00.39 | Ray Withy | That's what I want to try and get to. |
| 02:00:01.34 | John Rohrbacher | We could go back one for you and |
| 02:00:02.92 | Ray Withy | And so can we sort of unravel that from the numbers? |
| 02:00:06.26 | John Rohrbacher | So in these slides here, this one and this one, when we show tickets issued and income, those are all hard numbers taken from those paid kiosk machines. And so they report by the day. So we can query that any way we want. So if you were looking for a single day here. Okay, so go back to that one. |
| 02:00:25.84 | Ray Withy | Okay, so go back to that one, John. |
| 02:00:28.00 | John Rohrbacher | No, one more. |
| 02:00:28.96 | Ray Withy | Yeah, no, this one. So you've got bike counts at station one. So if you look at 200 for June for 2016, 36,330 bikes came into town. Rental bikes. Um, 11 15,580 tickets were issued. So, |
| 02:00:56.62 | Unknown | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 02:00:56.87 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:00:56.97 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:00:57.02 | Ray Withy | TODAY. So does that mean that two-thirds of the bikes that came into town didn't park? |
| 02:01:03.52 | Unknown | half a month, first of all. |
| 02:01:07.25 | John Rohrbacher | No, but here's the month total. |
| 02:01:09.26 | Ray Withy | Yeah. |
| 02:01:09.58 | John Rohrbacher | So the month total is not the same as these two comparisons. It's a little bit... |
| 02:01:13.53 | Ray Withy | Okay, I'm just looking at the month total. |
| 02:01:14.30 | John Rohrbacher | You're right. It does say that. And so as we look at the dailies that we get... |
| 02:01:19.65 | Ray Withy | Right, yeah. So is that about right? A third, only a third of the bikes that are coming in are parking. |
| 02:01:21.02 | John Rohrbacher | I'm sorry. third |
| 02:01:22.37 | Ray Withy | Thank you. The bikes that are... little more because you count the young people every and you get quite a bit of them. Roughly, yes. |
| 02:01:33.81 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:01:33.83 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:01:33.85 | Ray Withy | OK, so at least half of the bikes that are coming in are not parking. |
| 02:01:33.95 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:01:41.25 | John Rohrbacher | I would agree on that. |
| 02:01:41.98 | Ray Withy | Okay, okay, and For the bikes that are queuing up and filling up the sidewalk, those occasions during the day when that occurs, is it mainly the bikes that have just been milling around, or is it all bikes, whether they were parked or not? |
| 02:02:03.24 | John Rohrbacher | And I don't know that we know that exactly, but so we can go to like, you know, we have a good number of how many parks, And then we see the line and we know what that's made of, people trying to get in line. Some of those people did not park. Some of them, frankly, because we knew at 3.30 on Saturday, for instance, The parking wasn't full, it was It was a good sell though there's a lot of people in the parking But there was no line yet at 3.30, or a very short line, compared to this, by all means. And then... when we were looking at these numbers, a little bit of the uncounted, those will make up some of that difference that you're asking about, where did the other 50% go? And some we just can't tell from the, Thank you. you know, sort of anecdotal we get from people at the north end of town saying they've seen a lot more bikes. So some people are just spending more time on their bicycle. We don't know all the numbers that make that up, but altogether they make up that 50% or so that aren't parking and paying any money. It's a conglomeration of all those things. |
| 02:03:09.61 | Jill Hoffman | Yes, Ed looks like he has something to say. |
| 02:03:13.17 | Ed Potch | Go ahead. Just to be responsive to the question so I think that consistently if you used one third is the paid number of people who come into town. It's a pretty good number. Secondly, it's important to understand as her points out that the kids under 12 don't pay. So that's a little bit of a thing. There's another reality that You know, just eyeballing at 15% or so, people are blowing right through Sausalito and they keep going. Now, these aren't spandex folks or local riders. Thank you. And then we have free parking north of town. And then we have illegal parking. And somehow that to will total The number, with one exception, I just want to point this out. The length, when the line gets long, It costs the city money in valet parking. What I mean by that is if you have one hour to spend in Sausalito, in the lines an hour long. you're not going to valet park your bike. You're going to get in the line. how much that contributes to the lack of of L.A. parking, it's hard to know, but it's very real because you see people coming in and saying, what's that line? You say, well, that's the line. They say, how long is it? They say, it's over an hour. okay dear let's go and get in the line because we got to get back. So if you look at what, if you will, cannibalizes your valet parking, it's a combination of people who drive through town, people who park free north of town, people who park illegally, kids under 12, and people who just have to get in the line, or when there was no line, Some people just ride right onto the ferry. Thank you. So there's always that piece. You're never going to capture 100%, but we're certainly not getting close to 50% yet. Okay. I got to see. |
| 02:05:00.28 | Jill Hoffman | Okay. Yes, her? No. Yes, Tom. |
| 02:05:06.10 | Joe Weiner | Q&A, and it's somewhat of a request. I take it, as we said before, there's different information about how long these lines are and what the causes are and when they are, and I know when I go by there, it's all different. Is there a way, I suspect not, that we can look at what these lines have been, and certainly, I know Ed said that we're not looking to institute a Q&A system this year, but we may for next year, and we need data. Data is really very helpful to us. And maybe there's a way that we could pick certain points of days and in the weekends and times that we could measure what the line is. It's not that hard. You know, you could say the line went up to the X point or went around the bend and is up to Spinnaker. Because I think it's really important for us to start looking at the length of those lines. And if we institute a queuing system next year, then we can compare it. Has it done any better? Or if we do anything else to help the line. So I think it'd be important to try to start measuring that line if we can. |
| 02:06:03.74 | Ed Potch | So I agree, and a couple of things. So I'm down there over half the time, at some point, typically around 3,000. in the afternoon because I just take a break and I blow down there a little more time on the weekends. volunteering. I'm not sure. So a couple things. One is, there has been, I have not seen a queue on the weekdays, I'm only seeing a queue on the weekends. Now, we're getting into the serious time of the year. This coming weekend, if you look at the weather forecast, I'm predicting a pretty decent queue. But last year, or no, two years ago, we had queues in the middle of the week that were breathtaking. So the more ferries is a good thing. in that clearly and assisting with the loading. Secondly, this is sort of a classic Sausalito Plus that you ask them to do. Staffing is down, but I think they could handle this. Just, they don't even have to count, just take photographs. They're standing there, they just take photographs down towards Spinnaker. And they can get this data for you. If you remember last year at this time, we had no year over year data. Now we're looking at June over June and we're looking at hard numbers. And I completely agree. Without it, you don't have too much. In this case, I don't think you need hard numbers. You need hard photographs and you'll sort of know. And, you know, this typical camera is going to time, you know, date stamp them. And so I think we can come back to the council you know, whenever you want. Again, I don't think queuing is where the focus should be for this year. I think that's a next year thing. But you're right, if we're sitting there in November talking about how we're gonna handle the queue next year, if we don't plan for it now, we're not gonna have Yeah. So I think that's a charge that we can give Solicitor Plus and they can pull it off. |
| 02:07:54.17 | Jill Hoffman | Any other questions? Public comment on this item, bicycle parking. Yes, I see Peter Van Meter approaching, although he has not filled out a card, we will let him speak. |
| 02:08:08.97 | Peter Van Meter | Thank you for the accommodation. Just a question sitting here listening. Why did we not have a queuing system this year? Thank you. It seems so obvious it was a functioning good program the previous year. |
| 02:08:23.10 | Jill Hoffman | that's a good question. |
| 02:08:27.55 | Ray Withy | There is a queuing system. It's just a different system than it was last year. |
| 02:08:32.07 | Joe Weiner | But I almost have to answer. THE END OF |
| 02:08:35.69 | Peter Van Meter | . |
| 02:08:35.77 | Joe Weiner | I don't know. |
| 02:08:35.96 | Peter Van Meter | Let me define the term. I'm talking about a system where they take a ticket, they go away and shop, and come back and get on later. |
| 02:08:36.02 | Joe Weiner | Yeah. Okay. |
| 02:08:37.29 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 02:08:42.17 | Jill Hoffman | All right, good question. Chief or Ed, you want to answer that question? |
| 02:08:47.40 | Adam Politzer | You know, there, as Dr. Fudge shared earlier, we, from the Sausalito Plus and the city staff's perspective, was looking at a queuing system. And with... It evolved from... just a $2 fee to just a $5 fee to a variety of fees to give the customers a very various options. Blue and gold and the district did not support it. And in response to our request, that then they need to come up with a queuing program Their response was we were going to add more ferries and that they would step in and manage the queue and make sure that we don't have a problem. So that was the arrangement. And other than a few Saturdays or Sundays, they have done a good job of managing the line. As the chief shared, they had their app queuing program. Dr. Fatsch and I agree that we don't think that it works. We don't think that it's a good program, and it's not something that I was willing to support. But they're managing it, and so if they want to use it, that's up to them. But just to remind the council, when we had a meeting in May or April whenever we had all the folks here that were angry and you sent them away to work with the chief to work together they made it clear that the district was not going to support our queuing program and so that was that was this this is the result of those discussions |
| 02:10:34.60 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, any other public comment? Yes. THE END OF |
| 02:10:39.77 | Ray Withy | Yeah, the rabbi too. |
| 02:10:41.49 | Jill Hoffman | Yes, Katya, go ahead, and then Jeff Jacob, you're next. Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:10:50.06 | Katya (Public Commenter) | Oh. |
| 02:10:50.36 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:10:50.80 | Katya (Public Commenter) | With all due respect for your program, which I think is fantastic, I really don't understand why the queuing system didn't come about this year either. It seems to me that what you were addressing was the queuing time, et cetera, et cetera, for the Bikers. But what about the quality of their experience in Sausalito? when they're waiting in line And, And. We have restaurants, we have ice cream places, we have stores that they could actually go and visit instead of stressing about getting onto the ferry. So if they have this queuing system and they can find out we've got at least a couple hours Everybody is used to having some sort of standard knowing that they don't have to wait in line anymore. These are pretty normal things in most big cities and even little cities. So I don't understand how that got dropped, I know you just explained it, why would it be just up to the ferry companies and why wouldn't that be an interest in the city. We have hundreds of people waiting in line. And they are getting a really bad image of our town. That's all I can say. |
| 02:12:34.52 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. JEFF JACOB. Thank you. |
| 02:12:36.90 | Katya (Public Commenter) | YOU'RE OUT THERE. |
| 02:12:46.84 | Jeff Jacob | Hello, Officer Farras. I have about $2,000 worth of bicycle tickets in this town. at the moment. So I'm working for you here. right now. not getting credit for them in dollar amounts But that's not what I'm about. Ms. Linda, by the way. Does she have a signed note from her doctor or something? So can I? |
| 02:13:19.68 | Jeff Jacob | The obvious answer to a problem with bicycle parking is, So simple. more. bike racks. not Einstein to figure this out. A bike rack. that occupies the same space as a car can fit, About 40 bikes. Put one every block. now you chief, are saying that you have put that chain around 73 bikes so far, and you plan on doing that more. Our police are supposed to be guardians to serve us and protect us. not to fulfill The desire of Sausalito to not have the town run over And I understand this very well. As an international bed and breakfast host, By Taurus, I get that. I get it. I'm not a couch surfer host anymore for a couple of reasons, but one of the reasons is I was noticing that people would fly here because they saw my picture and description on the internet. Flying is the absolute worst. way to travel for the environment. Are we dealing with climate change here? Do we care about our children? Do we care about our grandchildren? Are we saying that Sausalito is not friendly towards bicycles? That for the anchor outs, there are no bike racks at the turning street, I had a bike taken there. I'd like to know where all the bikes go to after they're seized. Please, let's find out this week what happens to those bikes. that at Schoonmarker's There is no bike rack. Yeah. Galilee Harbor, there is one bike rack that is completely full. There are many ways to discourage this bicycle travel. And it seems to be successful. But, Now I am seeing the silver lining in the cloud, As our Torah portion for this week says, it's about Balaam and Balai. It says that when an adversary comes, I kind of like this bell a little bit more than the old one. That is God bringing us. Does that ring a bell for you? It does, sir. It does. Your time's up. |
| 02:16:04.91 | Unknown | Thank you. So we now have the... |
| 02:16:05.35 | Jeff Jacob | So we now have the right to do what's being done to bicycles, to cars. |
| 02:16:15.87 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:16:19.68 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 02:16:20.09 | Jeff Jacob | Thank you. you And that seems a bit of a paradigm. |
| 02:16:25.32 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. Thank you. Okay, thank you for comments. Any other public comments? See none. |
| 02:16:31.56 | Jeff Jacob | Thanks for Dunphy Park. Thanks for leaving that open for a little while. I appreciate it. |
| 02:16:37.00 | Jill Hoffman | No further public comments. Then back up here to City Council for discussion. If we can have the slide up that Ed had with the sort of asking us for direction I think that might be helpful. |
| 02:16:59.84 | Jill Hoffman | Anybody want to start off with discussion before we get that up? |
| 02:17:12.97 | Jill Hoffman | Anybody wanna start us off or, you know me too? Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Erick. |
| 02:17:19.55 | Ray Withy | Well, let me start. |
| 02:17:25.07 | Ray Withy | I'm down there every single day. I start at 11 o'clock in the morning. on weekends. LATELY I'VE BEEN STAYING THERE UNTIL 6.30. but let me give you the breakdown. THE WAY I OBSERVE IT. YOU HAVE 40 bike routes. on Tracy Way. and the area where the THEIR OWN THE FAMILY IS THE FAMILY That means basically that you could park give or take, we'll say 500, So if you get turnover, you're up to maybe 750. And if you look up that chart there, let's go to Saturday because let's go to the worst scenario. As you saw, there were over 2,350 bikes that came into Sausalito. And yet 2150 were brought back. The cueing idea. And let's get this straight. 12.30, 1 o'clock, 1.30, 2 o'clock, 2.30. You could literally just get on that ferry. There is no line. the line happens when you got the Oklahoma land rush at about 3 o'clock to 3.30 in the afternoon. So it's basically a three hour gap where everybody converges on trying to get back to San Francisco. I see it down there because this Saturday, I never saw so many bikes from all over that came into Sausalito that traveled to Mill Valley and all over. some of them for the reason of Just they didn't want to spend the $3. because if you go to see where the free parking is, that's full. the earliest of all. One of the reasons is when these bike guides come in with 25 bikes to their customers, they take them down there. So literally between 12.30 and 1.30, you've got all these guys coming in with 20 bikes at a time, that fills up all your free parking. So basically, especially Saturday, all your free parking was filled up at about 1.30. So people just kept on going, whether they went to Old Mill Park or anything else. And then at approximately 3 o'clock, 3.30, when everything converged coming into Sausalito to get on the ferry. Okay. Now these ferries have been running every 35 minutes. You basically cannot put another ferry in between it. Because it takes that amount of time to pull in to load and then leave. I'm If you really, let me look at some of my notes here. Most of these fairies attempt to take minimum 150 bikes. So when they bring in these extra bikes, When they bring in these extra ferries, they're not really taking very few passengers. It's all bikes. And if they're only taking 150 bikes, they're not scoring. Believe me, they're not making a lot of money. Because the way the ferry system works is, as you have more people and more bikes going on that ferry, you have to add additional workers on that ferry. And that's the balance. But what I saw was between three and six o'clock, there was that long line. In fact, one of the ferries at one time took 199 bikes. All right, so we're talking anywhere, usually from an additional three to four extra ferries. And why I say three or four, If the Giants are playing in San Francisco, they deliberately bring that ferry over rather than sitting at the ballpark. to use to take bicycles back. By 6 o'clock or by 6.30 at night, it's empty. Now, Sunday, there was a good example. I counted at 2.30 in the afternoon, 17 bike racks that were empty on Tracy Way. Why? Because the weather was cold and it was windy. We only have approximately six more weeks. And basically it's not during the week because they don't even fill it up during the week. It's basically on the weekend. And you're never going to stop that no matter what kind of queuing your system is when you've got 2,150 bikes trying to converge. And I guarantee you out of that 2,150, if you add the numbers, most of it's taking place with Blue and Gold and Golden Gate Ferry after 2.30 in the afternoon. And that's why I called it the Oklahoma land rush. No matter what you do, you're going to have that long line. But it isn't something that is continuing all day. It's a three hour gap. I think I'll come back. |
| 02:22:34.46 | Jill Hoffman | THE END OF THE END OF THE Do you guys want to go there? THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 02:22:44.62 | Ray Withy | So let's try and focus in what we wanted of this, you know, the specific issue that the chief put in front of us, which was do we want to have, you know, more parking, additional parking? I think the chief recommended that he's not really asking for that, as I understood that. He has authority under an emergency situation to put bike racks out there if he feels that there's a health and safety issue, I assume. And I'm assuming that if his whatever you decide, Chief, is fine with me. And I fully also understand that we're on a path now this summer that we just need to get through it. I like the idea of collecting more data about lines because we would not be able to have the quality of the discussion we've had today if we didn't have last year's numbers. Right, so getting the numbers is really useful. Fundamentally, as Ed alluded to, things as what I've said before, and now we've got a number. Our downtown is not going to get any bigger. We can't... successfully accommodate by any operational means that has so far been presented. to remove 21 over 2,000 bikes in a day without their cause and severe congestion. That's what. That's what the numbers say. You cannot, unless you If you have 2100 bikes a certain, not throughout the whole day, but a proportion of 2,300 bikes that are between two and six that are trying to get out. There is... I can't see any operational system that actually would reduce congestion with those numbers. So that says to me, the numbers are too big. And I therefore can't see next year, it seems to me, that I would like to see us move to a system whereby, and I know it's going to be chaos for a while, I personally don't think that... the How can I best put this? No, let me back up. I realize I've only got a little bit of time left. Let me back up. I was going down a path, which isn't going to make a lot of sense. Yes. I know the Farrah's don't like this, but fundamentally, this should be a very simple reservation system. You buy a ticket for a particular ferry, If you have a bike and if you want to get a bike on a ferry, you have a ticket that's actually ferry time number. So on. And you are authorized to put a bike on it. And if you don't have that ticket, you can't park in Sausalito. There's no linkage between parking and getting on the ferry. And there needs to be. I think that's the only way to reduce congestion. Because quite frankly, I think it is intolerable, both for the visitor and for the resident, to have a big long line with families and visitors sitting in there for two hours, standing there for two hours. That's just not right. That's just not sensible. And we've got to figure out an operational way to actually make sure that that doesn't happen. Now, I have no magic solutions. I don't know what they are. But one thing I know is the reason why this year we didn't have a queuing system, I believe, is because we linked it to extra money being paid And we actually, the ferry companies, push back on that because they didn't want a preferential, some of the customers preferentially paying and jump into the front of the line. That's why the ferry is pushed back. Well, if we'd have taken the money away from that and just asked the question, let's have a system like the number system that you used last year that you didn't charge extra for. If we'd have just used that, I believe the congestion would be lower downtown this year. |
| 02:27:30.73 | Jill Hoffman | All right, hold on. It's still Tom's turn. |
| 02:27:34.78 | Joe Weiner | Thank you all again for working on this. I do agree with that. I think enforcement is the top priority for a couple of reasons. We have to keep that downtown clear, and we'll know what the actual parking demands are when we do that. I think it's pretty important to get a handle on that early. We started so that the message gets back in a big way, in an immediate way, to the bike companies, the ramifications. And when someone's locked up, they're going to go back to these guys, and I think that's important. The second reason I think it's important, too, is we have to know how much money we're going to be able to get from enforcement. Hopefully... we're going to do some enforcement and it's going to drop way down, but maybe not. And that's one of the points on Ed's slide. That's one thing. We'll see how much money we get. My guess is as we do more and more enforcement, it's going to be effective and we'll get less and less revenue. So I think that's important and we're on the right path there. I think I agree that we're not in a position, and I accept the chief's recommendation, that we're not allowing additional parking. but it's very important that the chief give clear direction to Sausalito Plus and be prepared when that overflow happens that we should have a plan for that. Whatever we're sending them along, if we have additional parking, whatever that is, and the council should probably know what that is or have some ideas on that. And on the queuing thing, we really have to look at it. We've said we can't do anything about it this year, but we have to get data for next year. And we have to start thinking of creative solutions. One thing we have to realize is we have to go back that this line is created by the ferry and bike companies. It's not our problem, it's their problem. When Lappert's has its line for hamburgers coming out, we don't hire people to manage that line. I mean, it's a little bit strange. We have to do it. We're going to have to work with them. We're going to have to work with them. But, I mean, we have to continue to look at and realize that we have to push back on them for them to figure out what the problem is with the queuing and get it together. We've done it with the finance part of it, and they're paying for it. But they have to start. We have to maybe help them with some of the solutions. But it's their responsibility to manage that line. They're going on the ferry, and they're using our property. And one of the things he mentioned is charging them for it. But we have more to do on that. So I appreciate it all. I think because management's the first one, I think we, you know, I'd like to see Sausalito Plus work to get its expenses down, but I wouldn't want to diminish any of the services. I think it's really important. And going forward, it's still important to know what Sausalito Plus does, what the ambassadors does do for us. And we've gotten data on that and we know it's very important. And, you know, we can explore the volunteers, but we can find other ways. But I think in the end, to me, my priority is to make sure that we're managing the traffic down there and the bike congestion downtown. |
| 02:30:27.65 | Jill Hoffman | So, um. I would like to echo a lot of what's been already set up here. Thanks for your hard work, by the way, and everybody. THE Bike and Ped Committee and South Dakota Plus and Police Department, everybody. In the city, trying to get get us to the point where we have a manageable program again this year. So the first thing is the bike racks. Yes, if we need overflow bike racks, you guys have our authority to do whatever and support whatever you feel is best. You know, I do agree with Tom and with Ray about what our maximum number is for bikes in town. And I think we've reached it. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE BIKE AND PED COMMITTEE PROBABLY WANT TO LOOK AT NEXT YEAR what our maximum number is for bikes in town. And I think we've reached it, and I think one of the things that the Bike and Ped Committee probably want to look at next year is reduction programs about how we can reduce the number or stabilize the number of bikes coming into town. I feel like we've met our, during the high season, we've met our max. And clearly, the ferry companies and the bike companies have no interest whatsoever in partnering with us to solve that problem. They have a problem imposing their business plan on our town, yet refusing to support it financially in our efforts, our Herculean efforts to manage this impact on our town that has made our streets impassable and our sidewalks impassable. And despite the successes we've had, they still continue to thwart our efforts, especially with regard to the bike, very successful, I might add, bike queuing system that we have developed. The reason that we were charging for it was because the direction to bike and ped is that, and Sausage Plus, is that it'd be a zero cost to the city. And I am am emphatic about that I don't think that the city has any business and the residents have no responsibility to support the business plan of the bike companies. And so that's why I feel very strongly that Saucel Plus needs to be a zero cost to the resident. On the other hand, I think we have to keep the level of service there. So this is why we have this shortfall is because we want to have a high level of service and a high level of management from Saucel Plus, but we're not getting any financial support from the bike and ferry companies who are imposing this problem on our town. In fact, they're depriving us of sources of income um THE COUNTRY. WE ARE NOT GETTING to me. And despite the successes of Saucelio Plus, we still have these businesses who are actually impeding our efforts to support financially at a zero cost to the resident. So, you know, these are the options that we look at going forward. Do we increase the cost of the bike parking? Do we charge additional fees in some other way? I don't know, but these are all on the table, I think, for how we go forward. I'm glad that the ferry I give everybody else extra time, so I'm going to give myself a couple extra minutes. I'm exercising my authority. So, um, Here's the other thing, too. So it's great that the ferries are bringing in more ferries to get the bikes out of town, but the negative of that is... we have more ferry traffic in town than we had anticipated. And so we've doubled the size of our ferries. I've had complaints from people at the Yacht Club that there's two ferries docked at the ferry landing at one time. you |
| 02:33:59.97 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:34:00.04 | Jill Hoffman | I've got pictures. Okay, I don't want to argue with her, and you can certainly respond, but I'll show you. I've got them on my phone right here. I'll bring it up right now. Yes, yes, multiple times I have received reports from the Yacht Club that there are two ferries docked at the thing. I'm not talking about the government gate very well. Okay, all right, let's not argue. Okay, but so this is of concern with me as well, that we have this never ending volume of increase of people coming through our town, and that we have more and more congestion in our downtown core. |
| 02:34:09.79 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:34:17.03 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:34:17.42 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:34:20.96 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:34:35.65 | Jill Hoffman | These are all matters of concern. So I've given you direction on staffing and budget. I think it should be a net zero. I think if it looks like we're gonna be at a deficit though, I don't wanna cut service. I want us to go have very serious conversations with the ferry companies and the bicycle companies about making up that deficit. And yes, I think we should address a more holistic approach, not just the bike parking, but bike volumes in Sausalito going forward, yes. |
| 02:35:08.97 | Ray Withy | Well, Katja, to answer your question, There's a turnover that takes place around 3 o'clock, 2.30, 3 o'clock in the afternoon. As we get into the longer days, it stretches a little bit. We usually speak to the people coming in with the bikes and we explain to them, the later you get on a ferry, the better off you're going to be when they see the lines. So they do go in there and they do park. All right? So that isn't lost. The other thing to keep in mind, besides the spaces that we have, on Tracy way. You have approximately about 145 free spaces further down. Now, Scarpazi took about 145. You've got the trident that handles 100. so there's 350 alone right there and just keep in mind this all takes place between three and six Stacy and I worked Fourth of July after the fireworks. When you have a convergence after the fireworks, you have hundreds of cars trying to get out at one time. Same thing with the bicycles. They're converging at one time. Whatever queuing system, whatever system you want, when you have 2,100 bikes trying to get on the ferry, you're going to have a jam log. And the other thing, getting away from the bikes, I saw a sign on a bus today. And it says, this bus saves 60 cars. So can you imagine with the amount of people coming in by bikes if they took their automobiles, what kind of a town? We'll have it like we had it 15 years ago on the weekends where it's bumper to bumper. Then you'll see the residents really scream. |
| 02:37:01.44 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Thanks, Herb. I wanted to just add that, you know, this is a really difficult problem. We've got a lot of people working on it. They're doing a fantastic job. The ambassadors, the bike and ped committee, our police department, volunteer, all staff generally. There's a lot of people putting a lot of work in. I also wanted to call out the Scarposis because this is a good thing, you know, to put a staging station in. It's a hundred, potentially, you know, once they, if they can get beefed up a bit more, a couple of hundred bikes possibly that are not in the downtown. It's getting bikes out of the downtown that we need to do so that, and getting, so that people can get rid of their bikes so they can actually spend time and enjoy the downtown and shop and have a good visitor experience, as Katia said. So anyway, thank you to everybody and thank you for everybody who's actually trying to come up with creative solutions, because it's hard work. |
| 02:38:05.40 | Jill Hoffman | All right. Good. Okay, that's it for, yeah, that's it for item 6A. Moving on to item 6A. 6B, yeah, you guys want to take a break. We haven't had a break yet. So we're going to take a five-minute break. My apologies to the next item. But that's it. We have one more discussion item, and then that's it. All right. |
| 02:38:28.50 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 02:38:28.60 | Unknown | Good night. |
| 02:38:29.26 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 02:38:29.33 | Jill Hoffman | WE'RE PRETTY We're back in session. We have with our last business item rocketing through the agenda tonight. Item 6A, discussion to consider adopting a moratorium on allowing banks and financial services, comma, retail uses in the commercial residential zone and yes Danny you're up again. Welcome back. |
| 02:38:55.03 | Danny Castro | Thank you. Thank you, Mayor Hoffman, members of the council. Again, this is a discussion to consider adopting a moratorium on allowing banks and financial services retail uses in the CR zone, which is a mixed commercial and residential zone, which is largely in part Caledonia Street and the surrounding area. Here's a zoning map which shows the entire city and the area that's boxed is the location in which we're discussing. Here's a close-up of the commercial residential zone. It is all of Caledonia Street, the side streets that run across Caledonia, Johnson, Pine, Tourney, Locust, Lido, Bee, and Napa, as well as the portion of Bridgeway that fronts Caledonia to the east. |
| 02:39:49.86 | Danny Castro | To give you some background on this issue, on June 21st, the city council meeting the City Council received a presentation on the land uses that are allowed in the commercial residential zoning districts And the city council, I should back up, the purpose of that meeting was to discuss some concerns that were raised that there were office conversions that were occurring or were about to occur that prompted perhaps a review of the land uses on Caledonia Street. Also, a petition was circulating as well on that street indicating concerns for conversions to office type uses. The Council received the presentation and then agreed by consensus to direct staff to conduct a comprehensive inventory of the existing businesses in the CR zone and to return to the council for further review and discussions. And two. directed staff to work with the Planning Commission to study the CR zone and consider zoning ordinance amendments to modify the allowable land uses. at your June 28th meeting, the City Council discussed reconsideration of that June 21st direction to staff A motion was made for reconsideration and then was withdrawn. And the council then agreed to schedule a new agenda item to discuss a possible moratorium, again, on banks and financial services retail uses in the CR zone and an update on the three ground floor tenant spaces that were discussed at that meeting. Staff did complete a comprehensive inventory of existing businesses in the CR zone. And again, that's a comprehensive, all the side streets. Originally, in your June 21st meeting, we had looked, we had done a ground floor facing Caledonia count of all the businesses. This is more of a comprehensive inventory, including all ground floor, second floor, perhaps any third floor levels. We find that to be relevant to the specific discussion on whether to consider a moratorium of this particular type of use. Just a reminder of the general plan and the municipal code zoning for this area, the CR zone. the general plan encourages that this area be a mixed commercial and residential area, local residents serving commercial uses and the preservation of housing. Promote only those uses that will increase the diversity and economic vitality of local neighborhood commercial areas that serve the immediate neighborhoods. Again, local serving retail and service businesses where they are mutually compatible with residential and to provide a pedestrian oriented downtown experience. So banks and financial services retail is defined in our municipal code and it's defined as financial institutions providing service to the general public and maintaining hours of operation for at least five days per week for a minimum of eight hours per day, And it lists, it says, including banks and trust companies, lending and thrift institutions, credit agencies, et cetera. There are specific standard industrial classifications that are identified here. 60, 61, 62, 67, to help someone understand what type of financial institution would be a permitted use. |
| 02:43:27.16 | Danny Castro | Uh, Again, a comprehensive inventory was included in your packets. There was an Excel chart that was provided that listed every business, the type of business, identified whether they were residential or not. There was a total of 279 uses in the CR zone. at This is a table that was compiled from the comprehensive inventory to identify specific types of breakdowns, percentage of breakdowns. in three categories, all the uses in the CR zone, the ground floor uses in the CR zone, and the ground floor uses facing Caledonia. for The mix between residential and non-residential You have about a 50-50 split. um, 47% were residential, whereas 53% were everything that's non-residential, commercial, retail, restaurant, office. That is consistent with the general plan in that it's a mix of both commercial and residential. On the ground floor in the CR zone, you had a mix of represented 28% of residential on the ground floor with 72% commercial retail on the ground floor. Again, that is a policy in our general plan to Promote. retail on the ground floor with residential above, Amen. with the understanding that there is perhaps some residential that are on the ground floor. and then, What I found very interesting was the ground floor uses facing Caledonia and that Pretty much the same mix, 23% residential units on the ground floor with non-residential 77%, again consistent with the general plan and the zoning. The last item on each of these categories are the banks and financial services, of the total number of banks and financial services in the CR zone, it represents 6% of all the uses in the CR zone, which is the total number of 16. out of 279. In the ground floor uses in the CR zone, ground floor, I'm not sure. Banks and financial service uses represent 7% of all the uses in the CR zone 10. for ground floor uses facing Caledonia which was initially the concern at your June 21st meeting that there was a concern that a lot of ground floor uses facing Caledonia were being replaced by office or banks and financial services uses Currently, there are three. which represents four of all uses facing Caledonia. |
| 02:46:27.23 | Danny Castro | Here's just graphically how these percentages come about. with 46% residential, non-residential being 54%. of all uses in the CR zone. The percentage of banks and financial services, just graphically how that represents 6% of all uses, 7% that are on the ground floor, and then the percentage of those facing Caledonia that are banks and financial services representing 4%. |
| 02:47:02.55 | Danny Castro | Banks and financial services in the CR zone, what staff has discovered that there is no prevalence of banks and financial services in the CR zone. There's no pending occupancy use permit applications for banks and financial services uses in the CR zone. There are no conditional use permit applications filed or processed for office conversions in the last five years. We're not aware of any conversions or planned for conversions on Caledonia. an update on the three ground floor tenant spaces at the 501 uh, Unit A, Caledonia Street. It was a formal apparel business. Recently it was I4 Design. It's a kitchen and interior design office. Staff did contact the property owner, make them aware of the zoning regulations. We sent a compliance order requiring submittal of an occupancy use permit. If you recall, that's the first thing you do if you're a business coming into town. This site appears to be vacant. We continue to monitor the site and we'll proceed with code enforcement if, in fact, we understand that new use is operating without an occupancy use permit. 328 Unit A, Pine Street. an advertising agency currently, the name is Division of Labor. They expanded into a former yoga studio space. It is an office use. It does require approval of a CUP. Staff has met with the building representatives. The building owner is currently preparing the CUP application. 1621 Bridgeway. It was a former product research tenant. There does not appear to be any activity at the site, there's Bottles displayed on the shelves facing bridgeways. We notified the property owner of the current zoning regulations and continue to monitor the site. for 219 Caledonia, We were made aware from the tenant, Lily Shahabi, Lily Salon that that her lease space would not be extended Um, about this time, and so we notified the property owner of the current zoning regulations should she replace that tenant space. And at this time, there's been no occupancy use permit applied for at this ground floor tenant space, nor the neighboring space, which is Shampooch. We're not aware of any change or conversion. Staff is not aware of any other spaces in this CR zone that is planned or that has converted to office or that has been recently occupied as a bank financial service use. To establish a moratorium, it's under the authority of the California Government Code Section 65858. you It does authorize the city to adopt as an urgency measure an interim moratorium ordinance prohibiting any uses that may be in conflict with your general plan, specific plan, or zoning proposal, while the city is studying or intends to study a potential change or modification to the ordinance. Its findings that are required is that it must pose a current and immediate threat to the public health, safety, and welfare. and the approval of any other permits, required in order to comply would also pose a threat to the public health, safety, or welfare. So those are the findings that must be made in order to adopt moratorium. Maximum is two years. I believe this is something I had indicated at your last meeting, but just to be clear on how to establish a moratorium. And it requires four-fifths vote of the city council. The recommendation, there are a number of options the City Council has. is number one, direct staff to return to the council to initiate a moratorium on allowing banks and financial services comma retail uses in the CR zone at the next available meeting. or Two, direct staff to work with the Planning Commission to study the CR zone. and to consider zoning ordinance amendments to modify the allowable land uses. Three, do nothing, receive and file this report. So that concludes my report. I'm available to answer any questions. Can I say one thing? I want to acknowledge our summer intern, Ben Geffner. who The inventory would not have been completed by this time without great help from a summer intern. |
| 02:51:47.77 | Jill Hoffman | Is Mr. Geffner with us this evening? Perhaps you could stand, sir, and we can thank you properly. Thank you for your hard work. I'm looking at it right now. It's very small. Very small type. Very good. Thank you so much for your hard work on that. But this is, I mean, this is. Excellent job. |
| 02:51:52.80 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 02:51:59.48 | Danny Castro | Yeah. You're hard work on that. Excellent job. Thank you. And this is helpful information as we move forward with other big efforts of the city to just study the mix of uses. |
| 02:52:07.48 | Jill Hoffman | the city. Thank you. |
| 02:52:12.14 | Danny Castro | you |
| 02:52:12.19 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:52:12.29 | Jill Hoffman | Yes, Ray, you have a question? |
| 02:52:12.31 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 02:52:12.32 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:52:12.36 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 02:52:12.39 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 02:52:13.07 | Patricia Cornell | . |
| 02:52:14.79 | Ray Withy | Thank you, Danny, for that report. Okay, I want to zone in on the, sorry, I can't help myself. It is 10 o'clock. So let's go back to the definition of |
| 02:52:25.30 | Unknown | I can't help it. Thank you. |
| 02:52:26.65 | Chief of Police | 10 o'clock. |
| 02:52:32.29 | Ray Withy | It's the banks and financial services, right? So you can either go back to the summary of the table of the numbers. So I thought I knew Caledonia Street. Yeah, if we could stop there. I thought I knew Caledonia Street pretty well. Obviously I don't. So I'm scratching my head to try and figure out, What are the three... businesses that would classify as a bank or a financial service? Because I want to get to what's the definition of the bank and financial services, right? So one way to start is there are three businesses there that fall within that definition. Well, what are they? Because I can't think of a bank or financial service on Caledonia Street. I mean, I may be not just missing it. |
| 02:53:23.06 | Ray Withy | Allstate? There's one. I'll say the insurance guy. Tom Ryan. He's right next to you. |
| 02:53:29.81 | Ray Withy | Oh, yeah. Okay. you Okay. |
| 02:53:34.03 | Ray Withy | the Clark Group. |
| 02:53:34.99 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 02:53:42.11 | Ray Withy | I'm not. |
| 02:53:42.28 | Danny Castro | Across the basketball courts. Right. Right here. |
| 02:53:42.32 | Ray Withy | class. Right. So that's a retail serving financial institution, is it? |
| 02:53:53.54 | Danny Castro | You don't. I'm sorry. |
| 02:53:54.72 | Ray Withy | Because that's what the definition is, surely, a retail serving finance, like Wells Fargo. Or like, you know, something where you're going to go on off the street, they open the doors at 9 o'clock, you're going to walk in, and you're going to buy a financial product or something and walk out with it. having bought it. |
| 02:54:12.07 | Danny Castro | having bought it. Thank you. Thank you. And, Council Member, or Vice Mayor Withee, when we counted the number of banks' financial services uses, we didn't go to the extent of determining whether they were open from 9 to 5 and they received customer service on a daily basis. We just identified that it was because there were existing uses. |
| 02:54:31.27 | Ray Withy | Yeah, okay. So fair enough. If a new business came in Well, okay, sorry, Tom. Yeah, what was the third one? You said it was Allstate Capital Group and? Clark. And Clark. Clark Capital. Clark Capital, okay. |
| 02:54:47.62 | Danny Castro | back. Okay. |
| 02:54:52.48 | Danny Castro | I need to, I'll, I can look while you're. |
| 02:54:53.67 | Ray Withy | Yeah. I can look while you're here. Yeah, yeah, okay. |
| 02:54:55.20 | Danny Castro | Yeah, yeah. |
| 02:54:58.56 | Ray Withy | If a New business walks in, comes to the counter down there, and seeks, first of all, an occupational use permit, and they say there are financial services available, and they fall within this definition. You ask them, well, do they see customers? I'm assuming that they have to see customers there. So if they don't, would staff regard that as within the definition of an allowed use? If they're just a financial service that's using the space, but they're not actually a retail service servicing customers who walk in off the street. |
| 02:55:45.61 | Danny Castro | No. |
| 02:55:46.40 | Ray Withy | you wouldn't give them an occupational use permit. |
| 02:55:49.64 | Danny Castro | We would require them to apply for a conditional use permit. |
| 02:55:53.54 | Ray Withy | Okay. |
| 02:55:53.56 | Danny Castro | because it would be an office use. |
| 02:55:55.23 | Ray Withy | Right, so they would have to go in front of the Planning Commission to seek a CUP. Yes. If they were, but if they were, if Wells Fargo came in, and they met all the other, |
| 02:56:01.49 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 02:56:01.50 | Unknown | Yes. |
| 02:56:01.81 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 02:56:01.82 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 02:56:10.13 | Ray Withy | rules and regulations, you would not demand that they go and they be a CUP because they would be |
| 02:56:19.12 | Danny Castro | No, we would not. |
| 02:56:19.96 | Ray Withy | So we can really rely on the fact that they either have to see customers and be a retail operation, not just be in finance. |
| 02:56:20.35 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 02:56:29.25 | Peter Van Meter | Correct. |
| 02:56:29.33 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Okay. |
| 02:56:36.55 | Joe Weiner | And thank you again for the thorough survey. We were only expecting the three, and this is really helpful in dealing with this. So we have the three financial services, 4%. Do we have some sense of how many salons are there on Caledonia Street? Well, it's... Thank you. |
| 02:56:54.78 | Danny Castro | Thank you. 7 to 8, but I'm really guessing just from my count. |
| 02:56:59.60 | Joe Weiner | Thank you. |
| 02:56:59.70 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 02:56:59.81 | Joe Weiner | in the California. |
| 02:57:00.35 | Danny Castro | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 02:57:00.67 | Patricia Cornell | in the Aledonia. |
| 02:57:05.41 | Joe Weiner | All right. There's more. So four to eight, it gives some idea. That's close enough for this. BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS WE We look at it. I mean, as you put up, there's diversity and economic vitality. You know, it's a mix that we're looking at. And so, okay. |
| 02:57:23.30 | Jill Hoffman | Danny, at the last meeting we were talking about the definition of banks and financial services and how that doesn't really apply in the current, you know, century that we're in. So what, you know, arguably, |
| 02:57:44.22 | Jill Hoffman | arguably, You could have some sort of financial services company come in and say, well, we service customers. They're mostly on the computer. They're mostly over the phone. Our doors are open. I mean, they would have a foothold to say, we don't need your conditional use permit, right? because we fall under the definition. of banks and financial services retail. Did I have that right from the last meeting? That was a topic of discussion. |
| 02:58:08.59 | Danny Castro | I believe that the council did have some discussion about this definition and the relevance today to the type of finance institutions today. |
| 02:58:22.19 | Unknown | Okay. |
| 02:58:24.50 | Danny Castro | There was an example, for example, if I needed finance advice or portfolio advice, |
| 02:58:30.04 | Unknown | Thank you. Mm-hmm. |
| 02:58:30.44 | Danny Castro | Could I walk up to any one of these type of financial institutions and receive customer service? |
| 02:58:38.63 | Jill Hoffman | Right. Like a retail, like a retail financial, like the old style. I'm a bank. I want to go open up a bank account. Okay, I got it. |
| 02:58:44.99 | Danny Castro | God would be a permitted use. |
| 02:58:46.47 | Jill Hoffman | Yeah. Right, or Edward D. Jones or something. But we're talking about, I think, now sort of morphing into more... hedge fund or some sort of financial management group that's more akin to an office, but we're still kind of in this gray area right here. And I think that's what we're concerned about, that these ground, not necessarily, I don't think, second floor, but mainly the ground floor spaces are going to turn into less resident serving retail spaces and more into office spaces. So I thought we talked a little bit about that at the last meeting and that was a concern about how this ordinance was written. Do we, I mean, that's still a concern, right? I mean, that hasn't... That hasn't changed in my mind that that's still a problem about how we're defining banks and financial services retail in the current, you know, in the current atmosphere. So In my mind, that's still a concern and still something that we want to, that's part of the discussion here tonight. So I don't know what. What would your, you know, I mean, I think if somebody came up to your window and said, but you know, I'm a financial services, I have customers, my doors are unlocked. during the day, but I'm not necessarily seeing any customers. I mean, I think that you would still open yourself to the fact that they would be able to push that and say, give me my permit. Right? |
| 03:00:23.64 | Danny Castro | Yeah, I mean, I think we have to really apply this definition to the extent that the best that we can in terms of what the intent here was. And I think it was to ensure that this type of financial institution or use was actually receiving customers that people can walk in or make appointments to receive service. And I think that was, specifically identified as an allowed use and not having to go through you know, and not an office use, you know. |
| 03:00:55.25 | Unknown | Right. |
| 03:00:55.30 | Danny Castro | Thank you. All right. |
| 03:00:55.82 | Vicki Nichols | Thank you. |
| 03:00:56.80 | Danny Castro | that would be the difference when you have an office use that's not you know, really doesn't have doors open to the public, but essentially conducting their business without any customer service. know if the city council finds that this is something that needs to be further clarified or in fact redefined |
| 03:01:16.90 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 03:01:17.30 | Danny Castro | that's something that could be, you know, either having the Planning Commission review that |
| 03:01:23.36 | Jill Hoffman | OK. |
| 03:01:23.90 | Danny Castro | As an option? I'm not sure. you |
| 03:01:27.02 | Ray Withy | Yeah. |
| 03:01:29.74 | Danny Castro | . |
| 03:01:29.79 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 03:01:30.63 | Ray Withy | Madam Mayor, I think in that earlier discussion we had I came back to this one and actually flagged this definition as being a little problematic because you've got things like other investment companies. holding companies, holding but not predominantly operating companies. That is not what I had in mind or I would have in mind as a retail service. That's the problem. And that's the problem with that definition. We also have a very tight ordinance on office conversions, right, Danny? Yes. So you can't just take. |
| 03:02:11.56 | Danny Castro | Yes. |
| 03:02:16.40 | Ray Withy | Lily's salons. and turn it into an office. Is that correct? That's correct. So what would you have to do to turn it into an office? |
| 03:02:23.28 | Danny Castro | That's correct. |
| 03:02:27.32 | Danny Castro | you would have to apply for a conditional use permit You would have to go before the Planning Commission under a public hearing. Neighbors would be noticed within a 300 foot radius. And specific findings have to be made about its context, its harmony with the existing businesses in the area. |
| 03:02:35.23 | Ray Withy | Right. |
| 03:02:44.38 | Danny Castro | THE END OF I have a, you know, I have I can show you the list of findings, but those are the typical conditional use permit findings, which are pretty specific and And restrictive. |
| 03:02:52.14 | Ray Withy | AND I'M GOING TO BE time. |
| 03:02:54.55 | Danny Castro | in order to allow it. |
| 03:02:56.98 | Ray Withy | But if a business can claim it's one of those, even though it's really an office, That is a loophole through the office conversion part of our ordinance, is that correct? |
| 03:03:13.10 | Danny Castro | I don't know if it's a good rule, but it's a definition. |
| 03:03:13.64 | Ray Withy | I mean, if it could. If a company came in that was, they said, We're an investment company. There's a definition, it says other investment companies. So if an investment company walks in and says, We're going to take a little space. We're an investment company. And we don't have to apply for an office conversion. Because it says there, it's allowed. It's an investment company. So back when ever this was written, there was language in there that was clearly not consistent with just retail use. I mean, you've just got to read the words. It's just not consistent. And so I think that's a problem. Now, whether that merits a moratorium is on a different matter. But I think what we asked last time or two times ago was for this to go back to the planning commission to be reviewed. That's what we've already agreed upon. Right. Thank you. |
| 03:04:14.61 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 03:04:14.76 | Ray Withy | MAN. |
| 03:04:15.23 | Chief of Police | Thank you. Oh, sorry. Well, go ahead. |
| 03:04:17.93 | Joe Weiner | On the three financial services on Caledonia, do you know how long they've been there or any of them new? Do you have any sense of that? I mean, any data on that? |
| 03:04:27.79 | Danny Castro | I don't have any data on that. They could be, at least I would understand, greater than five years because there was no, We don't have any occupancy use permits from them coming in. |
| 03:04:39.26 | Joe Weiner | So you're saying that your understanding is that each of the three has been there longer than five years? |
| 03:04:44.24 | Danny Castro | I would say that because we researched all the occupancy use permits. There hasn't been any new ones coming in. |
| 03:04:51.21 | Joe Weiner | Right. Thank you. |
| 03:05:02.23 | Unknown | Okay. |
| 03:05:02.77 | Ray Withy | Yeah, so Danny, if I want to get around that, I would and had a |
| 03:05:02.78 | Unknown | Hopefully. |
| 03:05:10.70 | Ray Withy | thrift institution or lending, I could say to you, I'm opening up and I'm retail, and then two months later cut out the retail. Is that correct? |
| 03:05:21.18 | Danny Castro | You could if we found out. |
| 03:05:23.22 | Ray Withy | And that's where we're questioning the ability to skirt around something. |
| 03:05:30.17 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:05:30.61 | Danny Castro | Sure. Thank you. It's possible. |
| 03:05:33.16 | Ray Withy | But there's another thing. We can hear public comment later on, but I think I heard that one of the businesses has been there for a short time. Okay, and no occupancy use permit has been issued, therefore they just did it illegally. And we can throw them out. They did it illegally. |
| 03:05:56.14 | Jill Hoffman | 4. They're relying on some interpretation. |
| 03:05:59.33 | Ray Withy | But they need an occupancy use permit regardless, regardless of anything. |
| 03:06:03.96 | Danny Castro | I would need to look at this particular one. I did not focus on the second level financial institution as to whether they had an occupancy use permit or not. It used to be one. I would not venture to say that they're illegal. I just know that. |
| 03:06:12.78 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:06:12.83 | Ray Withy | or not. |
| 03:06:17.73 | Ray Withy | Yeah. I don't know. Prudential Financial Services used to be there. Is that right? Remember that? on the second floor. |
| 03:06:30.53 | Danny Castro | So it may have been, you know, Office uses are are allowed to continue to remain and be replaced by office uses. So that could have been the situation. We just didn't have any evidence of an occupancy user. |
| 03:06:41.89 | Ray Withy | I'M JUST SAYING THAT WAS A |
| 03:06:43.56 | Danny Castro | THE FAMILY. |
| 03:06:45.45 | Jill Hoffman | Okay. |
| 03:06:45.81 | Adam Politzer | Thank you. |
| 03:06:45.91 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. Any other council questions before we move on to public comment? Okay, public comment. Mayor, can I just... Yes. |
| 03:06:49.08 | Adam Politzer | I will ask you to ask the public comment. IT LOOKS LIKE THE THIRD FINANCIAL IS OLIVER CONSULTING, WHICH IS ON THE SEVENTH PAGE HERE, 104 |
| 03:06:58.28 | Unknown | That's correct. |
| 03:07:01.97 | Unknown | Yeah. Thank you. that. Thank you. |
| 03:07:06.65 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, public comment? Do we have any comment cards? Peter Van Meter approaching the podium. |
| 03:07:15.62 | Peter Van Meter | It was such a crowd, I forgot to fill out a card. Yes, it's true. |
| 03:07:19.96 | Ray Withy | Get in the queue. |
| 03:07:20.84 | Peter Van Meter | I'll just comment from about three decades as a commercial real estate agent dealing in the sale of retail properties in little neighborhood strips like ours all the way up to regional malls. Someone who wants to locate a store somewhere, they're going to look at the trade area, how many people are around, what's the profile, the demographics. They're going to be concerned about the size of their space, the amount of frontage, parking that they have, and all the rest of that. They're going to look at permitted uses. We have a resident serving neighborhood here. In other words, it's a very difficult situation for somebody to locate a successful retail business. So if people own buildings and they want to lease those buildings, they want to get a tenant who can pay them some rent and survive and stay in business for a while. So among the alternatives that Danny has outlined, in my opinion, you don't have an emergency that would require a moratorium. But I do believe that you ought to look at the zoning ordinance. And it ought to be looking at both addressing the alleged loopholes in this statement, but also the range of existing defined residential, resident serving uses in the CR zone, and see if that list needs to be brought up to date to in fact encourage a more vital resident serving neighborhood. where the kind of businesses that you can attract are ones that can operate on basically low margins. because of the characteristic of that neighborhood and the clientele that they're trying to serve. So that's a very sophisticated kind of process of reviewing the zoning ordinance. So I don't think that your discussion of sending that alternative, go back to planning commission and look at the zoning, should be limited to just this is what I'm trying to say. It should be an open question, let's reconsider. the profile of the CR district to make it a more resident serving vital neighborhood. Thank you. |
| 03:09:25.68 | Lily Shahabi | Hi. I've been 25 years in Caledonia Street, and always the first level, street level, was retail. Now we're losing three of them, actually. And it's not just for me, because I'm not going to get that spot anyway, because this guy is applying, and then withdraw for the office. So he's waiting for the time that I'm out of there and become, make it like office again. they have 15, at least 15 employees and they're expanding. So they're expanding to Shampoosh next year because Shampoosh has one year lease. So if you don't do moratorium now, we're going to lose all of those spaces. And it's not just for me, because I'm not going to be there. I'm looking for space. I really urge to get the moratorium, because that's what works for Caledonia. The street level is supposed to be retail. And now we are losing it. So I hope you consider that. |
| 03:10:45.33 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. Thank you. |
| 03:10:47.91 | Vicki Nichols | Thank you. |
| 03:10:47.96 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:10:48.03 | Vicki Nichols | . |
| 03:10:48.10 | Jill Hoffman | Yes. |
| 03:10:48.18 | Vicki Nichols | Thank you. |
| 03:10:53.14 | Vicki Nichols | This is Vicki Nichols, 30 plus resident of Caledonia Street, a resident serving street. Um... I think I've never looked at this definition closely and there are some problems here, but I think if we go back to about 2008, when we had, no, it was before that when the dot com, we had a flood of offices on the ground floor. Resident serving businesses were being pushed out because they could get more... It was not when it crashed. But there was a moratorium, if I remember, on offices in that zone. I don't know if that's been discussed, and I don't know if that's anywhere in the records, but I remember the Planning Commission doing something then. I agree with Lily. |
| 03:11:41.88 | Vicki Nichols | I guess we do have to look at the definition of resident serving. When I moved on that street, over 30 years ago, you can't probably believe this, but where Champoosh was was actually a stationary store, but then Office Depot, and things change, I get that. But I do respect Peter's opinion, but I also will say having lived next to, or very near Sushiron, and at one point Pine Street Papery, if you have a business that is popular, it's a destination point, so it isn't necessarily that you have to have just certain businesses and certain rents, et cetera. I don't necessarily agree that if an office comes in a service comes in and doesn't see clients, they're in office. They're not serving the residents. The service industry, the restaurants, I know there's a lot of salons, but they've been there. We have a great new market, Drivers Now, that brings tons of people in, that has created a community space. So whatever can be done to redefine the definition about what really is resident serving that's germane to the current uses, the way people are living now, but I really, I don't know that we need a moratorium, but we need to look at this, and I I hate to see businesses being lost because people, landlords can come in and get more rents. It's very sad for businesses. Thanks. |
| 03:13:18.27 | Jill Hoffman | you any other public comment nope back up here for discussion should i go first i might be in the minority on this one um i you know i think there is a problem with with the way that um that we've defined that and I THINK THAT that under the welfare section of moratorium, the welfare of the vibrancy of Caledonia, the welfare of the residents that live in this town, Thank you. idea of our general plan to preserve Caledonia as a resident serving street and businesses. You know, I feel comfortable that we're within that definition THE END OF THE A SHORT ONE WOULD PROBABLY BE IN ORDER, 45 DAYS IF WE NEED TO EXTEND IT FOR ANOTHER 45 DAYS TO WORK ON THIS DEFINITION TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE NOT leaving this loophole open for the type of financial services definition that would come in that but it was at it's actually an office. That just kills the that just kills the traffic it kills the culture it kills the you know the vibrancy of that neighborhood so I think that's really important to preserve. Caledonia Street and the businesses and the traffic down there but I might be in the minority based on comments I've heard. But anyway, that's my two cents. |
| 03:14:47.39 | Joe Weiner | Thank you. I'll give the... No, I think we got it right last time. We looked at this. We had some concerns. I agree with Peter, and I think we did it last time, that when we take this opportunity, we should look at all the definitions as well. But we said that we were going to, number one, do the survey, which we did, and thank you very much. That was ahead of time and really has helped in this discussion, and that we directed staff to work with the Planning Commission to study the Sierra Zone and to consider zoning ordinance amendments to modify the allowable land uses. That's broad. I think we had on the moratorium, I don't, I just, one is I'd like to just comment a little bit about financial services. We have to take a look at this, but the ordinance says there should be diversity and economic vitality. And we, so we to just have grocery stores or salons. We may need to have walk-in financial services. We have to look at that, so we don't want to overreact. But the most important part, we're only doing one thing tonight. We're looking at whether we can have a moratorium because we did, gave direction last time, and it says the council must make findings that banks and financial services retail pose a current and immediate threat to the public health, safety, and welfare. That's number one. There's no way when we have 3% and the three of them on there are over five years and there's no pending. And to make a determination that the use is in conflict with the general plan and zoning ordinance, which we've already said it isn't. So, you know, we are, you know, we can't, we have a zoning ordinance for a reason, and we go through an elaborate process to change it, and we can't just overlook. This is our way of putting the moratorium and overriding our ordinance. But I don't see any way we can make these findings. So I think we should, again, have staff go back to the Planning Commission and look at this first and every other use. And so I can't support a moratorium. |
| 03:14:48.50 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:15:07.21 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 03:15:07.30 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:16:51.86 | Chief of Police | Do you want to go? No. No. Okay. |
| 03:16:52.83 | Ray Withy | No. |
| 03:16:53.68 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:16:53.86 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:16:54.03 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:16:54.08 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:16:54.25 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:16:54.29 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:16:54.35 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:16:54.59 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Okay. Caledonia Street is, I mean it's in our general plan, is very simple that it's for residential and I, you know, people living there. and residential serving businesses. That's what we want Caledonia Street to be. That's what the general plan basically says it is. It says no offices on, no office conversions without basically a CUP in which there's some fairly strict findings. So if in fact we've got two issues here. The first is, Without the city knowing... Somebody converts, a retail business shuts down, somebody... puts a tenant in there, doesn't apply for an occupational use permit, they have an ongoing business, and they're there. And we know nothing about it until somebody complains. When somebody complains, Dan is going to go knocking on the door and say, you've got to come down here and get an occupational use permit. Oh, and by the way, you've done an office conversion. You've got to go and get CUP. So you've got to undo all of that and then come in front of the planning commission. Okay. So that's the first thing. Now that's nothing. A moratorium What do you want to do? have a moratorium to prohibit something that's illegal. That's ridiculous. That's completely ridiculous. It's illegal to begin with. You can't have a moratorium to stop something that you can't do anyway. OK. The only risk here is with this definition, people can do have a loophole to do office conversions without getting a CUP because they claim they're a financial service with an ill-crafted definition. That's the only issue. How many of those, not illegal ones, how many of those have occurred in the last five years? Zero. So if there's zero, there's hardly a crisis. that demands a moratorium. There's no activity to say there's a problem. None. unless I'm missing facts. |
| 03:19:25.35 | Jill Hoffman | to me |
| 03:19:25.81 | Chief of Police | you |
| 03:19:26.31 | Ray Withy | No, I get. |
| 03:19:26.97 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:19:26.99 | Ray Withy | Sorry, I want to make clear, but I don't want to see office conversions. So I don't want to see that loophole used, but it's not been used. |
| 03:19:27.00 | Jill Hoffman | Go ahead. |
| 03:19:27.34 | Chief of Police | THE FAMILY. |
| 03:19:27.43 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:19:27.49 | Chief of Police | Bye. Bye. |
| 03:19:27.85 | Jill Hoffman | I'm not sure. |
| 03:19:27.93 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 03:19:28.07 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:19:28.08 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 03:19:28.12 | Jill Hoffman | So, |
| 03:19:28.25 | Ray Withy | THE END OF |
| 03:19:39.63 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:19:39.73 | Ray Withy | you |
| 03:19:39.80 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:19:39.83 | Ray Withy | I don't know. |
| 03:19:40.54 | Jill Hoffman | Hold on, it's Herb's turn. |
| 03:19:40.77 | Ray Withy | on. Thank you. |
| 03:19:42.33 | Ray Withy | you |
| 03:19:42.36 | Ray Withy | Yeah. |
| 03:19:43.80 | Jill Hoffman | Yes. |
| 03:19:44.00 | Ray Withy | I think we didn't really get the answer that we wanted from the Planning Commission when we sent it back there. Okay, so now we have to be specific, send it back to the Planning Commission. And if they come up with the same thing as this, then we have to make a change. That has to be protected reasonably for retail, retail, local serving businesses. Or else it'll get, you might as well extend downtown, right on Caledonia Street. So I think we specify what we want from the Planning Commission to straighten that out. And if they can't, then they bring it up to us and we'll straighten it out. |
| 03:20:25.73 | Jill Hoffman | So, and I'm just gonna respond to the Councilor Vice Mayor with these comments in my position. So my understanding is that we have potentially one, one business that may have done this. We don't know because we haven't investigated yet, but the Capitol on the second floor in the last six months, whatever that name is. What was the name of the capital group? what the the the that one that one group on the second floor so there is an indication that there may be one and that And Ms. Shahabi has told us that the plan, her understanding is that her landlord is going to bring in a financial service and not only evict her or not renew her lease, but put pressure on Shampoo to leave as well. So that's the evidence that we have before us. And that's how I'm drawing my conclusion that a moratorium, a short one, not a long one, but a short one. And there would be, and I always look at also, right, my question is always what's the downside to, I'm not sure. There isn't any because you don't have any currently before you, but you would certainly project that we're not going to allow any going forward. So that's my sort of analysis on a short moratorium. |
| 03:21:46.16 | Joe Weiner | And let me point out something, though. When we don't have any evidence of any of these financial services coming in, and we focused on this. So to be intellectually honest, we would have to have a moratorium against everything until we had a full review that nothing else is going in because we don't know. So we don't have any evidence that this is. So you'd have to have a moratorium on everything, which I think would be actually quite detrimental. But anyway. |
| 03:22:11.62 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, intellectually, honestly, I don't see that that's necessary. I mean, the thing that we're concerned about right now is the loophole here where someone comes in and they use this finance, that Vice Mayor Withey described, that they use this as a loophole, and we say, no, we're going to do a moratorium on this because we need to clean this up before somebody comes in. Because somebody could come in tomorrow... And do their occupational use, and you would have to issue it. What would be the basis to say no? You would have to issue it, and then we'd be in the position of a fight later of changing this definition and having to unravel that business, which I wouldn't want to be in that position. The much stronger and safer position for the city is to say, we've stated our policy going forward, which is we don't want offices on the first floor unless you have a condition use permit. We've identified a problem that we have with one of our ordinances. We need to tighten it up. We're not going to allow anything... MEANING THE MORATORIUM FOR THE NEXT 45 DAYS UNTIL WE GET THIS CLEANED UP. THAT TO ME IS A PRUDENT WAY TO GO FORWARD. AND THAT'S WHAT I WOULD PROPOSE. |
| 03:23:16.93 | Joe Weiner | You know, I guess that... city attorney, we'd have to make findings that the banks and financial services pose a current and immediate threat to the public health, safety, and welfare. We have to make that finding to have a moratorium. Is that correct? That's what it says in the staff report. |
| 03:23:32.75 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, you'd have to find that there's a current threat to health, safety, and welfare in order to adopt a moratorium on something that you're then studying. I mean, you typically see it where there's applications coming in the door, and you have to stop it before they're processed, and you have to study what the issue is. We've done it twice since I've been here, once for medical marijuana dispensaries and the second for hotel condo conversions and both were with imminent projects being proposed and that's how I've seen it used not that we're hearing that it might happen. But you can also direct this specific definition to go to the planning commission at their next regularly scheduled meeting not tomorrow to reconsider this definition and that loophole that you're identifying could be closed relatively quickly also. |
| 03:24:23.70 | Ray Withy | When's the next planning commission besides tomorrow night? Thank you. |
| 03:24:26.81 | Mary Wagner | probably September. |
| 03:24:27.95 | Jill Hoffman | Yeah. That puts us back into the moratorium, right? Because someone could come in, but we're going to be We're not going to be meeting during August. So there would be no way. |
| 03:24:38.38 | Ray Withy | There would be no way. Well, you don't always have an emergency meeting. |
| 03:24:40.41 | Jill Hoffman | Well, some of us will be out of town. So, well, I mean, I just don't, to me, we've identified the problem. We've identified that what our policy is, I don't see any reason to |
| 03:24:42.20 | Ray Withy | So... |
| 03:24:43.19 | Unknown | Oh. |
| 03:24:52.83 | Jill Hoffman | to leave us sort of in a lurch or requiring some sort of emergency action when we know how we would react. To me, like I said, to me the prudent way to go would be WE'VE IDENTIFIED THE POLICY ISSUE. We've identified the problem. We have an indication that there may be businesses that are planning to do this exact thing that we've identified and so why wouldn't we do a moratorium? But that's my position. especially given our schedule. |
| 03:25:26.58 | Ray Withy | And as I said, we could always have an emergency. If it's a plan, and we're reading it correctly, that they're saying it's a threat, then we could always have an emergency meeting, whatever it is, if it comes down to that. I don't think we could turn around and say, those two places, we'll put a moratorium on just those two places. |
| 03:25:48.38 | Jill Hoffman | No, no, no, I agree with you. I absolutely agree that you wouldn't put in moratorium in those two places. You would just say, here's our policy, we've identified it, we're gonna put a moratorium until that we have a short moratorium, 45 days, until the planning to be the logical thing to do. |
| 03:26:04.70 | Joe Weiner | Thank you. And the evidence before us is one possible financial services, one possibly out of 279 It certainly doesn't, to me, rise to oppose a threat to the immediate threat to help public health, safety, and welfare. I can't make that finding. Thank you. Of course. |
| 03:26:26.01 | Jill Hoffman | Well, if you, okay, the immediate threat to the welfare is that we have an indication that someone's going to do this exact thing. So we've identified the welfare of the people that live along Caledonia Street and what we want Caledonia Street to be. That's defined. that. |
| 03:26:41.49 | Unknown | We have. |
| 03:26:43.49 | Jill Hoffman | looks like it's going to be a threat to that. We've identified that. We've identified a problem with our thing, with our with our ordinance. you know what? |
| 03:26:51.97 | Debbie | you |
| 03:26:52.44 | Jill Hoffman | you know, why would you not do a moratorium? You don't have to, you know, We get to decide. You know, what is an immediate threat? I think that we can decide that. |
| 03:27:03.12 | Unknown | Well, |
| 03:27:03.37 | Jill Hoffman | We've already decided this is a matter of |
| 03:27:03.58 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 03:27:08.10 | Jill Hoffman | importance to us and we have an indication that |
| 03:27:13.18 | Adam Politzer | Mayor Hoffman, I just want to clarify because of your comments there, it's really important |
| 03:27:13.68 | Jill Hoffman | What was it? |
| 03:27:19.30 | Adam Politzer | we recognize that the Community Development Department When we were told that they were going to put in another tenant, that we contacted them and let them know that if they had plans to do something, they had to meet this criteria. And so I think that they had an application in, and they withdrew it based on the city contacting them. So there isn't a gray area right now on our communication with the property owner. The property owner now knows the rules, and is obviously considering what choices it has with its tenants or future tenants. |
| 03:27:59.74 | Jill Hoffman | What did they want to put in there, Danny, when you talked to them? |
| 03:28:06.43 | Danny Castro | It was a financial institution that said that they would be receiving customers. |
| 03:28:09.45 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:28:12.93 | Jill Hoffman | And then they were through that. |
| 03:28:13.57 | Danny Castro | for two weeks. |
| 03:28:13.94 | Ray Withy | months. |
| 03:28:14.08 | Danny Castro | They withdrew it. |
| 03:28:15.26 | Jill Hoffman | Okay. |
| 03:28:15.60 | Danny Castro | Yeah. |
| 03:28:16.41 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, well right now, you know, we would have a hard time denying that if they, put it in under this ordinance, right? Well, I, you know, I've stated my position, so. |
| 03:28:27.55 | Ray Withy | to stay to my position, so I. what measures Under any condition, they would still have to come in for licensing, is that correct? Or any? What? They just can't put something up there. |
| 03:28:43.69 | Danny Castro | Right, yeah, the occupancy use permit is there is a form they fill out, describing their business, any business requires that, any business coming in to the city, requires that to determine their allowable use. And then once it's determined they're allowable, then they're able to get their business license and then operate. |
| 03:29:04.01 | Ray Withy | So there's no way that they could just come in and open and just say, hey, that's the rule. |
| 03:29:10.24 | Danny Castro | They're not supposed to, no, it's not permitted. |
| 03:29:13.75 | Ray Withy | And they've been made notice of that, is that correct? I've had. For both, I guess one owner for both pieces? |
| 03:29:17.70 | Danny Castro | I've had... |
| 03:29:22.76 | Danny Castro | Correct. I've had about three conversations with this property owner. Okay. And an email for tonight's meeting as well. |
| 03:29:24.25 | Ray Withy | conversation. OK. |
| 03:29:29.81 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 03:29:29.83 | Ray Withy | Okay. I mean. |
| 03:29:30.84 | Danny Castro | Thank you. |
| 03:29:39.87 | Unknown | Thank you. Thank you. you Thank you. |
| 03:29:42.96 | Jill Hoffman | Okay. |
| 03:29:43.99 | Lily Shahabi | Bye. |
| 03:29:44.06 | Jill Hoffman | Bye. |
| 03:29:44.07 | Lily Shahabi | Bye. |
| 03:29:44.09 | Jill Hoffman | I'm not. |
| 03:29:44.17 | Lily Shahabi | Thank you. |
| 03:29:44.31 | Jill Hoffman | . |
| 03:29:44.34 | Lily Shahabi | . |
| 03:29:44.80 | Jill Hoffman | I can just go ahead. Am I? Okay. Go ahead. Sure. Yeah, 2-9 short. |
| 03:29:44.98 | Lily Shahabi | I can keep going in. Am I? Okay. Go ahead. Sure. Yeah, short. The 290 Caledonia, which is CARP capital, they applied for use of permit, permit use, and As soon as they find out that I put petition, they withdraw. So they're waiting for August for me to leave the place, and then they apply again. So if you don't do temporary moratorium. then. with it. get the place. Then you have to go through I don't know what else you can do. |
| 03:30:26.67 | Unknown | Okay. |
| 03:30:27.68 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:30:27.80 | Lily Shahabi | Thank you. |
| 03:30:32.77 | Lily Shahabi | Yes. |
| 03:30:34.63 | Ray Withy | So that's, that can feel easy. In other words, we still can step in in September. |
| 03:30:40.06 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:30:40.08 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:30:41.99 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, so I'm |
| 03:30:47.20 | Jill Hoffman | So, okay, so we're at the point where I think |
| 03:30:49.94 | Ray Withy | We have a choice. You either have an emergency meeting, that's the case, or September, we get this to the Planning Commission with something back, and, or if we see that that's gonna take something, then we will respond to a possible shutdown. |
| 03:31:09.19 | Jill Hoffman | I'm thinking that if I made a motion for moratorium, it wouldn't pass. |
| 03:31:14.02 | Ray Withy | It's not necessary at this time, especially since she's there until the end of August. If she was out of there by August 1st, then I'd say there's jeopardy of someone just trying to shift in. But, you know, what is going to take place in the first, what are they, moving in September? |
| 03:31:30.94 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, how about if I do this? How about this will make it cleaner? Okay, so I'm going to do a motion for a 45-day moratorium on... financial services in the commercial residential zone along Caledonia Street. Do I have a second? |
| 03:31:45.49 | Ray Withy | Well, before we do that, where does 45 days come from? How does that help you? I know that's the, I mean, what are you trying to get to? Are we trying to get to the Planning Commission working on that definition? And by the way, I agree with Peter, but that's why we're having the general plan, is to look at the whole of the commercial zoning in all of the commercial areas, right? Because we want to make sure we preserve Caledonia in particular, but you know. |
| 03:32:06.89 | Unknown | MRS. |
| 03:32:16.35 | Ray Withy | Is the goal to say We're worried about any loopholes in this definition, therefore we want to put a temporary thing in place to plug that until the Planning Commission's worked on it. And even though we know we've got to do a comprehensive thing in the general plan, right now this is the one loophole that can cause a problem with office conversions. Because it's the office conversions that is the important thing. It's not the financial services, it's the office conversions. |
| 03:32:46.96 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:32:47.07 | Ray Withy | And it's the loophole that's there that could create an office conversion that we otherwise would not allow. That's the problem. |
| 03:32:47.54 | Jill Hoffman | and it's the loophole that's there. |
| 03:32:53.17 | Jill Hoffman | Exactly. Right, that's exactly it. |
| 03:32:55.30 | Ray Withy | That's the problem. |
| 03:32:55.98 | Jill Hoffman | My position is you know We don't want any shenanigans until We get a DEFINITIVE ANSWER FROM THE PLANNING COMMISSION. WE'VE IDENTIFIED THIS PROBLEM. WE'VE IDENTIFIED AT LEAST TWO PIECES OF PROPERTY, right now that are under threat of this type of conversion. And so why create any ambiguity? Let's just put a moratorium down. There's no question you're not going to be able to do it in the next 45 days. |
| 03:33:24.00 | Ray Withy | I'm going to be able to do that. Okay, I could agree with you except for the precedent you set. |
| 03:33:28.97 | Jill Hoffman | Which one? |
| 03:33:29.62 | Ray Withy | Well, the precedent of moratorium is a big thing. It's a big deal. |
| 03:33:34.60 | Jill Hoffman | Total stock. |
| 03:33:35.48 | Ray Withy | Thank you. It's not a Well, that's why it's short. That's why I'm only suggesting |
| 03:33:38.35 | Jill Hoffman | That's why I'm only suggesting 45 days. Wait. |
| 03:33:39.44 | Ray Withy | 45 days. When is our first meeting in September? |
| 03:33:47.90 | Ray Withy | Once again, as I said, you're the man, you can call an emergency meeting. Especially. It wouldn't warn, I mean, one of the dangers- If you feel that August is now, August 31st has passed, and all of a sudden, there's some movement down there. |
| 03:33:53.18 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 03:33:53.20 | Joe Weiner | I, The danger is... |
| 03:34:04.89 | Ray Withy | I'm |
| 03:34:05.65 | Joe Weiner | I don't know if that's, the problem we have is this basically is one piece of property, I don't know about the second one, and it's a dangerous precedent to get involved and have a moratorium to get involved, and there's really no evidence. I mean, there's speculation that may go in there. |
| 03:34:06.63 | Ray Withy | that is. |
| 03:34:19.54 | Jill Hoffman | I'm not right. But it's just because of one piece of property is because we've identified a problem and we have identified a piece of property as evidence of that problem. And so why why create like I said why create ambiguities of other people that may try to come in right now. We don't really have any authority to say no. |
| 03:34:21.67 | Joe Weiner | It's total speculation. |
| 03:34:41.82 | Jill Hoffman | I mean, without a moratorium, we put ourselves in a less defensible position because we've now said... We have this problem, we've identified it, But we're not going to do anything about it right now. I mean, the better position for the city is to say, We have identified a problem. We're going to put a hold on these things until the Planning Commission has a chance to come back to us with a cleaned up version of this idea. I mean, to me, that's the best position for the city to be in. Is that you don't want to be in a position where you kind of have this gray area where we've stated this policy, but anybody could, that's not, That's not the current ordinance. So the way to deal with that is to say there's a moratorium. You can't, you know. So that's, and then it's clear, everybody's rights are clear when somebody comes in and wants to do that type of business. |
| 03:35:31.04 | Ray Withy | but- |
| 03:35:35.88 | Ray Withy | Madam Mayor, could I just ask the city attorney question? |
| 03:35:39.11 | Jill Hoffman | Sure. Question. |
| 03:35:40.03 | Unknown | OF COURSE. |
| 03:35:41.30 | Ray Withy | Um... Okay, let's imagine that, or let's assume that in fact this is a bigger problem we realize, and that this definition could cause some immediate harm to Caledonia Street. Let's assume that. What's the earliest that we could real, because this is an audience change, needs two hearings, right? So what's the earliest we could get this back with considering the fact that staff has to try and figure out how to come up with a new definition. Then we've got to get to the Planning Commission, only for one hearing, I think. Then up to here for two hearings. Then 30 days, right? What's the timeline? |
| 03:36:31.64 | Mary Wagner | So standard ordinance adoption, we're not in the moratorium world, correct? |
| 03:36:35.17 | Ray Withy | No, we're standard or if we want to change that definition. |
| 03:36:38.30 | Mary Wagner | Um... I think the quickest we could do it would be to bring something to the planning commission in September. and then up to the council potentially at your second meeting in September if the planning commission was able to do it early enough in advance of that meeting. Second reading for you guys would be in October, and it would go into place 30 days after that. |
| 03:37:00.46 | Ray Withy | Okay, so 45 days doesn't help you. So it's got to be at least 90. |
| 03:37:05.61 | Mary Wagner | Well, just sorry to interrupt Mr. Vice Mayor, the whole, the timing on a moratorium is the initial period can't be longer than 45 days unless you've noticed it in a particular way. We don't have time to do that between now and your meeting on the 26th. |
| 03:37:15.88 | Unknown | Bye. |
| 03:37:16.04 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:37:16.19 | Unknown | THE FAMILY. |
| 03:37:21.07 | Mary Wagner | Um, If you directed us tonight to bring a moratorium back to you, we would do that on the 26th. The whole purpose of a moratorium is it goes into effect immediately, and the short time frames are because you don't have the noticing done that you typically do with other ordinances. In order for you guys to continue that moratorium to give you the time you were just referring to, you would have to meet again, and we would have to have noticed that meeting and that ordinance adoption and then you could put it in place for a much more lengthy period of time but you're going to run out of that 45 days probably what is that we might be able to get to your first meeting in September But I think we just miss it. Right. |
| 03:38:06.58 | Jill Hoffman | So you would do the initial 45-day moratorium and then It could be extended THEIR OWNERS. |
| 03:38:17.70 | Mary Wagner | Yeah, and the first one, I mean, you end up two years is the max you can do on any moratorium. But the critical time period is that first one, and that we'd be able to get back to you |
| 03:38:21.73 | Jill Hoffman | MOTOR. Thank you. |
| 03:38:21.97 | Unknown | of the... |
| 03:38:22.05 | Jill Hoffman | Yeah. |
| 03:38:29.26 | Mary Wagner | for an extension with the appropriate notice given. |
| 03:38:34.05 | Jill Hoffman | So I'm just looking. So that would get us to the first, 45 days would get us to the first. City Council meeting on the 13th. |
| 03:38:43.45 | Mary Wagner | Well, 26 and five is 31, right? That's so five days in July, 30 days in August is 35. That gets you, 45 gets you to September 10th with my quick back of my napkin math. |
| 03:38:44.11 | Jill Hoffman | than five is more. |
| 03:38:58.55 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 03:38:58.58 | Jill Hoffman | So then how would you bridge that gap between the 10th and the 13th? |
| 03:39:02.26 | Mary Wagner | You'd have to continue your meeting on the 26th to a date in the future to consider that next item. Because I'd have to look to see if you can adopt, I believe you can adopt a moratorium at a special meeting, and that's just semantics, whether it's a regular meeting or a special meeting. You'd have to have another city council meeting before September 13th. |
| 03:39:15.93 | Unknown | whether, |
| 03:39:16.37 | Unknown | I'm going to go. |
| 03:39:21.47 | Unknown | OK. The Press. |
| 03:39:25.55 | Mary Wagner | The point of a moratorium is you're not giving notice of a modification to your zoning ordinance. You're saying this is so immediate and urgent, we can set aside the noticing requirements of the government code and just put this in place. And then once you've done that, you have 45 days to think about whether you'd still need it. If you need more time, you didn't have enough time to consider the problem that you wanted fixed. |
| 03:39:31.41 | Unknown | you're saying. |
| 03:39:51.25 | Mary Wagner | and then you need to continue that moratorium to keep that block in place, you have to provide the statutory notice under the government code so that everybody is aware and can come in and tell you whether or not you should continue to do that. So the whole point is it gives you a period of time to study a problem. Thank you. |
| 03:40:09.43 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 03:40:10.44 | Mary Wagner | And if it's so immediate that you can't notice it, get it out in accordance with the government code, then you only have 45 days for it to be in place until you have an opportunity to notice it. |
| 03:40:20.34 | Joe Weiner | Mary. May I ask another question legally, Danny? They need an occupancy use permit anyway, right? I take it. And you have to give that as a matter of course? So let me just ask you, and we can't put a moratorium on tonight. We have to do it next time, or we could tonight. You can't tonight. |
| 03:40:38.05 | Mary Wagner | We can't tonight. No, we don't have anything for you. |
| 03:40:40.44 | Joe Weiner | Let me just ask, so if they came in tomorrow and put in for their occupancy use permit, and we get a moratorium next week, does that override it or are they already in? That's a question I have. |
| 03:40:54.25 | Mary Wagner | If they are allowed to occupy with just an occupancy permit because it's a permitted use in your zoning ordinance and they meet that definition, if they came in before you adopted the moratorium and that permit was issued, they're permitted. |
| 03:41:08.02 | Joe Weiner | that day. |
| 03:41:11.31 | Mary Wagner | Just a permit. The permit's been issued. |
| 03:41:13.23 | Joe Weiner | and we have to issue it the first day? |
| 03:41:15.17 | Mary Wagner | Is there a noticing requirement on an occupancy permit, Danny? No, it's like a zoning check. Like we said, okay, we looked and you are a permitted use. You meet the definition. Here's your occupancy permit. So they've met the requirement of the zoning code. |
| 03:41:19.64 | Joe Weiner | She said, okay. |
| 03:41:27.91 | Joe Weiner | Okay, so we have no discretion on that. |
| 03:41:30.66 | Mary Wagner | No, that's the whole point of a permitted use. If somebody comes in and the community development director doesn't believe they meet the definition, |
| 03:41:31.15 | Joe Weiner | That's the whole thing. |
| 03:41:37.28 | Mary Wagner | then he would deny it and that would get kicked. That could be appealed to the planning commission. |
| 03:41:38.36 | Joe Weiner | Yeah. |
| 03:41:41.63 | Joe Weiner | But the moratorium is only going forward, once they got the- |
| 03:41:45.11 | Mary Wagner | In that situation, that's correct. If somebody files an application for another type of development permit, that's a discretionary permit like a conditional use permit. that's a different discussion. Just because an application's on file doesn't mean that they are entitled to be processed. That's the way it usually works. Some major development application comes in. That's what you see the court cases about. And then you put a block on it because it's not, doesn't meet with the community's concerns. And then you study the problem. the applications on hold until the problem is studied and resolved, but for no longer than two years. |
| 03:42:21.88 | Jill Hoffman | So. So this is... I mean, this is my problem, and this is why I think we need the moratorium, is because of that issue. It's a use permit. So they come and they pull the permit, and they're in there. And then now what do we do? Now we can't unravel that. So that's why we need the moratorium. |
| 03:42:43.06 | Ray Withy | And so what's the difference between tonight and next week? |
| 03:42:47.46 | Mary Wagner | Well, we have to draft the moratorium with the findings and to bring it back to you for consideration between now and noon tomorrow. |
| 03:42:51.09 | Ray Withy | Oh, I see. |
| 03:42:55.78 | Ray Withy | Got it. Oh, okay, got it. So that's. So when's as soon as they could bring, if they had wanted to get an occupancy permit, when's as soon as they would come? They could come in anywhere now? They're watching right now. |
| 03:43:07.48 | Jill Hoffman | anywhere now. |
| 03:43:08.84 | Chief of Police | Bye. |
| 03:43:09.97 | Ray Withy | Well, one of them. |
| 03:43:14.31 | Ray Withy | No two, kid. |
| 03:43:17.95 | Ray Withy | So, Madam Mayor, it seems to me that there's a balancing act here, which is, is the danger of this happening, and we let effectively an office conversion happen through this. versus basically the precedent of I don't even know there's a problem there. And we're issuing a moratorium, which is a big thing, where I'm not quite sure there's a problem. How do you balance it? You made the point, well, what's the downside? |
| 03:43:55.25 | Jill Hoffman | I see a problem. You may not see the problem, I see the problem. I see that we've identified the problem. And I think that it's incumbent upon us to act on it. |
| 03:44:04.14 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:44:04.33 | Jill Hoffman | and keep our city, like I said, in the most defensible position that we can to defend against this type of conversion. |
| 03:44:11.06 | Joe Weiner | But it... But don't forget, every time in the zoning code, someone finds an ambiguity and it applies to them, they can come and say, and they'll probably be right because there's all kinds of ambiguities and all things. And so every time we're going to be faced with, and we've actually had three hearings on this already. And it's for one property with speculative. I mean, that's the problem. |
| 03:44:33.67 | Jill Hoffman | But that's the example, right? That's not the only property that I'm concerned about. I'm concerned about all of Caledonia Street. And I'm concerned about- |
| 03:44:40.19 | Joe Weiner | I'm not given anything else in five years. |
| 03:44:41.96 | Jill Hoffman | Well, I don't know. We got a capital group we may need to go take a look at. So that's my motion is to that we vote to have, that we impose a moratorium on Caledonia Street. preventing that we're going to have more time allowing banks and financial services retail use in the CR zone at the next |
| 03:45:10.54 | Ray Withy | Do you have to get a super majority for this vote or for just next week's vote? |
| 03:45:14.59 | Mary Wagner | You're just agendizing an item, so no. You need it when you actually put the moratorium in place. So you're directing staff to return with the moratorium for your consideration. |
| 03:45:23.33 | Jill Hoffman | And then at the next one, we would do the four-fifths vote. THE FAMILY. |
| 03:45:26.96 | Mary Wagner | Right. |
| 03:45:27.03 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. I'm going to take the vote |
| 03:45:27.98 | Mary Wagner | meeting. |
| 03:45:29.24 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:45:29.26 | Mary Wagner | Tonight you're directing staff and voting on whether you want it to come back. And then if it comes back, when it comes back, then you would need a four-fifth vote to put it in place. |
| 03:45:37.93 | Jill Hoffman | Oh, so we don't need a motion. We need a motion. |
| 03:45:41.63 | Mary Wagner | TO DO THAT. |
| 03:45:41.97 | Jill Hoffman | All right then, motions on the table. Thank you. Is there a second? |
| 03:45:46.93 | Ray Withy | I am not sure that this is the right thing to do. But I'm going to second your motion. |
| 03:45:54.13 | Unknown | All in favor? |
| 03:45:56.11 | Ray Withy | Well, you're going to have to do a roll call. |
| 03:45:57.24 | Unknown | Oh, sorry, do a roll call. |
| 03:46:04.14 | Unknown | Councilmember Weiner. |
| 03:46:04.24 | Ray Withy | Thanks. |
| 03:46:05.37 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:46:05.49 | Ray Withy | Thank you. Thanks. Well... I mean, 45 days can't hurt, so I'll vote yes. |
| 03:46:14.79 | Unknown | Council member Theodora. |
| 03:46:16.71 | Joe Weiner | I look at these findings and being a lawyer, I can't even come close to making that finding. That it poses a current and immediate threat to the public health safety and welfare. I can't do it. No. |
| 03:46:22.65 | Unknown | It is. |
| 03:46:30.55 | Unknown | Vice Mayor Withey. |
| 03:46:31.86 | Joe Weiner | Yes. |
| 03:46:33.40 | Unknown | air hop. |
| 03:46:34.23 | Jill Hoffman | Yes. All right, motion carries. Again, there'll be another vote next week. So, okay, moving on, rocketing through our... We were ahead of time. All right, so now we are, that was our last business item. into section 7 City manager reports, council member reports, city council appointments, and other council business. This is going to be very exciting. Yes. |
| 03:47:09.85 | Adam Politzer | No, I have nothing exciting to report, but happy to answer any questions from the Council. |
| 03:47:15.18 | Jill Hoffman | Any questions from the council? Any public comment on the city manager's? THAT INFORMATION. OKAY. COUNCIL MEMBER COMMITTEE COMMITTEE REPORTS. DO WE HAVE ANY COMMITTEE REPORTS? done. Okay, appointments to boards and commissions. This is going to be the exciting part. Appointments to the library board of trustees. And I have Nominations. Maybe. |
| 03:47:48.44 | Jill Hoffman | It looks to me that the library board was conceived and formed in 1906. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Very successful, one of our most important volunteer positions here in the city. So we have three vacancies of people that have terms that have expired. and so we had six people, six fantastic people actually apply for this. My three nominations for these three positions are Nora Sawyer, Robert Woodrum, and Gene Walker Harvey. And does anybody else have any other nominations? |
| 03:48:35.24 | Joe Weiner | We also have to, we may want to reappoint Dan Brokob to the second term, and then we can appoint an alternate as well. |
| 03:48:48.82 | Jill Hoffman | Okay. |
| 03:48:49.75 | Joe Weiner | You want me to, can I follow on with that? Sure. |
| 03:48:52.10 | Jill Hoffman | Sure. |
| 03:48:53.31 | Joe Weiner | Well, I would second or support the three nominations the mayor made, and I would nominate Diane Brogob for reappointment for a second term to expire in July of 2019. And I would nominate Linda Samuels as an alternate. |
| 03:49:12.46 | Jill Hoffman | but that's I think that's a great idea okay do we need to do a |
| 03:49:16.80 | Ray Withy | No. |
| 03:49:18.17 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, all right. |
| 03:49:19.23 | Unknown | you |
| 03:49:19.30 | Debbie | their |
| 03:49:20.51 | Jill Hoffman | Yes. |
| 03:49:21.85 | Debbie | I believe there is one loop in all of this. I'm reading. I'm reading Lily's. staff report and it says that one of the positions is to expire in July of 2018. And then the balance are all 2019. Because you have Dale Barnes who resigned from a position with a term. |
| 03:49:49.59 | Jill Hoffman | So we had, so I had, so Dale Barnes. So I had three open positions, right? Which we've said, Nora, Robert, and Jean. Yes. |
| 03:49:57.67 | Debbie | which we've said. Yes. Right? One of those, if you are appointing... Diane reappointing Diane through 2019, one of your three needs to shift to a 2018. |
| 03:50:16.56 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:50:16.64 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 03:50:16.69 | Jill Hoffman | I WANT TO DO THAT. |
| 03:50:19.39 | Unknown | Yeah. |
| 03:50:19.69 | Debbie | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 03:50:21.97 | Jill Hoffman | . |
| 03:50:23.05 | Unknown | Good luck with that. |
| 03:50:24.00 | Jill Hoffman | Closure eyes. |
| 03:50:24.91 | Ray Withy | Thank you. |
| 03:50:24.94 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:50:24.98 | Ray Withy | Close your eyes and stick a pit in. |
| 03:50:25.63 | Unknown | THE CITY IS A LITTLE BIT OF |
| 03:50:25.99 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. Thank you. So let's do |
| 03:50:29.89 | Joe Weiner | THE LAST WEEK. I mean, we're the city council. I mean, can't we just say that they're all 2019? |
| 03:50:37.43 | Jill Hoffman | THE END OF THE END OF THE |
| 03:50:37.63 | Joe Weiner | Do we have to listen to Lily on this or what? |
| 03:50:37.75 | Jill Hoffman | Do we have to listen to Lily on this? Can we just do them all for the same? |
| 03:50:47.35 | Jill Hoffman | That's okay, let's just do that. |
| 03:50:50.03 | Mary Wagner | equal. |
| 03:50:50.63 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:50:53.65 | Mary Wagner | Sorry, jumping in here. I know that in the past there's been concern that when you don't stagger their terms, everybody turns out at the same time. |
| 03:51:01.53 | Unknown | The Press. That's okay. |
| 03:51:03.06 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 03:51:03.08 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:51:03.10 | Mary Wagner | That's okay. |
| 03:51:03.79 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. They'll want to extend. It's a library. They love it. |
| 03:51:05.81 | Mary Wagner | Thank you. |
| 03:51:07.43 | Jill Hoffman | Who wouldn't want to be on the library board? But you bring up a very good point, Mary. Thank you for bringing that to our attention. Okay. It's after 10 o'clock. It's almost 11. Okay. So we're going to make them all for 2019. in my unlimited power. And Linda as the alternate. |
| 03:51:27.18 | Ray Withy | Is it a full moon tonight? |
| 03:51:30.72 | Jill Hoffman | there's a full moon and there is consensus. future 10 items Anybody? |
| 03:51:39.26 | Chief of Police | Yeah. |
| 03:51:40.39 | Jill Hoffman | Thank you. |
| 03:51:40.42 | Ray Withy | Yes. |
| 03:51:42.40 | Chief of Police | hate that. |
| 03:51:43.39 | Ray Withy | No. So this is future agenda. Yes. Okay. Now, I don't want to sort of stir the pot here. |
| 03:51:45.86 | Chief of Police | the |
| 03:51:46.03 | Unknown | Yes. |
| 03:51:46.23 | Chief of Police | Thank you. |
| 03:51:46.25 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:51:51.21 | Ray Withy | But I would, and so this is sort of a future agenda item. What I'd like to... to see is in the fall, after our season's sort of winding down, obviously we're going to have some sort of feedback and final sort of tally is to have all the bicycle stuff and everything's gone and so on. |
| 03:52:13.48 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:52:14.53 | Ray Withy | I think that in the fall, we should as a council asks the question what is, and ask the bicycle and pedestrian advisory committee to also ask the question, whether we should change their charter to actually include or to modify their charter to include the fact that we want the Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Committee to also work on policy advice to us for means to reduce congestion downtown. |
| 03:52:54.64 | Unknown | Mm-hmm. |
| 03:52:55.08 | Ray Withy | as opposed to just manage congestion. The Bicycle and Pedestrian Committee may come back and say, no way, we don't want to do that. That's not our, you know, and we would have to then decide, as a council, is it something we want someone to do? I think it's a worthy discussion in the fall once we see how this season went. So that's not immediate. That's sort of down. That's probably near the end of the year, but enough time to work through so that we can start thinking through, but maybe some more different policies for next year. |
| 03:53:34.26 | Ray Withy | That's a lot of the end of the season here. It should be critiqued for us anyway, what to do. |
| 03:53:40.47 | Jill Hoffman | Okay, any other future 10 items? |
| 03:53:42.01 | Joe Weiner | We do. Well, it's back on this moratorium issue. We're going to consider it next week. We've already decided that it's going to go to the Planning Commission. We did that back on June 21st. And I don't know if we gave the, I'd like to ask the direct staff to get it on the Planning Commission's agenda as soon as possible, get that process started. |
| 03:53:56.17 | Unknown | Thank you. |
| 03:53:56.22 | Unknown | Oh. |
| 03:54:04.82 | Unknown | that Thank you. Agreed. |
| 03:54:07.49 | Joe Weiner | And one other thing, if I may, and we might deal with it, but And I think the Planning Commission, if for some reason we'd have more, I would like to see if they had a recommendation relating to a moratorium as well. I mean, even though we might supersede it if we pass one, but I'd like to add that in and get that process rolling, because... |
| 03:54:27.92 | Jill Hoffman | I think that's a valuable question. Because the question about whether or not it's extended, right? We're going to extend the moratorium up to two... yeah right exactly right no no no you're exactly right that's exactly right so okay any other features and items Okay, that's it. That's a wrap. Well done. |
| 03:54:48.78 | Unknown | I'll get a bit. |
| 03:54:50.56 | Jill Hoffman | Oh. |